June 25, 2021 - 8:56pm
Mashing malts - Using {wort] in recipe?
Reading through Stanley GInsberg's book and looking over some formulas that use rye or barley malt; has anyone thought to mash the crushed grain, and use the extract/mash liquor as part of the liquid for the bread?
Having sold off virtually all my brewer's equipment I no longer have the ability to mill grains for brewing purposes, but was piqued by the thought of mashing the malt v. milling it to flour, sifting it,, and incorporating it as a dry component.
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Sounds like scalding, very commonly employed in rye bread. Improves flavour, aroma, texture and prolongs freshness. Look up recipes for Borodinsky, the most famous bread including this process (I recommend checking out Rus Brot videos on YouTube).
Scalding is done with flour, not crushed grain, but I think the idea is the same. I have no experience with brewing though, maybe I misunderstand something.
Thanks Ilya. Scalding is totally unknown to me - first time I came across the concept was in Ginsberg's book, which I'm just tucking into these days. I'm honestly totally geeked about this and rye in general, now. Probably where I got the idea, except here I'd be extracting as much as possible and discarding the grain and rather than using boiling water and a sit, I'd be "mashing in" and holding a mash temp (or temps - like a "step mash"), to optimize for a-and b-amylases. My guess is the scalding does much the same thing - except it seems to me you'd be denaturing a ton of amylases before they'd have any chance to saccharify. I know you know all this. Just curious.
-ah, nevermind. I just read about the process specifically in the Ginsberg book (p. 58-59) and see indeed, that's the purpose (in addition to softening and better hydrating the whole grains). Do you typically use the scald water as well, then?
In a big production environment simply mixed boiling water with the flour in a huge batch will take a very long time to cool down, and work well for saccharification. At home it's better to actually maintain a ~65°C temperature using an oven or some other setup, since the weight is small and would cool down much quicker. And typically you would add some of the flour or the diastatic malt as an enzyme after all mixing is done, so it's not denatured, or not use only boiling water - so the final temperature is around 65°C.
You kind have to use the water - it's like a liquidy paste in the end, you can't separate it. Check out what the process looks like for Borodinky, for example: https://youtu.be/ZQ_p7IihoZs?t=68
I think some authors call the same process "mashing" by the way - inspired by the brewing process.
Ah, I see, perfect then. Good crossover temp for both amylases. Thanks for the comments and the link. Can't wait for the challenge of the Borodinsky.
This is a great recipe for Borodinsky, I've followed it before, great result! The only unusual thing is that the coriander is not added to the scald which would be more typical. That's another advantage of scalding btw - more intense flavours from spices when added there.
Thank you, Ilya. I am going to deign to you on the subject and am really looking forward to the Borodinsky. The recipe - you mean as given in the youtube vid, right?
Totally off-topic, but do you happen to watch Chef's Table? If not, I'd really like to suggest the segment on Vladimir Mukhin. Utterly blown away. Intensity of feeling, highest standards and inimitable talent, even touching to see the back story with his dad, also a known chef in his day. Beautiful segment. Anyway, thought you might like it.
Yes, the recipe in the video. You can check out my blog, I made it a few months ago. Let me know if you have any questions when you decide to try Borodinsky if you have any questions! Yippee is also an expert with Rus Brot recipes even more than me. The recipes in that channel are mostly Russian and other surrounding countries, including the Baltic states. A few in more German style. But all primarily rye, including some incredibly complex, using thermophilic starters and unusual fermentation.
I don't want Chef's table, but I'll check it out, thanks! Mukhin is certainly the most famous Russian chef, and I would love to visit his restaurant one day for some particularly special occasion (let's just say it's not cheap and hugely popular). I also don't live in Russia anymore, but I do visit sometimes.
Great, thanks Ilya. Funny you mention Yippee - I don't know where I saw it on google last night but a reference to CLAS, which I recall is something Yippee is really into, so I'm looking forward to Yippee's blog. Caught a really nice post by idaveindy, citing several members including yourself with a lot of rye experience so yeah, really looking forward to reading your blogs. Thanks for the help, and the cites.
I'm making CLAS right now by the way, very curious to try it!
Scald is a partial mash, ideally run to may be 30-35% conversion.
Suave, interesting, thanks. I'd love to read some background on this? Where do the figures come from?
Wouldn't tell us much (nothing, as we all know, about what chains are being produced), but I'd love to maybe run pH and iodine testing with the liquid portion over time.
There's some specialty literature out there, but it's not in English. I myself never looked into too deep, but I imagine it the answer is both simple and complicated. Simple, because in practice all you need to know is the amount of fermentable sugars and viscosity - to get the hydration right. Complicated, because it is not a unified process - there are several ways of scalding that can produce rather different scalds.
Ah, I see. Thanks, suave. Seems sometimes there's no substitute for time and experience.
Peter Reinhart describes a mash process in Whole Grain Breads. It is similar to what you and Ilya are discussing. Grains or flour with a pinch of diastatic malt are held for 1–3 hours at 66 °C in an oven and cooled. In this case the flour or grain and the water from the mash are used in the bread. He also has a recipe for Spent-Grain Bread in the book. I have not tried making a mash using this process, but I am planning a bake right now that will use crystal wheat and barley malts. It should be interesting.
Awesome, thanks. I have the book but have yet to read through it so I'll check it out. Crystal wheat sounds perfect, clever - what deg. lov. are you going with? Even with British bitters I found I could always find at least a tiny room for 120L, as weird as it seems. Most true for Northern bitters, my passion. Really looking forward to trying these out on the ryes. Would love to know how your bake turns out. Would you post on it?
The crystal wheat I’m using is from Malteries Franco-Belges and is listed at 40° L and the crystal barley malt is 120° L; I don’t know for sure the vendor on the barley. As I’ve never used these malts before, I don’t know what to expect from the color. They seem a little dark for baking, especially the wheat. Is there a simple way to test the color of the malt?
I’m also using small amounts of torrefied wheat and flaked rye and oats. I used a blade spice mill to coarsely crack the wheats and powder the barley malt. It’s basically a little bit of everything from the homebrew store. I'll post the finished loaf after I finish the write-up.
Hey alcophile,
Sounds cool what you're doing. I'm sure there's an analytical way to test for colors, but I don't know any. I just build a mash grist and have an estimator as to color. I will say I'm pretty mad for 120 crystal. Even in bitters, in measured amounts. Just love that deep caramelized edge. My most-used, though, was likely 80 L. I tended to more caramelization - probably because of my Northern English palate in ales. If this helps, from the other thread, Stanley Ginsberg estimates the red rye malt at about 80L.
Really looking forward to what you come up with.