Not convinced that my starter needs to peak
So I will try to explain why I think you don't need the exact moment the starter needs to peak and you can use it at almost any time as long as it is really active.
Let's for example take a starter that is really active and you've been feeding it every day.
It's a 1:1:1 of 20g for each ingredient meaning 60g total, and I know by checking it everyday that it needs 6 hours to peak and stays there for 3h before starting to fall at 24-25°C.
Now, let's say I decided to create a new levain from my original active starter, a 1:5:5 to use in my recipe.
Meaning 20g of starter 100g of flour and 100g of water for a total of 220g.
So now I know from my 1:1:1 original starter that the 20g of starter are going to eat the first 40g in 6h (there own peak) and become 60g of levain, so there is 160g of food left for 60g of active levain, now my 60g will eat 120g in 6h and become 180g of levain, so there is 40g of food left after 12h and it's really close to peak now.
Now if I were to take the 220g of starter after 6 hours (way before it peaks), and put it in my recipe, I know that only 60g are going to be active and the rest would be just simple flour and water, that means if I were going for 20% of levain in my recipe, this would make the % way less because only 60g are active, meaning that instead of fermenting faster it will ferment slower, but that doesn't mean my starter is weak and it won't perform well, it just didn't fully transformed, we all know that there are recipe that goes from 5% starter to more than 20%.
To resume it, it's like instead of putting in my recipe my 1:5:5, I took my 1:1:1 at peak and used it, it just the % relative to the dough that changed, you will just need to adjust the recipe accordingly, so that's the hard part (taking into consideration the flour and water left in the starter that didn't transform, if you want the correct percentage you were after).
I could say that you can use your starter at any point during the rise (at least a minimum), but the only difference will be the fermentation time since the active part will be smaller, it doesn't make it stronger or weaker as long as your original starter is fully active, it is just slower.
The only benefice of a 1:5:5 starter is that it gives you some flexibility in your timing since it takes longer to transform.
Now when it start falling I think that's not a problem also, cause that means that the whole starter has transformed and it needs food, but the only down side is that the acid start to form and it damages the dough, as long as it is close to peak I think it's fine.
I've realized that everyone has their own custom-built "system" of how they do things.
IMO, the key to consistently good baking is to be consistent in all the things that could vary. Since "strength" of a starter/levain has an impact, I think it more important, that whatever you do, do it the same, bake to bake, so it is repeatable.
Then, with experience, when something does change, like ambient temp, you have a "feel" for what to do to compensate.
I've read (still experimenting) that if you want a more sour sourdough, you should wait until your starter has peaked and has started to fall. It gives a chance for the sour acid bacteria to produce more (the lacto whatevers?). If you want a sweeter bread (really I just mean non sour), you should use your starter before it peaks, because the Acid bacteria is slower than the yeast bacteria. :-)
Still experimenting with this though! Otherwise, I do tend to agree with you. If your little bacterias are happy alive and eating, they'll pretty much work whenever. You just have to take into consideration time, and you're good to go.
The last paragraph is it. Gotta give them the time to do their thing - not unlike starting a starter. Given the proper environment they will produce acids. And given the proper time you get anything from none to lots of sour. All very simple, all very basic. Enjoy!
I will try to test a sourdough with a starter that hasn't peaked to see if the acid is reduced (thats a taste that suits me more), i'll also try to refresh it twice in the same day before the final refresh, that should reduce the acidity pretty much, now it will take more time for the dough to rise if i use it before it peaks (based on my theory), does that produce acid then? I wonder.
Lets see.
You could also try a stir instead of a refresh (pretty much the same as doing some stretch and folds with the dough, you're moving the yeast around to find new food). If you know on average how long your starter takes to peak, you can stir a little past the "halfway" time, so your starter doesn't peak before you want to use it. Let us know how the experimentation goes!
hmm!! about stirring it could be a good idea, but i wonder, cause when i refresh my starter i usually add water first to dilute it completely this way i'm sure the flour will be mixed evenly.
The yeast is quite a good idea, will also add it to my experimental baking test, but can it last sufficiently for a fridge proof after many hours of fermentation?
Add a pinch of yeast. That'll shorten the process thereby reducing acid production. My taste also leans towards the milder, lactic acid type sour. That's what I do. Enjoy!
The yeast is quite a good idea, will also add it to my experimental baking test, but can it last sufficiently for a fridge proof after many hours of fermentation?
Well, I don't do the fridge thing much anymore. Only when I fall asleep and forget about a dough and it gets too late to finish it will I go for the fridge. I can say, it'll go overnight at something like 70F without issue, so I can't imagine cold doing any harm. Like with any leavening agent, depends on how much ya use, along with the other fundamentals (it's all just a matter of tweaking the fundamentals). Enjoy!
I believe if you prefer the milder lactic acid if you ferment your levain and the dough at warmer temperatures this will favour the production of lactic acid vs acetic acid so say around 82ºF vs 72ºF.
Benny
Good to know thank you.