Starter gets weaker over time
We read that as a starter that is well maintained and as it matures, that the raising power of that starter will increase. It should rise higher in the vessel as it reaches maturity.
That has not been my experience. After making many many sourdough starters, including Lievito Madre, the rise obtained within the first week is always higher than after having fed it for the second or third week. I can’t recall a single exception. See THIS POST for a documented account of this. The starter quadrupled after only a few days, but soon thereafter it started tripling and no more.
For the last month I have been working diligently to build a strong Lievito Madre. 2 of these starters are being maintained on a continuous basis as this is written. One was built from my typical sd starter and the other was built from scratch using Apple Water. It seems no matter what I do, the starters refuse to solidly triple in the required 4 hr ferment @ ~82F. Both starters are fed 3 or more times a day..,
Any knowledgeable insight into this matter is seriously appreciated.
This is what my Lievito Madre used to do, now it only doubles.
Danny
I’ve seen this happen with my starter as well and I never quite understood it. My starter is currently in one of those phases of not being very active. I have been told that feeding my starter a diet of only whole wheat in this case whole red fife might make it more prone to this, although I don’t understand why that would be the case. I’ve now trying to switch it over to feedings of white flour with a bit of rye as I’ve read that starters fed white flour might be more vigorous, again I’m not sure why this would be.
One thing I’ve noticed that I cannot explain, is that when I try to make a white flour levain at 100% hydration they will barely double in volume whereas if I make a whole grain levain, they will triple in volume. I have always thought that my 100% hydration white flour levains weren’t as viscous as the whole grain ones, so they were possibly not holding the gases in as well as the whole grain levains. But then when I make a loaf with the white flour levains they rise very sluggishly.
Just in case someone is reading this and thinking well the weather is now colder so of course things will ferment more slowly, I ferment in a proofing box so the conditions are pretty stable.
Benny
First - what you read is wrong, as you've apparently found. That being the case, the trouble experienced can be expected, and you should expect more - trouble that is.
When you learn what strength is, and cater to that, things will get better - maybe. Maybe cuz too many things wound be different enough to not expect the same exact results.
In the first week when a starter takes a little time to get going this gives the gluten a bit more time to form and it'll therefore rise more. When a starter matures it's quicker and therefore the gluten less developed.
Phaz and I discussed this when I posted how my starter seemed stronger after I stirred it back down and then it rose above and beyond the first bubbling up. This is because more food is available and I'm thinking the length of tjme plus stirring builds up more strength hence the greater rise.
My starter is many years old and if I make it low hydration and knead it for a few minutes it'll quadruple.
First - relating to the posts we had - I think you missed part of the point - the good part. The increased rise is due to more food available to the bugs, but more important (and the point) is the fact that you had more bugs. I didn't want to give this away but - you had a higher % of bugs - you had in essence made the starter stronger. See how that works.
And in relation to this thread and what I consider the root cause of the issue (I'm good at root cause analysis) - we've defined what strength is, at the very least in relation to a starter.
Low hydration and bigger rise - how much of that would/could be due just to the increased viscosity? Consistency does play a major role.
The only reason why I skipped over it on this post was because I was focusing on the longer lag time of a newer starter developing more gluten and the stirring down also developing more gluten plus more time! Not because the more available good wasn't important.
I've never had an issue with a starter getting weaker. There are probably so many variables of which I was trying to find one. Doesn't mean the starter is weaker per se. If it makes good bread it works and that's what is important at the end of day. Analysing everything risks analysing something which is nothing at all. Unless ones breads are failing.... It's working!
Abe, my present endeavor (Lievito Madre) is mixed at 45-50% hydration. They are vigorously kneaded by hand before it is set to ferment. I’ve seen the identical behavior with starters from 45-100% hydration. I do stir the wet starters on occasion and consistently notice the behaviors described. In short order (very quickly) they grow higher than before. The stir down can be performed several times or so before the food is exhausted.
To your experiencing a 'seemingly' weakening of your starters however they make great bread. So I concur they aren't weak. Now I'm not scientist but a dough, and bh extension starters, can be described as a balloon and the yeasts as the air that fills a balloon.
Having a runaway balloon does not mean a better starter. If you see what I mean. Perhaps a strong, steady and reliable starter is better than an explosive starter for a good bread.
Abe, the reason this situation is a concern is because I want to bake Panettone. It is commonly written that the Lievito Madre must triple in 3.5- 4 hours in order to be ready for a Pannetore bake.
You are right my sd starter is very adequate for general baking, but from everything I read Panettone is a special challenge.
I know that the starter can be souped up with whole grain rye, but it is not an option for Panettone as far as I know.
I always thought that the reason my starters quickly start to loose rise height is because the starter starts to increase acid production. That seemed to make sense. But the Lievito Madre is carefully maintained with reduced acids in mind. I also bath the starter from time to time in a sugar and water solution to reduce the acids.
I have spent the few weeks trying to figure this out with no success.
I appreciate the help,
Dan
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Often vitamine C is use a as additive to get a beter rise and lemon yuice contains a lot of vitamine c.
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Just a quick search https://thebreadguide.com/using-ascorbic-acid-when-baking/
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Interestingly, the link above, and my cursory search online suggest that the role of AA is not as an antioxidant, but rather the opposite, as a source of an oxidative derivative that promotes formation of disulfide bonds between gluten molecules, and so helps form the gluten network.
Often vitamine C is use a as additive to get a beter rise and lemon yuice contains a lot of vitamine c.
But the thing is - you do not need to feed a Lievito Madre for weeks, and do shamanic rituals with wrappings and dippings. It's entirely possible to go from a regular starter, even a 100% rye one, to a stiff non-sour starter powerfull enough to leaven a panettone in two days.
Suave your statement is interesting. How I hope it is so. But everything I read contradicts that. Have you successfully baked a classic Panettone by converting a typical sd starter to a Lievito Madre in two days?
I am interested to learn...
My starter is not very acetic to be begin with, so I'd actually done 100 to 60 to 50 to first dough in the past. But my general observation is that if I go 100 to 50 it takes as few as 3-4 cycles at 50% to get to the point where the starter has almost no perceptible sourness. I feed it Suas-style, every 4 hours, 2-3:2:1 ratio, and keep it at 28-30 °C.
Have you actually made a classic Panettone with the huge percentage of add ins with a starter like the one mentioned above?
Does your LM consecutively triple in 3.5-4 hr @ 28x30C?
I appreciate your willingness to help.
Danny
Yes, it worked just fine. I can not tell if tripled though, I never really measure these things.
I would be super interested in your procedure as well. It would be great to be able to convert a 100% hydration rye starter to a non-sour starter potent enough to make a pan net one in just two days. Please share.
Benny
This is how I resolved my weakening starter.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65789/solved-my-starter-issue
My levain builds are the best I've obtained in years.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Thanks for the reminder of your post from the fall Gavin. I think I will switch to rye, as you say it is easy enough to switch it over to whatever flour you need the levain to be.
Benny
Make sure you're using boiled water or bottled water or purified water. Many municipalities will add chlorine to their water. They add less or more as needed. So sometimes itll be fine and other times it'll just destroy my starter.
Oh yes I mostly use filtered water, but even with bottled water I used the past few days the starter was still sluggish. I’m hopeful that the switch to rye will do a world of good. I’ve now done the third feed of rye and it is looking more peppy. Making a levain will tell all though particularly a white flour levain. Thanks. Benny
I see you are in TO so if you want I could send send you a piece. If you are interested send a mailing address via private message.
Thanks for the kind offer Gerhard. My starter is already looking quite vigorous on its third feeding it about tripled in 4 hours on a 1:2:2 feed at 82ºF. I am leaving a couple of more hours to see when it finally peaks. I’ll certainly let you know if I cannot revive it, thanks again.
Benny
doing well. My sourdough died in 2018 when we went on a 5 week motorcycle trip to the east coast so I went without sourdough for quite awhile. I tried starting my own but it never developed into something I liked. Then this spring I was buying bread at Downie Street Bakehouse and the owner was serving me so I asked him for a little piece and he gave it to me. I have been happy with it right from the start.
Bakers are a generous bunch. I’m sure I’ve gotten my starter better already now. I’m going to give it another feed before bed and then I think it will go in the fridge. If you ever have an issue with your starter don’t hesitate to contact me Gerhard.
I am using bottled spring water, for the reasons you stated. I really wished the cause of the diminishing starter growth could be established. As stated, this is something that occurs for me on a consistent basis. And I’ve made a bunch of starters.
Many bakers are happy when their stater doubles. My new staters generally quadruple and then settle in to tripling. But the Lievito Madre is supposed to triple in 4 hr @ 82F and after feeding them for 3 weeks or so they are only doubling.
Maybe I should make a starter and use it for the first week or so, then start over and make another. LOL
My starter seems happy on a 100% diet of whole rye flour. On feeds 3 and 4 it quadrupled in size. I’ve made a small test levain feeing the start 1:1:1 with white flour to see how it performs as it never did well with white flour when it was being fed whole red fife. In 2 hours it has doubled at 82ºF. I’ll see what it peaks at but I’ve never seen this quick a rise with white flour before. The starter is in the fridge for now but I’ll do another feeding later today. The pH readings I’m getting are suggesting (with little data so far) that the rye starter has a lower pH than when it was fed whole red fife. I don’t think that the acid load of the starter is too high, although I may be proven wrong, but instead I think that rye doesn’t buffer the acid as well as whole red fife. I’ll continue to collect pH data but I find this interesting. I’ve always thought that when I have used more rye in my bread that it had more tang, this may be why.
Sounds like your starter is doing great! I've never had my starter quadruple, but I also don't have a proofer and don't feed it so regularly, except when it's unhappy (which hasn't happened for a while since I switched to just using the rye starter).
I think it's known rye promotes more acidity than wheat, not sure whether it's due to buffering or different nutritional content...
Yes of course it may somehow promote more LAB acid production. I’ve just measure the pH of rye with water vs red fife with water and was surprised to find that the baseline pH of the red fife is lower than the rye.
Later today I’ll do a pH measurement of each flour with some vinegar to see if one buffers the acid better than the other.
My test levain using white flour has triple in 3 hours. My old starter never made levains with white flour that tripled.
I’ll post a few more findings of pH in another thread for those interested here.
There is a connection between ash (mineral content) and buffering capacity. Rye is typically higher in ash and accordingly a greater degree of buffering capacity can be expected.
With increased buffering the acid load of the starter will likely increase (higher TTA). This higher acid load explains the lower initial pH after feeding.
That makes sense Michael I just posted this in another thread, they fit with what you just posted.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/474510#comment-474510
To test my hypothesis that red fife is a better buffer of acid than rye, which could explain the rye starter having lower pH than red fife starter I just did the following measurements.
Red fife 1:1 water pH 5.9
Rye 1:1 water pH 6.15
Our tap water pH 7.12
White vinegar pH 2.14
I diluted the vinegar 1:3 with tap water pH 2.39
Red fife pH 1:1 with diluted vinegar pH 3.63
Rye pH 1:1 with diluted vinegar pH 4.0
So I was quite wrong that red fife is a better buffer of acid than rye. The red fife starts at a lower pH than rye and the pH falls more than the rye when an equal acid load is added to it.
So this fits with what you just posted Michael that rye is in fact a better buffer of acid than red fife.
Help me out here Michael, so because rye can buffer more acid, it allows the LAB to continue to produce more acid when fed rye and ultimately the pH drops more because the TTA of the starter fed rye is higher, is that correct?
That's right Benny.
Nice to learn something new on a daily basis. Thanks Michael.
Benny
Danny, have a look at this site - I'm not saying all the tips are valid and applicable to your situation, but there might be something useful...
Lance
Thanks Lance, I have been reading and re-reading the linked site for a week now. She seems to have solved her problem and was very methodic in doing so.
Time and time again, I have observed both SD and LM starters start out ridiculously strong right after inception, only to digress shortly thereafter. I watch my starters closely. Maybe others are experiencing similar results but are just not aware.
Thanks for helping.
Hey, Dan,
Maybe that's your answer... just bake the Panettone with a young starter.
Also... You might surprise yourself by seeing a very high bread-rise in a cannon-shaped paper tube as is done with the Panettone. Have you actually tried to bake a few tests without fruit and add-ins?
Murph
This is what my LM used to do. Now it doubles...
That is so strange how it seems to have lost its vigor Dan. I don’t understand my starter doing the same as well. I know that I can get its vigor back and improve it by switching it to rye, but I’d still like to understand why it loses its vigor in the first place and I’m sure you would too. In speaking to other bakers I’ve heard this happening to quite a few of them as well with their starters.
Benny
When I listened to Jennifer Latham's audiobook she said they used exclusively stoneground T80 high extraction flour for their starters and levains - perhaps this is worth trying? They use a US sourced flour, so it doesn't have to be French.
Of course, this wouldn't be appropriate for LM.
Lance