September 9, 2020 - 12:22pm
My starter has all the sudden become...weird. Why could this be?
It was tripling or more in about 6 hours. All the sudden it just, stopped working. I use bottled water so it's not that. I did change my flour so I thought it was that but I bought my old flour and it still did it. It barely rises. Occasionally, it'll rise to about double, maybe a bit less, but takes like 20+ hours to do so. I'm not sure whats going on. Any thoughts? Thanks all!
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Be specific please. Include temps. And amounts, how often, any chilling?
I notice your starter has gradually been problematic over a longer amount of time. Starters can balk at a change in flour but let the starter work thru the feeding until it rises. Will know more with details. How does it taste?
I'm not sure the temperature of the starter but the air conditioning in the house is usually around 74-75. I put it on top of the refrigerator so it may be a bit hotter than that. The starter is ~6-8 months old. I originally started feeding it with Kyrol high gluten flour and it did fantastically. It would more than triple in 6 or so hours. I'd feed it whenever I wanted to use it, which was probably every 2-4 days, sometimes a bit more often. I would leave probably 20-30g in there (I could be off, I never weighed it) and would put between 100-110g water and 110-120g flour in there.
I only ever had problems with the water, and that was a long time ago and I realized its because there was chlorine in our water. So I started boiling water or using bottled water. One thing I realized when it started going bad is that it just...didn't smell right. Not bad but the small was less neutral and almost floral. It also looked sort of different, almost smoother.
It barely doubled the first few times I used the new flour and then it got progressively worse. So I tried an experiment and put the starter in two containers, fed one with that same (bread) flour that was causing issues, and then bought some unbleached flour. To my surprise, the unbleached flour one didn't do well but for some reason the bad flour one rose to about double, maybe a bit more, but very slowly. Probably over 20 hours. So I use that container now but feed it with the unbleached flour and it does okay. It about doubles but very slowly.
I truly have no idea what's going on. I for sure thought it was the flour and still think that had/has something to do with it but I'm not sure. Whatever it is, it's still not back to normal but its not quite as bad as before. Thanks a lot and sorry for all the text and sparse quantifiable details!
Well, I'd leave it at the starter got out of balance somewhere along the line and just needs a little tlc to get back in shape. Keep up the feeds with the flour it likes till healthy again and maybe work in a new flour little by little over a few days or week and see how it goes. Enjoy!
Yes, much more info needed. How old, flour used to start it, feed it, ratios schedule - more info is gooder info! Enjoy!
It's the nature of the multitude of bacterial and yeast colonies in the starter. The starter is handled more like mother nature does with wild yeast than what we do to tame the little wee beasties and grow them for our use. Mother nature can be pretty brutal providing rain, dry spells, food, heat, freezing in variant amounts. The little beasties adapt to their situation.
Not all of them react in the same way. Some are quicker to react to food, warmth and moisture faster than others to come out of dormant states and multiply. In a closed environment like a starter jar, those bacterial & yeast colonies that can't reproduce fast enough, those that go dormant and don't wake up fast enough, get tossed with the discard. In nature they just wait for the right opportunity. Fortunately for us we reintroduce the desired and undesired colonies into the culture everytine we feed it. If we have the correct ballance of beasties when fed, the undesireables get supressed and the wanted larger populations get fed. Then they make their environment positive for themselves and their increasing numbers and when food seems to decline, they prepare themselves for a long pause without food, slowing activity and possibly going dormant. Not all go dormant but if any do, the sizes of various colonies change. This can cause some major changes in starter behavior and aroma.
Think of a balanced starter as a small self contained community with just about everything in it. Then compare it to people. Everything works. Now take out the grocery and the filling station. Soon the people can't drive to get around and have to walk. Food becomes scarce and those who can't find, make or share food start to weaken. Remove a few more members of the communiy and soon it just isn't the same cheerful place to live. Now go back to the starter culture, when some members are missing or slowed down, it will behave differently.
I think what you have witnessed are various changes in your starter culture due to the multitude of changes put upon it.
Understanding that the culture will adapt if given time reflects upon the flour change. A higher protein flour that probably traps more gas longer than the AP flour more than likely has a few more or less bacteria than the other flour. The culture is slow but starts to adapt showing signs of gas production. We can assume this is coming from reproduction and fermentation. Switch flours again, back to high gluten flour, the culture has to adapt again. And that can take time to happen or not.
Due to the long waits between feeds, the chances that the starter has been invaded by foreign bad bacteria is low.
I see evidence of too much bacterial activity offset with larger feeds (good). Days of high temps to promote activity followed by lack of food starving the yeast into possible dormancy. Lots of changes but not consistant. To become consistant, It doesn't mean you have to weigh your flour and water, i don't. But it does mean watching and paying attention to the starter and feed it before it shows too many signs of going hungry. A little hunger is good but keeping the starter warm translates into having to regularly feeding more often.
Feeding within a few hours after peaking would be my recommendation for the next few days. With consistent temps and adjusted amounts of food this can be a time schedule after the starter responds consistently to being fed the same amount of food more often.
If fed less often, baking less; cooling, slowing down the starter's activity would be better than just letting food run out for several days at ideal growing temps. The warmer daily temps also encourage more bacterial growth which could be those floral scents you're picking up on. Make use of the refrigerator inside and less on top of it. Keep the starter cool between uses and warm it up to room temps before baking and after feeding.
Right now careful watching and taking your cues from the starter, feeding and getting into some kind of predictable schedule. As it gets stronger with yeast, the timing between feeding will shorten. After a few days of careful watching and feeding, chill the starter when it is about 2/3 or 3/4 risen to first peak. ( depends on fridge temps and use) That leaves a little food in there for the days between baking. You can also chill at peak and use the next day.
You are amazing, thank you so much! I'll definitely take your advice and see what happens. One weird thing that happened is this: I made some starter and it doubled, maybe a little bit more than doubled, but after I left it to sit out it looked like this. I've never had that happen before. Is this a sign of anything? I really appreciate your advice!
Edit: it seems to have all deflated and now looks normal. Although i've still not seen that before.
guess might be you had an invading bacteria but your starter defended itself and maintained order as fermentation progressed. Did it have any unusual aromas?
I'd be tempted to stir uo some of that feeding flour with water using the same hydration, just like you were starting a starter, and see if you get the same type of result. Give it 48 hrs. Compare.
I'm honestly not sure what's going on anymore. I got a couple of decent loaves when the starter managed to double, but shortly after that its not having much activity. It may rise about 25% in 24 hours. I'm pretty upset. Repeated feedings dont seem to be doing much good either. :(
If your maintenance encouraged a less acidic starter which resulted in foreign bacteria taking up home. A starter's acidity keeps bad bacteria at bay. If this fine balance is upset then you can introduce bacteria from the flour it's being fed. Raw cookie dough is not safe to eat and most people think eggs are the issue when infact the uncooked flour is also a problem. I think the best way to maintain a starter is to keep it acidic. Of course it has to be fed and kept healthy but over doing it with too many feeds too often can also be detrimental.
Now I've taken a look at bacteria which can smell floral. I advise you not to delve any further. Let us say it's not advisable to ingest said bacteria. Some of which can be present in flour. A healthy starter can deal with these invaders and kill them off. But a starter which has been tipped on the side of less acidic and it may struggle.
I think you have two options. The first being trying to save this one by feeding it a few times with pure pineapple juice with a ratio of 1:1:1 and not feeding again till it's peaked. Once it picks up and behaves more like a starter then switch to water. Should it continue to react well then try 1:2:2. Should all this go well then adopt a better maintenance for keeping the PH level more acidic.
Option number two, which can be done alongside option one, is to start another starter from scratch incase this one doesn't go well. Atleast you've had a head start.
Best of luck.
So! Good news and bad news. Good news is that I finally got it going again, and had great starter for like three or four consecutive days. Almost as good as it used to be. Then I got tired of making bread so I waited a couple days, something which I had done dozens of times, for even longer than a couple days, with my old starter, and now its behaving weird again. It's not rising as much, not even double. Fed it a couple times consecutively and barely any improvement.
So I dont know why this is happening. It's almost like unless I continually feed it, it will die. This never used to be a problem before. It has gotten a little colder here than it was a month or two ago, but it certainly was this cold before and no issues, so i dont think thats it. Plus the house AC is set to about 73-74 whether its slightly colder or warmer.
I honestly dont know why its become this way. It used to be so freaking reliable and I could wait several days, with barely any starter left in the jar, and it would rise 3x+. :( I also used to frequently feed the starter before I slept and it would be nearly perfect by the time I woke up. I cant do this at all anymore. It needs heat to rise at all (not even double). Thanks all for your continued help!
I had a similar issue and resolved it by adopting Jeffrey Hamelman's regimen. I wrote it up here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65789/solved-my-starter-issue
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Gavin.
When your starter was behaving what was your maintenance like? How much did you feed it and how often. When you wished to take a break how did you store your starter? For instance did you feed it? If so, how much? And at what stage did you refrigerate?
I used to have problems like this every few weeks. Sometimes it would behave beautifully for a few weeks, and sometimes would barely grow for a week. I think it was linked to temperature fluctuations - either too warm, or too cool. I just kept feeding it every day like normal, and eventually it started working again (after 3-4 days) - either it adapted to the temperature, or the weather changed. But then recently I moved to a new flat where I found a great warm spot with consistent 25-26°C, and all troubles seem in the past! It behaves much better, even if I don't feed it for a few days.
Another potential solution is converting it to rye. My rye starter works like a German car, nothing seems to trouble it. Rye is more nutritious, and also can sustain for much longer after a feeding.
I really dunno what it is. If I feed it every day, it seems fine. if I dont feed it for a few days, it requires a few feedings to get up to par. I didnt have this issue with the same flour, water, etc. The only thing I could think is temp. But if I'm controlling the water's temp and putting it in a warm spot, why does it take time to recover when it didnt used to? Its true that its chills more before I feed it, but wouldnt colder temperatures just keep it from completely using all the nutrients up? I almost feel like slightly colder temps would be better between long feedings. I'll definitely buy some rye flour. Thank you all!
When prepping your starter for the fridge.
I never put it in the fridge. I leave it out, fill it with what I need for my recipe, wait 4-8 hours, and take out what I put in. It used to work fine. Now it needs some refreshing before its completely ready. But oddly, it still seems to leaven bread just fine when its not at peak activity. It might just take a bit longer to bulk ferment.
You never put it in the fridge and yet...
"I really dunno what it is. If I feed it every day, it seems fine. if I dont feed it for a few days, it requires a few feedings to get up to par".
I suggest if you aren't going to feed it everyday then put it in the fridge. Give it a feed, allow it to double then refrigerate. Otherwise feed it everyday. I'm sure you'd be sluggish if you've fasted for a few days.
Ha, that makes sense, thank you. I guess I just was wondering why it didnt used to do that and now it does. When I take it out of the fridge do I just discard some and then feed like regular and its good to go? Or does it take multiple times?
Interestingly, I asked this question elsewhere and when I indicated that I thought a strong starter would spring back each time I fed it after sitting for a few days, I got this answer (which seemed counterintuitive to me):
"No. It just indicates that you are leaving it without nutrients and food. The process becomes anaerobic and you get much more bacterial fermentation and thus way more acids that attack gluten structure. It's great for pan frying since it reacts well with baking soda but it's not very good at all for loaves of bread. You really do want a starter that is fed frequently or at least fed before it deflates. You want your starter to be very stringy when you use it. If it smells sour or is runny it's too far gone for bread and needs a good heavy re-feeding to lower the acid content while prioritizing yeast production. Your starter will by no means die and you will still have lots of yeast, but going so long without feeding does terrible things to your yeast population and activity. Yeast have short life cycles unlike bacteria. You want to prioritize yeast fermentation because the bacterial fermentation will happen greatly whether you like it or not."
When you feed a starter the yeasts and bacteria will eat and multiply. At different stages the starter will go from immature, to young, then mature and after that it'll need feeding again as it begins to starve. Using an immature starter will produce sluggish results. When young it's active but the acids haven't started to build up so it's a sweeter starter. As it matures the acidity builds up to produce more tang. So catching a starter at different stages will produce varying degrees of strength and flavour. Ideally you want it fed, healthy and active before using. You also want to use it at a stage which has a flavour profile you're after. Leave it too long, it begins to starve, acidity builds up too much and the yeast population begins to die off. Unless fed or refrigerated it'll eventually go kaput.
So either feed it everyday or refrigerate. Best time to refrigerate is after a feed, when it's active but not peaked. I find doubling is best, before it begins to recede.
While there is no definitive maintenance schedule and feeding ratio you wish to make sure it's kept healthy with a good feed. So 1:2:2 is fine. But don't build too much at any one time. How about 20g starter + 40g water + 40g flour. Wait until it's doubled and refrigerate. Because you haven't been keeping your starter this way try doing a few of these feeds before refrigerating and once it's strong and doubled after the last feed then put it in the fridge.
There it can stay for a week or two no problem. If you wish you can take it out once a week and give it a feed. If you haven't used up your starter down to the 20g then discard however much till you have 20g left and re-feed 40g water + 40g flour wait till it's doubled then refrigerate again. You should find it will respond well now you've adopted a better method where it doesn't go hungry. If not then give it a little more TLC.
All you need to do when it comes to baking is dip into the starter, take some off and build an off-shoot starter called a levain. Once the levain is active, bubbly and peaked it's ready to use in the dough.
When your starter runs low take it out to top it up. Otherwise keep it in the fridge.
This is one way of keeping and using a starter. Hope it makes sense.
First, the question. You are right, a healthy mature starter should show heavy signs of activity after feeding - how long after depends on a few things.
Feeding - for whatever flour you're using, needs to be enough to prevent starving over a certain period of time, while at the same time not being to much to weaken it (bugs won't populate enough of the the mass in that same time period).
I would recommend this to determine a feed ratio for, let's do 1 day - 24 hrs.
Feed 122 (adjust water to keep a wet dough like consistency) and stir vigorously till you see the gluten firming up.
12 hrs later note the rise (measure it) and stir vigorously again.
12 hrs later note the rise.
The goal here is to adjust the food so after 24 hrs you still see a little rise.
No rise = not enough food to last 24 hrs.
There is a rise, it has enough food to last 24 hrs - but, and this is the important part, we don't know if it's too much food yet.
So we stir again without feeding and observe 12 hrs later. Once you still get a little rise a day later you're there.
Fridge - great thing for a mature starter, not so great for a young one. My rule - for every week in the fridge, give 1 day of recovery (warmth and a good feed) before use. Discard - I never discard but you can if you want as long as you have a good feed routine doesn't matter.
Last thing - I promise - why did the starter change? Well, why wouldn't it, they do here and there for whatever reason (which usually means oie, which means operator induced error). Just one of those things you get used to and compensate for. Enjoy!