August 19, 2020 - 7:27pm
what is going on with my starter
I haven't seen evidence of my starter rising more than a centimeter. I don't know if I should scrap or try something different.
I'm on Day 12. Around Day 6 I did try 110 degrees water and I think I killed it a bit, but I thought it would've recovered by now. To be completely transparent, I started with bleached AP, cause I didn't know any better. It was still bubbling well in the beginning, though hard to tell if it rose. I switched to King Arthur AP, was feeding AP, and now I'm trying bread flour. Someone HELP!
below is 5 hrs after feeding today
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Well, first, don't get discouraged, these things take time, especially using bleached white flour. I it does work, I've done many, but it will take longer then normal, usually a lot longer. Bubbling and rising at first (probably 2 or 3 days in) is normal with this type of flour. It is bacterial activity, but not the bacteria we want. Nothing to worry about - this is the start of a process than can take 2-3 weeks using this flour.
At this point 1 of 2 things may happen either it takes off in about a week, or nothing is gonna happen within the amount of time it'll take to start another using another method.
If you're game and want to try an out of the box suggestion, throw in some oatmeal and see what happens in a couple days.
The water probably didn't hurt much if any. If it was up around 120 or more different story.
Some notes and principles that may come in handy.
Feeding - feed when there's activity (ie bubbling and/or growth such as rising). Little activity requires little food and as there is more activity it'll need more food. Usually when a starter kicks in it does so with bang - lots of activity almost all of a sudden - and you may be close so beware.
Discarding - if you've been following the usual method of starting a starter, you've probably been tossing out like half the starter and adding more flour and water, and probably doing this daily. Don't at this point (I've never thrown anything out) and it may not be helping any, especially with bleached flour. Remember, activity requires food, lack of activity doesn't - especially at this stage. Even though it looks like nothing is happening, something is, feeding and discarding at this stage can dilute what's already happened and that'll slow a slow process even more.
There's appears to be some liquid at the top. Looks clear, probably just water. Which leads to next thing. Thicken up the starter a bit by adding just flour. It shouldn't be runny - if stirred with a butter knife it shouldn't pour or drip from the knife. You may notice more bubbles and maybe more rise.
If this doesn't work out, and frustration hasn't turned you completely off to the idea of sourdough search for "pineapple solution"and read posts by a Debra Wink for another method that I hear works wonders.
Oh, something else I just thought - if you can get some rye flour, our something like organic whole wheat or rye, toss some in and see what happens. Warning - it just may explode on ya! Enjoy and keep is posted!
thanks, phaz!
I'm willing to try a few things! By oatmeal, do you just mean oats? I can totally throw some in and see what happens.
For discard - do you mean don't separate out anything? Can I still feed it the same amount (113g flour / 113 g water <- thought it sounds like you wanted me to increase a little on the flour as well)? When do I know when to start discard again (probably when it actually starts rising)?
I'll look up the pineapple solution if this doesn't work! I can see if I can get some WW or rye from my mother in law - she just might have some! Thanks for the advice!
Oatmeal - I had cheap walmart great value oatmeal spilled on the counter and just tossed it in my 10 day old white flour starter, and it exploded next day. Now I can't say for sure it was the oatmeal as I kinda expect to see activity start about this time, but I've never seen it come on this much andfast.
Discard and feed -right now you're in the environmental creation phase as I like to call it. Whatever is in there is setting up shop for the next inhabitants. Discarding and feeding (that is feeding when there little to no activity) can actually dilute that environment causing things to show down. Why throw out that which we are trying to create (and already had created). Remember the rule (luckily there are few rules to remember), activity requires food, no activity doesn't. So when you see signs of life (mentioned above) you feed.
I like a thick starter. It can tell me things a thin soupy starter can't (ie. If my thick starter isn't thick or is thinning down, something is up (it's a quick visual as to health).I think I mentioned hope it should be above.
When to discard and feed, first ya gotta have a starter to think about that. When it takes off (lots of bubbles and a consistent rise (height in the jar) you can think about that. A good place to start is 122 sfw for once a day feeding but that should be adjusted (the water amount) to keep it on the thick side. Keep us posted on progress and enjoy!
What does "sfw" mean?
ALSO, I threw some oats in earlier, and this thing is rising. It's only like 1/4 inch so far, but it's past my sticky note!
SFW refers to the Starter, Flour and Water components of a Starter feeding. Just as an explanatory example, I feed my starter regularly with 1,3,3 “SFW” refreshes. That is, 1 part Starter, 3 parts flour, 3 parts water. Again in my case, that is 5 grams of mature Starter needing feeding, and 15 grams each of fresh flour and of water. The ratios vary depending on who you read/listen to, but the basic description still applies.
Goid luck with your Starter. I’d guess you are headed in the right direction now.
OldWoodenSpoon
thanks!
Sfw just short for starter/flour/water.
Hard to tell in the pic, but do I see some bubbling at the top?
I'm going to have to look into oatmeal a little more. My theory may be out there (most of mine are) but they are based on science and fact, and they do say I work in mysterious ways).
And I forgot to mention - it's a good it's to stir things up a time or 2 every day. When there's little activity stirring can almost be used as a feeding - kinda. Our little friends don't get around very well, they are not very mobile. Once the food right around them is gone, they can't just mosey on over to another spot and start eating, so we stir it here and there to help them along. A note on this though - since measuring the rise is something we will rely on later, we have to note how much of a rise there was before stirring.
Example - if we see a doubling in height in say 12 hrs, and we stir after there was a 50% rise in say 6 hrs. The math tells us we should expect to see another 50% rise in the next 6 hrs. Together we still get a doubling, we just deflated it when we stirred. Stirring can also tell us other things, but that's later, once this gets going you'll have a few more important questions and focus should be on those.
Enjoy - you'll be baking bread soon!
Ps - Did you thicken it up a bit?
This morning when I checked, it's still above my sticky note, and there's no evidence that it has slid back down - so I haven't fed it again (should I feed it?). I can take a pic from the top, it's definitely bubbling!! I haven't been this excited since I cooked my first bread.
I have to say... if oatmeal made yours work, and I threw oatmeal in mine (and stirred it), maybe it is the magic key? ;-)
That is curious though, I'll have to stir more often. I didn't want to "disturb" the little fellas while they were doing their thing. I'll need more sticky notes to measure the height.
I can't wait! I'm so close!
I haven't thickened it up yet, just threw some oats in there yesterday afternoon, but when I stirred it it was still a little thin. When I feed it today, I'll add a little more flour than water to thicken it up a bit :-) it's always thick right after a feed it, maybe when it's thin is when I should feed it again?
Looking good - it's rising, slowly, but still rising and always like to see bubbles. The fungus is among us! We appear to have a growing starter, now it's just a matter of increasing the numbers - getting more and more bacteria and yeast in relation to the whole, and we do that by careful feeding and providing the proper environment so they grow like crazy.
Environment - just keep it warm with the emphasis on not letting it get below about 65F, 80F would be ideal and certainly nothing above 100. That's the easy part, now comes the feeding
Feeding - we have some bugs, but not a lot. Right now (from what I see in the pics), there's a lot of food, probably enough to last a week or more with this level of activity, but we have to remember, it's a young starter, not a lot of mouths to feed and as it get stronger (higher percentage of bugs) that food will go faster (I consider this a fundamental that should be understood well so you may hear it often). Back to feed, since we have an excess of food there's really no reason to add more - right now - that will gradually change over the next week or so and needs to be monitored. What we do now is the next subject
Stirring - let's recap a couple things, we know bugs need food, we know they don't get around much on their own. Question - how go they get food when what they can reach so to speak is gone? What they actually do is simple but still to long to get into right now, but we can help them along by mixing them up - we're moving them around closer to the food **already there**. Stars are meant to emphasize - sorry! Another recap - we have some bugs, we want more bugs in that same amount of starter (this is considered strength) and we already have plenty of food - what's next? Stir it up, let them eat and multiply, they're good at that, leave them to it. I'd estimate you can just stir for 3-5 days and will get rising and have bubbles - don't do this, it's just meant to be an idea of about how much food there is in there.
What now - add some flour to thicken it up, we can call this a feed, stir, keep warm, observe. What to look for - continued rising and consistent bubbling, more even distribution of bubbles all through it, distinctly sourish smell, you can even taste it for sour (no it won't kill ya, just don't drink a gallon of it!).
Last thing or 2 as it'll be important since were stirring instead of feeding - record the rise height and if possible, times ie. How long does it take to rise x amount, and if it stops rising after a stir feed it something like 133 - lather rinse repeat.
Thickness - yeah thicken it up it looks thinner then what I like. I use a butter knife to stir, jar is about the same size, and when I stir I can feel a good bit of resistance as I'm stirring. Pro Tip - develope you're sense of feel it'll serve you well when it comes time to actually work with the dough - which will be soon.
Hmmm, time for an easy little test, open book even - I believe I went into thickness back a bit. Question - what does it mean if I'm stirring and notice it's thin or getting thinner?
Let us know how it's going and Enjoy!
Sorry for the late reply! Haven't had time to hop on and reply, but I did read and keep this is mind!
For the open book: if your starter is getting thinner, it means something is up with it... though I'm not 100% sure what that could mean. That it needs more food?
Updates on what has happened so far:
Sometime Friday Brad (my starter) reached its peak, about 2x its volume, and slid back down. I fed him (140g sfw, less water) around 11 PM.
This morning, Saturday morning, around 8 am, Brad started overflowing the jar, pushing the lid off. I put him in a bowl, to not make a mess, and he kept rising.
By the time I got back home, around 12pm, he had reached his peak and started sliding back down, it was hard to tell volume, because it overflowed.
I fed Brad (113g sfw) at 12:18 pm. I did discard this time, because he seems pretty active, and I put him in a bigger container. I did notice the thicker consistency here, which was good. It feels almost like a really wet yeasty dough, and the smell is quite pleasant.
Around 7 pm, Brad had already peaked and had started sliding back down. Volume was about 2.5x.
This growth happened in 6 ish hours, so I don't want Brad to peak in the middle of the night, I fed him again, but twice the amount, 120g starter, 240g fw (not sure if this was right). My hopes are he doesn't peak until 9 am, at which point he's ready to use in a SD recipe?
Do you have an "easy" first SD recipe? I was going to try https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-sourdough-bread-224367, I think I can use 150g of peaked starter in place of the leaven?
I appreciate all your help! The past two days have been magical and scientific!
You've got a starter. Everything looks real good, consistency seems about right, good growth, and probably have bubbles all through it. This is the big burst of activity, the explosion I mentioned once before.
Before using it's a good idea to (warning - you're not gonna like it) - let it mature four a while, like couple weeks just to make sure it's rising predictabley. But, you can still use it sooner, if you want, and I know you do. Remember things may change a little once it does mature.
Feeding - this gets more important now that we have something that can eat food. Let's start with a122 feed (little less water to keep thick) and see what happens a day (24 hrs) later. It should rise and fall like you've been seeing, hopefully more then you've been seeing. Do this for a couple days. Report back with a status. If we can get the starter stronger over the next few days you can test it out.
Recipe - a standard is the 123 sourdough. 1 part starter 2 parts flour and 1 part water. Add some salt (always add some salt, like a couple teaspoons). Search the site for lots more info on that.
Woo!
As much as I don't want to agree, I agree. My starter finished rising before 8 AM this morning, since it was sliding back down by the time I fed it at 9 ish. Because of the shape of the bigger container, it only looked like it grew about 2x. It's been about 4 hours now, and it's only about doubled.
Is it ok to only feed 1x a day? Won't that be starving the starter if he rises/falls within 7-8 hours?
Thanks! I did some searching last night, going to look some more today.
Container shape makes a difference. Feeding - you can feed it as often or as little as you want. The main thing is to have enough food to last till you can add more. If it's rising and falling in 8 hrs, whatever we gave for food is lasting about 8 hrs (more really but we want to err a little on the to much food - just a little).A place to start for once a day feeding is 122. Matter of fact I think you should go to 122 now, that starter won't mind it, and I can go into how to tell if a feed is enough to last later - been hitting golf balls since 10 this morning and I'm about done.
Go to 122 feeds once a day and give a stir at about the 12 hr mark. Like if you feed in the morning give a stir at night before bedtime.
Oh, don't worry so much about how high it rises. Different flours in a starter will give much different rises, and white flour won't rise as well as others anyway. The main thing now is consistent rise to whatever height it happens to be in a consistent amount of time.
If it gets consistent with the 122 feeds you can try some in a small loaf to test it out. It should at least rise the dough, and young starters tend to be a tad more sour, you may have an interesting experiment there. Enjoy!
Thanks, phaz!
I've attached a pic of what it looked like this morning, after feeding 122sfw last night at 11 :-) I changed containers again to make it easier to note rise, my larger Mason jars get here Wednesday
The 8 AM mark happened AFTER the rise, the rise happened sometime during the night. :-) there hasn't been any activity since I stirred around 11 though
Ooh, look at all the bubbles, nice. That container, the one using now, will be deceiving. Slanted sides make it hard to read the rise so you probably got a lot more than what was showing if ya go by height. The main thing with a jar/container is straight sides, a wide mouth is also handy. I use a pickle jar for my working starter (about 3 inches across and 6 high) and a small jar that held capers when creating a starter (an inch across and about 5 inches high, it's a lot smaller cuz I start with only a little flour and water, very little).
Had to tell but it looks like it may still be a little thin, kinda pourable so to speak. If it is, cut back on the water a little more, looking for a soft wet dough like consistency.
Everything is looking real good so far. If it rises and falls consistently with the 12? (? = whatever water you use) feed for a couple 3 days - try a loaf.
A note - we're basically in the maintenance phase of the process. Now I'm not saying things are going to get easier, but a big hurdle has been cleared (most just give up after a failure or 2. The starter is made, but ya still gotta make the bread. I've a funny feeling this may happen sooner rather than later so lets take a quick look at that. And another note, this one on notes - lots of folks take them and they are handy to track things. Get a little pad and take notes as you go along. When you want to get somewhere it can be handy to know where ya been along the way.
The bread - we're there - finally! Just some suggestions to help the bread making and the education of the bread maker.
As you're weighing stuff (a great way to develop feel) don't use too much water. Most recipes you see are like 70% hydration (the amount of water relative to the total amount of flour - 100g flour and 70g water is 70% hydration). Stay around 60% for now. It's a whole lot easier to handle and you really don't need a lot of water to make good bread. Once you get used to that add more water if you want to. Timing - times given in a recipe are slightly better than useless. Different flour, different starter, different environment, you're going to have different timings. They are at best a general guideline as to how long to ferment, proof, whatever.
Watch the dough. Don't go by it should do this in this amount of time, it should be it should do this in however long it takes to do it. The usual guide to look for is something like, ferment till it rises a certain amount (percentage) or proof till it rises a certain amount - however long it takes or doesn't take if the starter is very strong.
Get a bread pan and make bread with that for a bit till you get a feel for things - and if things go wrong when making another shape of bread later on, you can just toss the dough in the bread pan and still have a loaf to eat. They come in handy.
Here's something to play with, if ya have a bread pan.
Flour - 600g
Water - 360g (60% hydration)
Starter - 100g
Salt - 12g (2% salt is a good place to start)
Yeast - yes commercial yeast very little just a pinch - a few grams)
Mix it all up in the morning, cover and leave it out at room temp till it doubles in size (I'll guess about 6-8 hrs). Give a quick knead and shape it into a log a little smaller then the size of the pan. Pour a little oil on the counter (maybe a teaspoon) and roll the log in it to give a slight coat of oil (keeps from drying out allowing it to expand, and it will). Let it about double again, then wet the top with water and with a sharp knife slice the top lengthwise about a quarter inch in (this also allows the bread to expand when baking (called oven spring). Bake at about 375F for 30 - 45 minutes or the top is well browned. Inside temp should be about 205F. You should and up with a slightly tangy airy loaf of bread. That'll keep ya busy for a bit while the stater matures more. I'm in the midst of one right now.
Congratulations on bringing another starter into the world! Good luck and as always Enjoy!
Oh! I hadn't even noticed it had slanted sides. It's alive! (robot chicken reference? no?) :-) I was using a quart sized mason jar, but I'm not sure if it's the fact that 122sfw is too much, but that's what it overflowed in. Since then I've been using larger containers because I'd prefer to not clean that mess up twice :-) Once it's nice and strong, I'd love to have a smaller amount, and just grow it when I intend to bake stuff.
I've been keeping water on the less side - it's definitely not as thin before, it takes some work to "pour" out, so to speak. I will keep this in mind as I continue feeding!
The notes thing is a FANTASTIC idea - I hadn't thought of it. I will start doing that now, actually. This is definitely a learning journey, so there will be plenty!
Dryer dough sounds much easier to handle than wet dough, and the time thing is good to note - this will be the first thing to go in my notes! In a few days I will try :-) I also want to try some hamburger rolls, because the recipe I found also uses a pinch of yeast in case your starter isn't as strong. I will update on both of these attempts!
I appreciate all of your help :-)
That sounds like a good consistency. A little thicker may show a better distribution of bubbles, always good.
Jars, well, my pickle jar is a little large (even I think so) especially since I usually don't have a lot in there. The trick to no waste (overflow, mess, money on flour etc) is to start small. Remember this thing is alive and if it has food it'll grow. You start small and as you feed you build up the amount you have till enough to use in a loaf. I start a starter with about a tablespoon of flour and water to make a really thick pancake batter and wait till it starts, by the time it takes off (a week or so later) I only have like a half cup of starter (I don't discard anything). I also use almost all my starter for a loaf leaving what's left on the sides of the jar (jar scrapings I call it) to build up for the next one. Working like this also helps ensure the starter stays nice and healthy.
Drier will definitely help at this point. Many follow a recipe (I'm not a fan) and get thoroughly frustrated cuz it's so sticky and think that's the way it will be and forget all about it. Handling high hydration doughs (say 70% and above) takes practice and usually a bit of it. Worry about it later, you don't even need it. When things are done properly 50% will look just as good as 80% - and whatever the water amount, it'll taste the same.
Don't be afraid of a little yeast. It's just another tool hanging from the belt. Like now - my back is out, so no golf balls today, and I ran out of bread last night and forgot to get a loaf going. Mixed everything up this morning with a touch of yeast, 5 hrs later it was doubled (and then some, meh, no problem). I'm about to shape it and then in a bread pan to proof, it'll be done about dinner time. Yeah I could buy a loaf, but I knew I could make one in the time I had, with a little help (and I've only bought 2 loaves of bread in the last 15 years, don't want to break the streak)!
The help - no problem at all - literally. Like golf, I've been there with questions and got answers from someone. Once I weed through all the shall we say available information, I take the fundamentals and try to spread the word. Everything is easy when ya got the fundamentals down.
Oh - robot chicken! I miss that. But I was always a fan of stop animation, creative stop animation even better. There's some work put into that!
Enjoy - and post some pics of the bread!
Do you ever put your starter in the fridge? Or you just make about one bread a week? So once you're done using most of it, you just build it up for the next one?
I tried the recipe... and I definitely bastardized it. :-)
I'm pretty sure I added too much water. It started off really dry.. so dry, I only added a tablespoon and it went from so dry to so wet.
I also started it last night, because I have so much discard and I already had crackers in the oven. So it sat on the counter for about an hour before I shoved it in the fridge. I took it out this morning and did some stretch and folds in an oiled bowl and let it sit. I did a few more stretch and folds periodically.
About 30 min ago when I touched it, it has these giant gas bubbles in it. So I google that, and google tells me I've overproofed my bread. So I try to fold it, and it is a giant mess, not a lot of structure, because I think I overproofed it. So, I tried to score it. The dough split open - never seen that before, but maybe all the other times have been wrong and this is right, who knows.
Now it's in a cold dutch oven heating up in the oven so I can cook it and see if it tastes even mediocre. :-) Pics attached for your amusement.
around 12:
before scoring:
after scoring:
Fridge - my starter lives there. I take it out night before I need it to warm up and feed it, by morning it's fallen and ready to use. I use all of it for my bread, throw a bunch of flour and some water in (gotta get the right consistency), let it rise and fall again, by morning, stir it, let it rise again, more flour and water, back in the fridge. A general rule I follow, which was totally made up by me, is 1 day of warmth and food for every week in the fridge. If it's in there about a week, give it a feed and let it rise/fall, 2 weeks 2 days of warmth and feeding (and watching to make sure it rises and falls like it usually does, and if not, add another day of tlc).
Recipe - we all make adjustments here and there, and as you get more experience you'll tweak it even more - part of the fun.
Water - I thought you weight ingredients, and if so probably should have stuck with the 60% water. The dough will be a lot different from when first mixed (dry) to as little a 10 minutes later (moist/sticky), in an hour it's a totally different beast as the flour has had time to absorb the water and gluten has been forming (which also uses up water so to speak - you should have an understanding of gluten - how it forms in particular, it's critical for bread). Weighing is the best way to pick up feel, like the difference between 60 hydration and 70 hydration or whatever (then you can throw away the scale).
So much discard - easy enough to remedy, unless you like it or have a use for it. I don't so I just don't make any, I used to tell my nephew - if you don't make a mess, you don't have to clean one up - same thing. Keep it small, only make what you need, I like to call it being efficient.
Stretch/fold aka sf - well, it won't hurt anything. Never did it so really can't say. Hmmm im going to leave this one at learn a little about gluten formation. I will add, I'm not one to sit by a bowl of wet flour so I can pull it a couple times ever 30 minutes for however many hrs - mm... nope.
Giant gas bubbles - there should be some, that's what most want - it does not mean over proofed. It does mean your starter is working and gluten is forming. Think this way - the dough is just a big starter. When the starter rises and falls it's low on food or over (over the point where there's enough food to survive). When the dough is over it'll basically react the same way - rise and fall. From the pics, is say proofing was damn near perfect - really- great distribution of holes of varying size all through the bread, none to big (in bit a fan of big holes).
Scoring - well, when you crack an egg, the inside spills out - same here. The egg shell being a network of gluten holding in all that tension from the build up of gases inside it. You stuck a needle in that balloon, and it popped! Nothing unusual.
Dough looks good in first pic, hard to really tell but it may have been a smidge over, but the pics of the bread make it look perfect, like you nailed it - there's a lot of leeway in this game - a whole lot more than most think. Enjoy
At what point is my starter strong enough to stop feeding it every day? (Oh my goodness, you were right about how the questions would increase once the thing was alive!)
I did weigh the water using a scale - I think I jumped the gun on adding more water instead of letting the dough rest for a few minutes to see if it actually needed it. Something to go into my bread notes :-) I'm too much of a perfectionist to throw away the scale though, it makes me nervous if I'm not using it!
Oh ok, that makes me feel better then! I had seen that and was like oh, I should really get this in the oven!
Thanks, phaz :-)
If ya have a scale do use it, the learning curve flattens out a lot if used - you'll develope feel a lot faster.
When to stop feeding every day, since you've just gotten into the maintenance phase, you can feed whenever you want - add long as it's enough to last till you can add more food.
Example - let's say a feed is 122, and you add this every 24 hrs and in that time it rises and falls. That means there was enough food last about 24 hrs. So now we decide to feed 144 - logic would dictate the 144 feed would last 48 hrs - twice the food for the same amount of starter should last about twice as long - legal disclaimer - none of this is exact, it's meant as an example, but can be considered a general rule.
oh! so when you say 122, you really mean 1 part starter, 2 parts flour, 2 parts water? I had been reading that as 122g of each (-: hah
also - it's extremely impressive you've only bought 2 loaves in the last 15 years - I'd love to be able to get to that point! I'd also love to not be drowning in starter discard :-)
Discard is above
I really like bread - nearest decent bakery, not good, decent is about 30 miles away, I like my bread better and I make it for like 1/10 the $$$, with the most minimal of effort and annoyance. When the ac broke and it was 95, I wasn't turning in the oven so I bough some store brand white bread - birds got most of it!
Ok, well the crust was nice, but it got stuck to my Dutch oven. First time for everything. I ripped a whole in the bottom of the bread after trying to get it unstuck for an hr.
My husband says the bread is a little dense / doughy. It measured 210F when I took it out. My in laws liked it though. It's not as sour as I'd hoped for, but I think it was a good first bead.
Sticking - some use parchment paper as it won't burn and doesn't stick and can use like a sling sort of to lift and lower the dough. Some also say a liberal sprinkling of cornmeal helps. If you cut into the bread too soon (I'm pretty sure ya did), it'll be doughy ie, wet moist dense. Wait about an hour before slicing, it needs that long for moisture to distribute through the loaf. By the time you read this you've probably sliced into it a bit more later on and may have noticed a change. They usually get more sour day by day and with tweaks to the recipe you can go from puckering sour to barely noticeable sour. I like mild so if using the 1 I gave it'll be like take a bite and about the second or 3rd chew you notice a little tang back of the palette and if a little yeast was used there's still a certain sweetness to play with the tang. Something like that!
Looks like ya got decent oven spring, crust looks great - that's my perfect color and asks a sign of not over. When a dough is really over, all the starches and sugars are gone and they are needed to caramelize and that turns the crust brown - and brown food is good food!
Oh cold Dutch oven? Don't most preheat it first?
OK, so truth be told, every other time (only twice if we're being honest) I've made bread in my dutch oven, I preheated it first. But then after reading the little pamphlet and other places online, I guess enameled dutch ovens (or some of them?) aren't supposed to be preheated empty? So then I looked up what to do with a cold one, and well I should've used parchment paper, but none of the others stuck! I'll have to look more into the empty preheating thing.
The bread did taste different for me today, my husband will be the really voice of reason :-) I love all bread so I can't really tell. To me it tasted good!
I’ve been using my enameled Le crueset dutch oven and preheating it to 500ºF empty for 1 hour once a week more or less for well over a year and I cannot see any evidence of issues with the enamel. I know an N of 1 isn’t much evidence for you, but I know others who do the same for longer without problems.
Benny
thanks, Benito. Do you know if le crueset says that it's ok? I have a lodge dutch oven (not sure if they're made differently?) On the king arthur website, I've even seen some authors say they wouldn't recommend putting their dutch oven in empty (though, do they mean a cold empty dutch oven into an already heated oven, or a cold empty dutch oven into a cold oven as its preheating?) hmm
You like it (and the better half of coarse) - that's what counts. Can't speak on the Dutch oven, I don't have one. But your well on the way to bread heaven keep on keeping on. Need help - you know where to go. Enjoy!
OK, actually followed the recipe this time (sans yeast) and let the flour soak up all the water, I didn't need to add extra. Threw it in the fridge overnight and popped it in the oven this morning. The dough actually let me shape it this time!
The inside feels "sticky", like not dry, but temperature was 209 when I pulled it out so I don't think it's under cooked. I waited 2 hrs before slicing. I'll try some later to see if texture is different.
Another success, like I say when I birdie a hole, "you'd almost think we knew what we were doing", seriously though, threat sites look good.
You mentioned gummy, even after a couple hrs. And actually following a recipe this time. I think you're gonna have to tweak your timings a tad. While this looks great, there is something about it, it looks kinda dense and see why you say gummy. Lol where there's a concentration of small holes, there should be more and a finer structure. It's close though. Might be a good ideas to do a couple more loaves and like bracket the times (go a little more ferment/proof on one and a little less on the other and see which is better (start with a little longer, I think that may be it)
A note on recipes - great for ingredients and ideas, not so great for timings. Almost everything you use will be different, and the difference usually shows in different times for ferment/proof. Once you get used to how your starter works it'll be easy to anticipate and compensate.
Starter question - I take it it's feed once a day 122 with a stir half way - at the 24 hrs mark (thereabouts anyway) is there a rise? If so.how much?
well thanks :-)
That sounds like a good test - Brad is in the fridge now, so in a few days I'll make some more loaves and see what happens!
I was feeding actually 111 twice a day. It would about tripled in a 6-7 hour period. I did try 122 one day, and it about tripled in 11-12 hours. The house is kind of warm, usually around 78, which might be why it's rising so quickly. Stirring experiments did happen, but I didn't see any extra rise after stirring. The starter was kind of "done" eating. I did let him go 24 hours one day after stirring at the 12 hour mark, and he was super thin by the time I went to feed again (so hungry!)
I'm glad I though to ask about the starter, almost forgot.
Ok, no rise after stirring, thinning out, it needs more food. And I think we got it just in time. 122 once a day isn't enough so go to 144 once a day and still stir at the half way point. Observe. Ideally we like to see at least a little rise by next feeding time. What we are doing here is tweaking the food amount to make sure there enough to last from one feed till the next.
Right now there is a little deficit and if this feed amount and schedule was followed, within a week or so the starter will be out of balance causing a myriad of problems (usually it gets too acidic and the effect on the dough is bad, real bad). On the other side of things, if it still rose and kept rising without feeding but still stirring, there's too much food, and over time it will be diluted (the bugs won't have enough time to increase their numbers before more stuff is thrown at them), and the starter will start to lose its strength. Not catastrophic, but will cause grief.
I think you may be seeing the reasons (good reasons) for stirring and keeping starter on the thick side. All we needed to hear was not rising and getting thin - ding ding ding - that's the alarm bell going off!
Temps - they do make a difference, sometimes a big difference. If you went from 80 to 75, just 5F, 122 may have been enough (barely), go to 85 and 144 may not be enough. But ya know what - don't matter to you cuz you know how to tell if a feed is enough or not and can compensate (if I did my job anyway). Oh, are you discarding (tossing half or so and replacing)?
But do increase food and watch the signs. Note on last loaf, I had a feeling it was a tad over, considering this info (elevated temps making things go faster and a strong starter adding to the speed) it may have gone over a touch. Watch the rise when fermenting/proofing. Go a little less on the next one. Enjoy!
Sorry for the late reply - had to wait a few days before we needed more bread!
If I pull the starter out of the fridge the night before and feed enough for the morning, then I can feed again first thing (only enough for like 6-8 hrs for the second feed), and make bread when it's finished. I'm not sure if that's sustainable for the little guy's health, but it worked this time. I started with a 75g starter, I measured out 60g and fed, and in the morning, I measured out 90g (I think, maybe a little more) and fed. I ended up with a little discard, but enough to make crackers that I like. So far this seems like a good amount but I'll probably play around with it. :-)
I took good notes this time, too. The last time I think the bread proofed for about 10 ish hrs, so this time I did 8.5 hrs. Overall, I got more holes and the texture was slightly lighter (taste still awesome!), but we're still not there yet. Before I did the final shaping, the dough, when poked, did not come back at all, it just sat there with the indentation in it. Next time, I think I will try 7.5 hrs and see, or I might play with the temperature of water I give it to see if I can "cool" up the dough a little to make it last longer.
Hmmm, we have a few topics and I'll try too hit the high points best I can, it's earlyand no coffee yet.
My concern in the last post was not enough food. The last week or so the starter has been maturing, it's settling down, becoming more predictable. In other words, it's changing and the amount of food needed is also changing as will be the times it takes to go through the food. I start with this cuz it's important now that you'll be using the fridge for short term storage (i was expecting this). We want the starter to have a high concentrating of healthy bugs before it gets cold and for that we need to know food usage, both amount and times.
Right now increase the feed as mentioned and keep doing the stir half way. When you still see a bit if a rise 24 hrs latter (with the half way stir) we found a good feed. Once you have the good feed and that's consistent for a week or so, you can start the cold storage (cold does take a toll on the starter so we want it in real good shape beforehand). More on this further down.
Poke test - that sounds a bit over (still kinda looks like it in the loaf - which looks really good none the less). Poke test can be tricky. Other things can throw it off but if you're used to it, keep going (I use the jiggle test since I gotta handle the dough anyway).
Timing - the 2 main ways are to slow/speed things up.
Temps - cooler = slower, hotter faster. Cooling/warming the dough has same effect.
Amount of leavening (starter/yeast) - more = faster, less slower.
Which is best for you will take a little experimenting. I've posted a couple times recently - if going over, reduce starter to keep same timings or reduce time to keep same starter amount. Same difference.
Fridge - the idea here is to have a high concentrating of bugs before it gets cold and their activity comes close to stopping (that's what cold does). We know when a starter is fully risen it has a large bug population, and that's when we put it in the cold - at peak or just after. The healthier and stronger the starter, the better it'll react when it comes time to get ready to use it. This is the reason I was concerned about food.
What to do now - increase food till you get that little rise after 24 hrs with the half way stir. Keep that up till it's consistent for a few days (the little rise in 24 hrs).
One that happens it gets easy again. What we do is after it falls (morning for you) give a feed, stir well and just toss in the fridge. That's the basics of cold storage.
This is what I do - take it out of the fridge night before, feed and stir, by morning it's risen and started to fall, I use 90% in my dough (this is the only time I "discard", and I "discard" right into my dough), throw in a bunch of flour and water, stir and let grow again (usually later that night), feed again, stir, then back in the fridge. I've done it this way for years and no problems. I should note this is for storage of about a week. Longer and I do more feeds - my general rule is a day of recovery for every week in the cold.
I hope I hit everything and on another note, there was a post and pic of a loaf recently, a first attempt that came out really good. Some didn't believe it was from a first timer. You should find that thread (may have been the community bake thing), post a pic of your first loaf with the caption - "first loaf, easy when done right"!! Enjoy!
Is there a benefit feeding every 12 hours vs every 24 hours, so long as 1) you're giving it enough food to last that amount of time, and 2) it's eaten all of its food before you feed it more? I ask because it requires more planning for baking bread to feed for 24 hrs vs 12 hrs (or I think it would). Does feeding less often affect the bacteria (lactic vs acetic) differently (and thereby affecting taste)?
So the amount of starter used affects time as well - does it affect taste? Do you achieve "milder" sourdough by using less starter? Or is this more temperature?
I did find a cool article over the weekend that has a formula to help you figure out what the temperature of the water / flour / etc should be if you're storing it in 78 degrees (on the counter) or in the fridge, and how much kneading you're doing. I haven't tried anything with it quite yet though.
I appreciate all of your insight! This has been super helpful!
Benefits of 12/24 hr feed - Only thing that really matters is #1 - I would add stirring though, it keeps fresh food near the bugs. And yes, it's good when most of the food is eaten. If we keep adding food and don't let the bugs multiply to populate the food, we get a slow decline in the % of bugs. The starter gets weak and we get problems.
Amount of starter - you got it - more starter less time and vice versa.
More or less sour isn't so much a matter of how much starter as it is how long the bugs in the starter get to do their thing, which is (the lab - lactic acid producing bacteria - producing lactic acid). If left long enough acetic acid gets produced, and that is the real strong sour. Temps - optimal temps for optimal activity. Too low - less activity, to hot - they may die - not the ideal situation.
The formula, ah the formula. Try it and see what happens. I will say, from the few words you mention - I already see problems. But what do I know! Hope it helps ya. Enjoy!
pulled brad out of the fridge this morning :-) writing down numbers and all that jazz to see if I can get him right around 12 hrs to feed again in tonight and possibly make bread tomorrow morning (or do a small feed and then make bread).
I do admit the formula seems a little over the top, so I'm going to stick with less fermenting time before changing any other variables (except cheese, my husband really wants cheese in the bread and has been waiting patiently). I'll have to post results here :-)
If it's about a week in the fridge, just use it. Then toss a bunch of food in it and stir a couple 3 times. By the time the bread is ready to bake it'll rise a couple 3 times and is ready for the fridge again.
Cheese - I'm big on cheese, but I usually don't put it in the bread - grilled cheese with Vermont cheddar (lot of it here in Vermont and it is good!), tomato and caramelized onion, smidge of brown mustard - mmmmm - now we're talking.
Formula - if it helps, why not. I just get leary about something as formal as a formula for something as informal as making bread. I'd bet the formula would give a more consistent product, but sometimes mistakes are good and can turn into a favorite whatever. I've done this and that and got real sour to no sour, big holes to small holes, but I screwed up one day and I've been making the same mistake since - it's my favorite bread. Go figure - Enjoy!
From what I understand, the less starter you use, the longer you have to ferment to get the rise, so the more sour stuff is created. I'm very technical.
I'd give a dollar to find out what followed Phaz's "ah the formula". For me, it just seems overly complicated. But, if you think it's fun, have fun.
There's a guy on YouTube called "food geek" who does a bunch of experiments with sourdough. He did one on temperature using starter where I think he just varied the water temp. You may want to check it out.
Nothing followed - which is about what I think of formulas until I see the formula, the data used to come up with it and most important the method. I have very high standards of acceptance.
A wise man once said (may have been me - can't remember) - if you can't explain something in few and simple words, you don't know it very well.
Bread is about as basic as boiling water. Boiling water is actually a complicated process, but all we need to know is a very simple thing to achieve the goal - add heat and time. A rule I live by - there's never a need to make things any more complicated than they already are. The KISS principle goes a long way in bread making and many other things.Time to hit some balls Enjoy!
But, I admit, I thought there'd be some snark :).
Must have been in a good mood, or I was a little loopy from too many golf balls - the former rare, the latter more likely!
that sounds interesting! I'll have to look it up :-)
OK. So I found this on reddit by someone who owns a le creuset:
> I contacted Le Creuset's support, and they said it is fine to preheat the pot empty in the oven for bread (and that many of them do it), but never heat the pot empty on the stove.
That makes sense to me because in the oven it is heating evenly. On the stovetop, the bottom will heat faster than the sides. On the other hand, I will heat it on the stove top with just a bit of oil in it if I'm using it and need to brown something, so again what they're saying doesn't fully make sense to me because even with just oil in it, the sides won't heat at the same rate as the bottom.
Looks great. And if it tastes great, it sounds like you won. If your husband doesn't like it just point him to the flour and wish him luck :).
Ha, I love that! And thank you :-)
to make my starter. It took three weeks to become active - maybe longer. Make sure you're using water without chlorine.
thanks! time frame definitely helps to curb my expectations - I'm on Day 14 today :-) filtered water on counter is definitely key!