Discouraging Oven Spring Issue
Hi all,
So it's been nearly a week since I posted my last loafs:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65218/dough-spills-out-too-much-not-just-sourdough
I read every comment, multiple articles online and probably watched this video 5 times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV3at6kqnWw
Armed with that, and a now more mature starter I went ahead and tried again with the same video tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRM
As people said, I reduced hydration down to 65% - the dough became more manageable and didn't spill as much but still way more liquidy than in any videos I watched online.
My starter is now super active, doubling within 4-6 hours after feeding. Levain passed the float test after 5 hours. Autolysed for 1 hour and mixed.
I reduced bulk ferment time, going by sight and touch. Three stretch&folds, nice domed shape, small bubbles on the surface, jiggly inside. It lasted 2 hours and 45 minutes, down from 4 hours last time.
I tried pre-shaping and shaping as to create a nice taut surface without tearing, which I think went quite well. (Another issue I have here, my dough is very very sticky, Joshua's doesn't seem to be that sticky. When I try and rotate it during the shaping with my hand, I just rip it apart. So I had to use a lot of flour on my hand. Is that normal?)
Retarded them as in the video I followed overnight.
This morning I baked, and as you can see in the photo - I would say I got even less oven spring than last time.
I know it's only my second bake and practice makes perfect, but seeing a lower amount of oven spring after adjusting for all the tips you guys gave me and the various videos and articles I read, it's very discouraging.
Plus, being a family of 2, we can't go through that many loaves and my freezer is getting full haha.
I am craving that elusive oven springy bread with nice open crumb and I can't see to get it :/
Any ideas / tips what I can do next time? Where did I go wrong?
that video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRM
calls for mostly US all purpose flour, some US bread flour, and a little whole wheat flour.
In the US, both AP flour and bread flour are white, refined, and basically branless, at .50 to .55% ash content.
How did you match that with your UK flours? You gave a link to the flour company, but I did not see if you specified or linked to the exact flour(s) that you used.
UK uses a bit different terminology, so you need to focus on the specifications. Whole wheat in the US might be called whole grain in the UK.
US AP flour is about 10.5 to 11.5% protein and .50 to .55% ash.
US Bread flour is about 11.7% to 12.5% protein, and .50 to .55% ash.
Your loaf in this post, and your dough in the previous post, looks like you substituted in some extra Ww flour, or used a flour that has at least some more bran than white flour, which is called "high extraction" flour.
Here's the thing.... if you used a more "bran-y" flour than white/refined flour, but still used the same amount of leaven, and timings, you would overferment the dough.
The loaf in this post is less over fermented than the previous post, yet... in terms of suitability for pronounced oven spring, it is still just a smidgen over-proofed.
(the loaf in this post looks great to me. I think pronounced oven spring is mainly just aesthetic anyway.)
when using a "bran-y" flour, fermentation does not stop in the fridge. Retard means slowed, not stopped. Bran-y flour, with all those enzymes in the bran, boosts fermentation more than branless white flour.
Net: my guess is that you just didn't match close enough to the US flours called for in Joshua's formula. Too much bran (and the attending enzymes) led to too much fermentation. And perhaps UK flours have different hydration requirements than US flours.
Perhaps some of the UK bakers here can help you in that -- Either in matching ingredients, or in finding a formula that better matches what ingredients you do have.
Good luck, and bon appétit.
Wow that's an informative post, thank you so much :)
The flour substitutions I used are:
For the US AP Flour: https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-plain-white-flour-1kg
For the US Bread Flour: https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-strong-white-bread-flour-x-15kg
For the US Whole Wheat Flour: https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/org-strong-wholemeal-flour-x-15kg (this is also the flour I am feeding my starter at 1:1:1 every day)
I don't know how or where I can see the ash content, as this information doesn't seem to be provided. Unfortunately, this is the only organic flour I can get my hands on at my grocery store.
There might be a problem with your first one.
Especially if Joshua's AP flour was King Arthur, which is at the high end of the protein range for AP.
Your "plain" flour, because it says it is for pastry, biscuits, sauces, and pancakes, -- but not bread-- looks like it might be too soft for bread.
(A UK biscuit is a US cookie, I believe. )
Most US Ap flour, especially at the higher end of the protein range, is okay for bread.
Do you have access to a flour in between your "plain" and "strong bread" ? That would more closely match what I think Joshua used.
If not, maybe try a loaf using your strong bead flour for the entire amount of J's AP + bread.
Weak or low protein flour uses less hydration than AP flour, so that would explain the soupiness of your first attempts.
If you use strong bread flour for all the white flour in this formula, you likely will also need to move the hydration closer to the original amount. Higher protein flour generally needs more water, lower protein needs less.
Now that you have some experience, hold back some water and add slowly, judging by how it feels.
Thank you again for your reply, I'm learning so much :)
I don't have any in-between flours as far as I can tell, the only one within the protein range that you mentioned seems to be this one: https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-pasta-flour-x-1kg
However, I have not seen it in the store. Might keep an eye out. Otherwise, I'll follow your suggestion and use the bread flour for both AP and bread flour and increase hydration back up. :)
Now I want to bake again but I have to eat what I made first :( Haha
"this is also the flour I am feeding my starter at 1:1:1 every day"
Did you then make a leaven, by taking 45 g starter, adding 45 g white flour + 45 g whole wheat + 90 g water?
Using all WW flour in the leaven could make it too strong for his formula. ( not too strong in tbe absolute sense, but too strong to be properly balanced with the percent leaven in the formula along with the ferment/proof timings)
Yep, I took 45g of the starter to make a 1:2:2 leaven with Joshua's ratio (45g of the AP flour and 45g of the WW flour)
Because the crumb on this loaf is actually good, here's a baby-step to take...
instead of using all strong bread flour (for J's AP+bread flour) as i previously suggested, maybe just reverse the amounts of Joshua's AP versus Bread flour.
Where he used 500 g AP and 273 g Bread flour... perhaps try 500 g of your strong bread flour and 273 g of your plain flour. Though be sure to mix the dry flours well together before adding water so as to evenly distribute the good proteins of your bread flour.
I mainly want to emphasize that this post's loaf is pretty good and not far from getting your desired oven spring.
--
I recently checked my notes, and it took me 10 (TEN) bakes after starting to measure ingredients accurately, and with DanAyo's help, to get a loaf I was proud enough to show off.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61862/10th-tfl-bake-dec-2-2019
i regret not getting a crumb photo with that one.
The score bursts were not dramatic, but you can see many small expansion cracks on the flour-coated "skin". I did not get the gluten cloak/skin tight and dry enough to force all the expansion to bloom along the score lines.
bottom line: keep at it and take good notes.
Thank you for such kind and encouraging words! I really appreciate them :)
I'll keep doing my best! :)
Just browsing this thread and noticed something, namely a drop in hydration and very sticky dough -and an active starter fed 111 daily. You may have an out of balance starter ie. too much acid, which will kill gluten development. 111 with an active starter probably isn't enough and over time will make it very acidic. Something to think about.
Ah fair enough, I wasn't aware of that, a lot of people seem to have 1:1:1 starters.
What's better then? 1:2:2?
All depends on the starter, more active = more food (at the same temps anyway). 122 is a good place to start for a daily feed schedule.