Dough texture question
I'd like to understand more about dough texture during gluten development and bulk fermentation. Should the dough get firmer over time or stickier and floppier?
I have attempted full proof baking's method of gluten development of one stretch and fold, lamination and 3 coil folds. For the lamination and first 2 coil folds my dough holds together well.
However for the last coil fold and later the pre shape and shape, my dough loses its firmness and spreads right out in the container after the rest period. It is then very sticky to handle and floppy, stretching right out when performing the coil fold.
I may have it wrong but I thought the dough is supposed to start off sticky and floppy and become firmer after the folds, not the other way around.
My temperature here is around 27 Celsius which is 80 Fahrenheit. To account for the temperature I shorten the rest periods between folds and don't go past 4.5 hours for the total bulk fermentation (from when I mix in the levain).
The dough is around 80% hydration with 20% inoculation and 100% wholewheat.
Does my dough sound over fermented or is it supposed to get stickier and looser during the coil folds and after the bulk fermentation? Thank you to anyone who has any thoughts.
whole wheat flour is not a substitute for white (AP or bread) flour.
Are you using a formula that calls for 100% whole wheat? Can you give a link to it please?
Its loosely based on this https://youtu.be/8BvoEWDNRfs however because of my hotter temperature I opted for her usual method of gluten development with a shorter bulk fermentation of 4.5 hours which she has previously recommended for 27 Celsius.
Also I used a lower hydration as I performed a stress test on my flour and found that around 80 to 85% seemed to suit it best.
I'm aware of the limitation of whole wheat however I'm milling my own flour and currently waiting for the arrival of a fine mesh sieve to extract the bran.
I have seen a number of YouTube videos such as the above link and also Food geek who have had success with 100% whole wheat, so I don't want to give up with it yet.
As I mentioned the dough was strong initially but weakened by the last coil fold. Is this usual or should it be the other way round? Should it gain strength and firmness rather than become floppier during gluten development?
home-milled whole wheat is not a direct substitute for store-bought whole wheat.
Here are 7 things to know: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64863/7-things-about-freshmilled-flour
To keep the same timings as with store-bought WW flour , you will need to reduce the % levain used with home-milled, due to the fact that home-milled flour ferments faster.
The bran's enzymes are more powerful in fresh-milled flour, so they turn starch into sugar quicker than store-bought flour.
Kristen takes things to the limits of fermentation. so your fresh-milled flour is likely pushing the dough into over-fermented territory.... and therefore you need to adjust some thing(s). I suggest using less levain.
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for instance... using home-milled flour, I use a 60 minute soak/autolyse (no salt, no levain), only 7% prefermented flour (about 14% levain) with a 3 to 5 hour bulk, and 3 to 5 hour cold proof.
If I want either the bulk ferment or the final proof to go overnight, even in the fridge, I use only half as much starter/levain: 3.5% prefermented flour.
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Home milling is a world of constant adjustments. You will likely need to adjust when you use a different type of wheat berry, or even a different harvest year of the same variety/strain.
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Welcome to the home milling club! Home-milling users you will want to follow include: SheGar, danni3ll3, ifs201, MTloaf, barryvabeach, dabrownman, deblacksmith, pmmcool, UpsideDan, DanAyo, with apologies to any others i missed.
Thank you so much for the information. I will follow your advice. I'm quite new to home milling so it is all an eye opener.
One thing I noticed was the aliquot jar had only risen by about 25% when my dough went floppy, nowhere near the 75% or double that was mentioned in the video. So that led to believe the dough was fermenting slowly, not so apparently.
Thank you again for your help. I greatly appreciate it and am happy to join the home milling club. I will check out the other members you suggested.
home-milled flour generally doesn't get as fine (particle size) as commercially milled varieties, even commercial stone mills.
Hence, the gluten has a farther distance to go when building the gluten strands around the craggy bran bits. and I suppose the craggy bran pokes holes in the alveoli (gluten bubbles) and the dough just doesn't hold as much gas as branless flour, or whole wheat that has been gound into smaller and smoother particles.
One way to mitigate this is to soak (autolyse) before adding the levain. i soak 60 minutes without salt, or 90 minutes if i add the salt up front. (salt absorbs water). this softens up the bran. and gives extra time for the large particles (larger than commercially milled) to get fully hydrated. But you can't let it go too long, because the water activates the enzymes that turn starch to sugar.
Yes I perform 1 hour autolyse without salt. I previously tried a cold overnight autolyse and while the flavour is better the dough didn't hold up to an additional overnight proof. I will stick to 1 hour in future.
When you suggest a 3 to 5 hour bulk fermentation are you counting this from the time the levain is first mixed into the dough? Not after the last stretch and fold.
Also do you have preferred method of stretch and fold for home milled flour? Do you stick to strong stretch and folds or do you use Kristen's technique of lamination and coil folds?
Thanks for your help. I will try a 7% levain next loaf as I like the cold overnight proof. I'm sure it will make a difference.
"When you suggest a 3 to 5 hour bulk fermentation are you counting this from the time the levain is first mixed into the dough?"
That is a common question. Since fermentation starts when levain is added, that is when the 'bulk fermentation' clock/timer starts.
"Also do you have preferred method of stretch and fold for home milled flour? Do you stick to strong stretch and folds or do you use Kristen's technique of lamination and coil folds?"
I have yet to try the lamination procedure. I just don't have the counter space for it.
depending on how fast your home milled flour hydrates, you may have to wait a bit before doing stretch and folds or kneading. I am very gentle while folding in the levain and then the salt. with home milled flour, you don't want to knead or stretch and fold too soon, or else the mass just tears apart. I call the transformation "turning from wet sand into dough." when it 'becomes dough' then wait a tad until it is extensible/stretchable, then you can knead or stretch and fold. I explain this in my 7-things blog post -- there are three major phases that the mass seems to go through.
Yes I read your post and have taken note about the initial kneading. Currently I've been using the rubaud method to mix in the levain and salt. I've even used the stand mixer for 1 to 2 minutes for extra help mixing in the salt. So maybe that's why my dough got too slack later on. Thank you for your insights I will be implementing your helpful advice in future.
Regarding the wheat varieties you mentioned previously, I live in Australia and it appears we don't get all the variety of wheat that's available in the US.
I have one last question, do you make your own AP by sifting the bran from your milled flour or do you use store bought AP? I've ordered a 40 and 60 fine mesh sieve to attempt to make my own AP.
Sifting will definitely make a less bran-y and softer more airy bread, but home-millers just can't get anywhere close to commercially milled white (AP or bread) flour.
I don't sift, but I have seen comments about removing about 14% of the total weight with a home seive. But what is removed is not entirely bran; large pieces of endosperm get caught too. Plus, not all bran particles are big enough to get sifted out.
Net: home-milling equipment can't duplicate the commercial multi-pass roller mills, and the "tempering" procedure they use to prepare the grain, which are needed for highly refined flour.
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I generally use about 10% store-bought AP flour or Bread flour and 90% home-milled flour. I use white flour in the starter/levain, and fold some white flour in when I add the levain. That way, I can have a wetter autolyse, and let the whole grain flour get to the water first.
Thank you for your insight.
in case you were interested, this is how my over fermented loaves turned out today not too bad, edible anyway.
For the next loaves I'll go for the 3 hour bulk fermentation with 7% levain and gentle folding in of the levain. Thanks for your advice
Thank you so much for your help. I took your advice and reduced the levain to 7.7% and 3.5 hours for total bulk fermentation. I performed 1 stretch and fold, lamination and 2 coil folds. I used 100% wholegrain home milled flour.
The end result is my first bunny ear! I am so happy I had to share the result with you and thank you for your great advice.