please troubleshoot: underproofed? bad shaping?
New sourdough baker here. I've been making decent loaves with some rise but now 4th loaf ended up with a frisbee. Could I please get some helpful suggestions on where to go next?
Previous best loaf:
today's frisbee:
I got starter from a friend and keep in fridge, take out about 3 days before bake and feed between 1:5:5 or 1:10:10 and it doubles every 12 hours. I make levain overnight at about 75-80F, doubles in 12 hours. Next morning temp was steady 75 F all day. Autolyse water and flour 1 hour. Next add salt and levain, I tried Rubaud mixing about 10 min (previous loaves just hand mix until incorporated) then 4 sets of S&F every 30 min, and total bulk ferment 5 hours. Then pre-shape, rest 20 min, shape. I have a hard time shaping, the dough slides out always after shaping and looks wet/sloppy. It seems like other pictures on TFL I see the dough is tight and has a nicer skin, round ball look after shaping.
After 5 hrs bulk ferment. bubbles on top, risen about 20%?
Dough during shaping:
The sloppiness makes it is also difficult to flip into bowl with floured towel so seam side is up for retarding. Retard in fridge overnight, covered about 18-20 hours around 36-38F, next morning score, bake directly from fridge in preheated 1 hr dutch oven 450 F, 30 min lid on, 20 min lid off. Internal temp after baking 210F.
Levain (27%)
100% hydration
50 g white bread flour
50 g whole heat flour
100g water
10g starter
Dough
675 g white bread flour
25 g whole wheat bread flour
460 g water
16g salt 2%
Total
800 g Flour (9.3% wheat)
560 g Water 70% hydration
Questions:
Is it better to make levain same day in the morning 1:1:1 or 1:2:2, let it double in around 3-4 hours and then make the dough?
Should I just drop the hydration from 70% to something like 65% untill I get better at shaping?
How should I adjust my bulk ferment time? Should I be fermenting much longer? My previous good loaves were all int the 3-5 hour range.
Thank you!
If the dough is sloppy when using white (bread) and whole wheat flours, with 70% hydration, the bread is way overproofed. And way undercooked.
Try lower hydration, cut the bulk ferment time in half. It's not clear from your description how much time you are using in bulk vs final proof. Any of the times you listed are far too long.
Total bulk ferment at room temp from adding levain to shaping (including stretch and folds) is about 5 hours. Then after shaping into the fridge overnight. I will try lower hydration next weekend and keep you posted :). thank you
It didn’t rise enough in bulk and went straight into the fridge after that - it is *underfermented*. Agree the dough is too wet, or at least was not developed properly ( needed more folds during bulk ). I’d say: Lower hydration 5%, develop it better in early part of bulk fermentation and wait for 50% volume increase and little bubbles visible on sides and bottom. Then preshape, short rest, shape and into fridge. It is almost impossible to overproof the final proof if it’s in the fridge.
I had this problem today. I think my dough needed another folding before the final shaping or it needed cooling down in the fridge to stiffen up the dough overnight. Yours looks a little more underfermented than mine. Maybe you need a few more sets of folds too. I think we both need to reduce the hydration a bit and let the dough ferment longer.
How are you maintaining the starter? It needs to be fed and partially risen (showing signs of life) before storing in the fridge. A peaked starter can go hungry quickly, even in the cold.
When I'm not using my starter I've been feeding starter 1:5:5 and immediately putting in fridge. When I take it out about 5 days later I feed it 1:2:2 for the first feed and it is slow to double the first feed. Next day it is usually back to doubling 1:5:5 in 12 hours. How long do you leave it out before putting into the fridge, 1-2 hours?
the starter. This will certainly reduce the yeast population. I let my starter start to rise and about a third risen before chilling. Then I know it can coast to the next bake easy in one or two weeks.
If feeding 1:5:5 and then chilling the yeast haven't had the chance to increase their population or build up enough acid from bacteria to fend off invading microorganisms found in the fresh flour food. If you like chilling right after feeding, you might want to reduce the feeding to a 1:1:1. Saving the larger feedings for warmer temps and before baking.
Do you think that keeping my starter out at room temp for a week and feeding twice a day would help it improve? I can take it out now for a bake this weekend.
on the counter would perk it up fast. Take it out now and let it ferment to peak and let it fall just a little bit to make sure there are plenty of bacteria. No need to have it out the whole week if it seems to be recovering with just one or two feeds. Feed it, let it rise to peak height and with a little leveling and starting to fall. Reduce and feed it again. Let the starter set the pace not the clock. (Never hurts to look though.)
When happy with the starter, feed it the 1:1:1 and chill or the 1:5:5 and wait for some rising first before chilling. Taste your starter to learn how it changes when just fed and when it is peaked and more sour tasting. (Cold starter tends to lack aromas and tastes more bland than a room temp starter.)
Saw a great left-over starter idea. Heat up a fry pan, pour in the extra starter and top with chopped onions and garlic, peppers, salt, pepper, herbs or seeds and flip over to finish for a tasty little savoury snack. Serve on a small bread board cut in wedges and a dip if needed. A couple strips of bacon? Cheese topping? Mini pizzas? Etc.
I've lowered my hydration down to 66% and workder harder on slap on folds, now doing 300 and my bread is much improved! my best oven spring yet :) Thank you for all your comments. Still working on scoring since I only have a knife, getting a lame this week.