Please Help, Sourdough flat
I urgently need help, I hit a wall. I watched many videos, tried many techniques but nothing seems to work. At the end I have a flat bread and can't understand why. I'm on the point of scream.
I understand it can be numerous things so I will explain my recipe step by step to see if someone has an ideia what might I be doing wrong.
Recipe:
500g flour ( 250g Flour type "00"+ 200g spelt flour type 1850 + 50 Rye Flour type 720)
340g water
80g starter (rye bread flour starter 100%)
12g salt
Method:
The night before I feed my starter and leave it on the kitchen bench all night to rise. I feed it directly to the jar I keep my starter and use it from there.
First thing in morning as I wake up I start making bread. I mix the flour and water (30°c) and leave the bowl covered for 2-3 hours to autolyse in the kitchen table. Next I add the starter and kneed it for around 4-5 minutes with slap and fold. Leave it to rest 30 minutes and then add the salt and kneed it again. Leave for one hour and fold it a couple of times. I do this 4 times every hour. Last time I pre shape it, leave 1 hour and then last time shape it with flour in table and put it on the banettone, covered and into the fridge to bake next day at 250° on dutch oven.
The beginning I was doing with 80% water, but reduce it to 75% and still the problem is always the same. Always very wet and colapses, it doesn't hold shape. if I leave it for 5 minutes in table it just starts spreading to the sides, and this is what happens in the pre-shapping and when baking therefore getting a very flat bread.
The starter is good, full of bubbles and air, so I guess it can not be the starter. Can it be the flour I'm using? too much bulk fermentation? not kneed enough. I just can understand, Starter is healthy, after autolyse the dough has a good window pane (very stretchy) when starts bulk fermentation it creates air bubbles, but it never stops being extremely sticky (work with wet/damp hands and table).
Please help, any advices are welcome. I got to the point that trying to fix it the bread is coming worse every time and is wrecking my head.
Spelt flour isnt as strong with its gluten structure compared to white flour or other whole grains so it wont hold its shape as well and doesnt rise as much.
Spelt also absorbs less water compared to other flours so I wouldnt go too high on hydration.
If you can change from 00 to a strong bread flour that will also help.
I use a wholegrain spelt/strong white flour mix and got it down pretty well.
bulk ferment temp around 78/80 degrees
30 mins autolyse
12 stretch fold leave 30 mins
6 folds leave 30
6 folds leave 30
6 folds leave 30
preshape leave 30
final shape and place in banneton, rest for around 30/45 mins to rise a do finger poke to see when ready then fridge
leave in fridge from 12 to 17 hours to retard, (havent gone longer yet)
bake
Andy, there are many kinds of 00 flour. Some of it is strong bread flour.
For example, here are Caputo's offerings: http://www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour
(I'm deducing this person is in EU.)
Definition of 00, and other Italian specs are here: http://www.theartisan.net/Flours_One.htm
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I was going to suggest the user was autolysing the wholegrain spelt too long ( type 1850 is likely whole grain) and using too much rye (powerful) starter for 40% whole grain spelt and an overnight proof. Overall, it sounds very over-fermented. They didn't say exactly how long their bulk ferment is. But the description implied that autolyse + bulk + proof went 24 hours. Way too long for that much rye starter and wholegrain spelt.
Yes, I'm from EU and the "00" flour is the what Italians normally use for Pizza dough. Also correct, the spelt flour type 1850 is whole grain, very grainy texture.
So what you suggest doing? less starter? Less spelt flour? Less bulk fermentation?
What about the flour mix? I personally don't like just white bread, that is why I'm mixing other types of flours but still didn't understand the complexity of the types of flour and how to mix them so that I have good balance that allows for a good rise but also flavour.
There are a number of possible solutions, you might need to play with them and see which works
Personally id change the 00 to a strong white bread flour, 00 doesnt have as much gluten so adding that to a spelt it will have a lot more difficulty holding its shape.
I would also drop the amount of spelt to 100/150 grams and see how it goes, once you mastered that amount then you can start increasing.
Bulk fermenting is very subjective and you need to look for the signs so its hard to say. I could bulk ferment and its ready in 3 hours, your might take twice that. You just need to look at the signs.
Welcome to TFL!
Which 00 flour are you using please? Brand/company name and trade name. Such as Caputo Chef/Cuoco, Caputo Classica, Caputo Saccorosso, Caputo Superiore, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Pizza a Metro, Caputo Americana, etc. (Not all 00 flour is pizza flour.)
Also, what is your baking background? Have you baked white flour sourdough loaves before? Or is this your first attempt at bread making? (This could help people tailor advice to your level of experience.)
and skipping the retard?
Well I'm a professional chef, so I know my way around the kitchen. I did some Pastry and bakery in my early years but this is the first time I got into sourdough baking. I know I'm probably did it hard on me by starting with a high percentage of water and a mix of flours. I understand the techniques I think I just need to get my flour mix right.
The flour type "00" is a Polish brand so have no ideia if it good or not.
So maybe trying change flour for a strong bread flour and reducing the spelt flour mix, let's say 350g bread flour 100g spelt 50g rye? Or maybe use bread flour, whole wheat and spelt 300g + 100g + 100g?
What about the method I'm using, autolyse 3h, mix starter and salt kneed and then coil fold every 1h 3-4 times?
Another thing I have my sourdough starter in the fridge and when I want to use it I take it out of the fridge and feed it and after I take it straight from there. I saw some people take some of the mature starter put it in another recipient, feed it and use it. Is there any diference using directly from the original starter jar?
Thanks for the help.
Agree with Andy on the spelt. try 400g "00"/ 50g spelt / 50g rye
also lower hydration to 65-70%. some flour just dont need as much water.
If after your last stretch and fold, window pane test is still good then you have good gluten. beyond being very stretchy,it needs that thin see-through pane that doesnt tear.
also make sure the dough has enough spring in it before the bake. otherwise might be over proofed.
Whether you feed directly into the starter jar or not, the main difference is this. Setting up a separate jar to make the levain can prevent accidentally using all the sourdough culture in a dough and/or forgetting to feed what is left in the jar before the dishwasher, clean up crew, bad water, bad flour or oven gets ahold of it. Also some levains are fed differently than the maintenance feeding. In the long run, keeping a separate sourdough culture with its own maintenance schedule adds consistency and often a longer life to the starter. It is easy to keep a small amount of culture and take portions of it to inoculate for more culture. When it gets low or shows signs of weekness, it can be fed and pampered without much waste if any.
It just a matter of choice. Some culture owners dont have any problems using their starters keeping only one jar but I would advise keeping a back up starter, either dried or as a sleeping firm starter for accidents, power outages, lapse in baking habits etc. I would sugest making back up starters regularly if you have a very good starter no matter how you maintain it. Hey, I even have a back up starter at Mom's and we have a member who keeps one or two at "the cabin." :)
Just to be clear on the health of the starter.... mix up a dough say 10g with 20g water and 30 to 40g white wheat flour and a pinch of salt and knead it into a medium soft dough shaping into a ball. Weigh it. Let it sit loosely covered in the bottom of narrow tall jar packed level. Mark the level and dough temp and see what it does in the next 12 hours.
More often than not, when the dough problems are non specific and getting gradually worse, when hair is being pulled out, or strange cries are heard coming from the rooftops of tormented sourdough bakers, the starter is somehow to blame. First place to look for anything "off."
Poke it with something like a chop stick gently to see if it gets sticky (and maybe even gooey) but not enough to deflate it. Take notes and photos and get back to us. Check on aroma too. I am especially interested in the shape of the gas bubbles and how they behave during fermentation.
Tip: if you mark the jar with a strip of tape going from the bottom of the glass to the top, it can be easily transferred to your notes. Be sure to mark the bottom (inside) of the glass on the tape. Allow at least 5x headspace in the glass for rise.