Hello all,
I've been using Pillsbury AP four and their bread flour (13%) when making my SD loaves, using Ken Forkish techniques. Due to Covid I can not find 5 lb bags of the bread flour anywhere and had to resort the other day to buying a 25 pound bag of Primo Gusto High Gluten (14%) flour from a local restaurant supply.....ish type of store.
I made my first loaf yesterday and had the throw it out at the shaping stage as it was completely fallen apart. I had autolysed the flour overnight (eight hours which is what I almost always do) and the dough had 500 grams of flour. Half AP, half Primo Gusto and 10% whole wheat. 77% hydration and I use a stiff (65%) bread flour starter which has been performing fine. I noticed yesterday when mixing and doing my stretch and folds that is seem loose and like it wasn't developing much gluten strength. As I would do my stretches I would notice tears in the surfaces. Come time to pre shape and shape it wouldn't hold any form. Tossed it out.
Started a new loaf today and dropped hydration to 71% and it seems to be acting bit better although I'm only halfway through bulk fermentation. I'm still noticing some tears as I stretch and fold.
Any ideas as to why a bread flour with 1% more protein is not able to handle as much hydration and doesn't seem to want to develop good gluten strength? Even at 71% hydration. Thanks in advance for any responses.
Best,
wvdthree
It sounds like your new flour might be bleached and/or bromated. What does the front package label and the back/side panel official "ingredients:" say?
Bleaching, depending on the chemical used, ages the flour. And potassium bromate ("bromated") makes it more extensible/loose.
Not only lower hydration, but much less/no autolyse would be called for, if so. No more than 1/2 hour, just guessing.
I'm not sure how bleach/bromate would affect stretch-and-folds tearing. But there could be a relationship there,
Thanks Dave. Just checked and the four is enriched,bromated and bleached. I'll try your recommendations. Thanks so much.
WV, I got a very nice and helpful PM from another user setting me straight on the effects of bleaching and bromating.
So... while I worded it incorrectly, and got some of the theory wrong, the actual _performance_ of your new flour is pretty much still (likely/most likely) due to the effects/presence of bleaching and/or bromating, compared to your previous flour which was neither bleached nor bromated.
(Prior to your post, I was just reading up on "flour treatments" on Wikipedia. Bleaching/bromating is something many/some bakers/pizzerias prefer because it speeds things up in terms of production. They can make and shape their dough _faster_. So if that's true, your long autolyse/ferment could be too long with this "fast" flour. Does that make sense? Let me know if I'm thinking it backwards.)
And while bleaching/bromating is not necessarily bad for baking in and of itself (arguments about the health effects of potassium bromate aside), it seems pretty obvious (to me at least) that that is the "likely culprit", and is not "compatible" with one or more of your procedures.
And, just going by how bromate makes a dough more "extensible" (although it can also make it "hold gas better") and your dough is "falling apart", I see some kind of connection.
Whether it's adjusting hydration, or shortening the autolyse time, that's just a guess on my part... but my bet, my hunch, is on autolyse time.
And to clarify something in previous comment... I meant to suggest an autolyse "of" 1/2 hour, not "reducing by 1/2 hour." Again... just a gut-feel/hunch on my part, as I have not used your formula, nor any bromated flour myself.
I'm sure a professional baker/pizzaiolo who has used bromated flour could explain it better and give a more accurate recommendation on how to use your new flour.
Bleached/Bromated flour seems a big no-no in _artisan style_ baking. We _want_ the long times so as to develop flavor. We want slow, not fast. So it seems "logical" to me that reducing the "artisan-style" procedures/timings would help you get through the 50 pound bag of flour with acceptable/edible results.
When you use this bag up, it will be up to you whether to get the "unbleached/unbromated" version next time, or whether to make/keep your adjustments permanent to this type of flour.
sorry if I made this overly complicated. ;-) Good luck, amigo.
Thanks for the additional thoughts Dave. It was a $9.00 25 lb bag of flour so I won't be the end of the world if I have to pitch it. I'll try again tomorrow and drop hydration and autolyse time. Since I bought this from a restaurant type supply store it would make sense that's it's aimed on getting quick results for pizza restaurants etc.. I just wish I could find my 5 lb bags of Pillsbury bread four. I don't even think I can find bags of KA bread flour in my market. All of the home bakers since Covid have gutted the four shelves. The enclosed shot is of today's attempt 30 minutes after pre shape. Pretty ugly.
71% but the same eight hour autolyse.
Here are two high protein flours from General Mills. If you are near a large city (Charleston, or Wheeling, WV perhaps?) one of the GM distribs or bakery/pizza suppliers might have one of these.
If you follow the link, there will be a form on the right hand side. Enter your zip code and click the button, and you should get a list of nearby distribs. Hopefully, they will do "counter sales" and you can arrange to pick one up. Have the 5 digit part # handy, not just the name. The "name" comes in different combos of bleached/unbleached, and bromated/unbromated.
Some distribs will also carry King Arthur. KA AP is called "Sir Gallahad" in the 50 pound bags. KA Bread flour is called "Special Patent" in the 50 pound bags.
Here's the GM:
"Full Strength", unbleached, unbromated, enriched, malted, 12.6% protein, 50 lbs, code 53395. .56% ash. https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/full-strength-unbromated-enriched-malted-50lb
"Remarkable", unbleached, unbromated, enriched, malted, 13.6% protein, 50 lbs, code 57162. https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/remarkable-enriched-malted-50lb
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Here's a weird thought... there might be _one_ flour that has the protein and baking characteristics that you otherwise seek in a mix of AP + Bread flour. One candidate might be this one:
"Harvest King", unbleached, unbromated, enriched, malted, 12.0% protein, 50 lbs, code 53722.
https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-winter-wheat/harvest-king-enriched-unbleached-50lb
I assumed your previous Pillsbury AP and Pillsbury bread flours were both unbleached & unbromated. Can you confirm?
I know the Pillbury AP was unbleached and I think not bromated. The bread flour bag did not say it was unbleached so I think it probably was bleached. Next to the AP flour it did appear whiter.
I just got back from Trader Joe's where I bought two 5 pound bags of their AP which is unbleached and not bromated and supposedly 13% protein. I read some good reviews of it this afternoon.
I may try the Primo Gusto flour again with little/no autolyse and 65% hydration. That really flys in the face of what I've been doing with my last combo of flours using usually around 75-78% hydration and overnight autolyse. Live and learn. I really haven't changed flours in the last 16 months since I started making SD.
For the purpose of clarity.
Potassium bromate is an oxidising agent. Therefore it will strengthen the dough.
I apologize if this is a little off topic, but can you tell me more about your "stiff starter" technique?
It's a starter I got at a SD bread baking class at my great local SD bakery. It's all bread flour, 65% hydration. Very stable and low maintenance which I like. I've messed around with rye/whole wheat/AP more hydrated (100%) starters and have had some problems getting them to be really active and stable. I can't really comment on how my stiff starter reacts or how it may give different results with regard to fermentation, crumb, crust etc. as I don't have much point of comparison.
WV, Did you machine mix, or just hand mix? if machine mix, how long? or if Rubaud method, how long?
How many sets of stretch-and-folds? How long was/is your bulk ferment?
also, do I understand correctly that come shaping time, the dough is both loose/slack _and_ is tearing?
mwilson has me wondering... if the bromate causes the gluten to set up early on, could you be overworking the dough and breaking it down?
I could be barking up the wrong tree about the bromate, but that seems to be the major thing that changed. Though it is pretty common for different flour to behave... just differently. Not all techniques work with all flour -- different flour needs... different techniques.