Old dough, pate fermentee, pasta di riporto, criscito
Hello everyone--
I've found myself in a bit of a quandary.
I've been making what I figured was sourdough for 21 years from the same "starter." I got the idea back then watching Baking with Julia on PBS. In the episode I watched, someone made what they called a levain by cultivating natural yeast in a little ball of dough, and then they baked with it, reserving a piece for the next loaf. I tried it and failed several times. Then I ran across a recipe on the internet (I don't seem to have saved it) that explained the approach more clearly. I followed that method for many years with a lot of success. Basically, I got a natural levain going, I added it to new flour, etc, made a loaf, took a piece out and stored it in the fridge. I could store it for days or weeks or even months. It was very resilient.
My method eventually turned (by total accident) into a no-knead method. Using this method, I have made bread at least once a week. I've shared my "starter" with others and taught them how to do it.
Recently, for reasons everyone can guess, I've had to make more bread than usual. I figured I'd tweak my technique in the hopes of getting better more consistent results. I turned to the internet, thinking it'd be positively lousy with advice on this method. I haven't found very much. I have found, as you might have guessed, tons on sourdough--several YouTube channels with slow-mo shots of folding and laminating. I've decided to try to adapt some of their techniques to the old dough or whatever-you-call-it method (what do you call it?) I'm using. I've had mixed success.
I have a million questions, but I'll start by asking whether anyone employs this method regularly--
All the best--
I'll comment on myself as this hasn't generated a lot of reply.
During this recent pandemic, I decided to calculate the hydration, etc. of the process. I start with a 200g piece of fermented old dough, the criscito, or whatever you call it--what do you call it? It's about 60 percent hydration, so fairly stiff. BTW, I make this from 40g of the previous loaf, 60g water, and 100g flour. I knead it to a ball and put it in a bowl in the bridge (with plastic wrap secured by a rubber band). When I make bread, I then add 350g of new flour and 300g of water for a fermentolyse. I let that sit and then add the salt, I do some folds (I've tried several methods). Up to this point everything seems to be fine. I've had excellent results and not-so-great results. It always rises, but I've only recently begun to measure this.
What I don't know is this: how long should I do bulk on this? Are temperatures different because it's already fermented? Or does this not matter and I can proceed as if I were adding a levain according to the many well-known sourdough recipes?
I like the old dough method because I don't have to feed a starter or anything. I also scrape the board of any excess flour right into the old dough. I also used to put just about anything into it--including old breadcrumbs, Bob's 10 Grain Hot Cereal, and various other flours. All of this worked pretty well.
Thanks for your insights--
Since you're inventing your recipes from scratch, it's pretty much a matter of experimentation.... try this, try that, see what direction things go, was it better or worse?... that kind of thing.
"Old dough" is a form of biga or "firm starter". If I recall correctly, Peter Reinhart has some of those formulas in "Crust and Crumb", and in "Bread Baker's Apprentice."
Firm starters/bigas don't have to be refreshed very often, so baking once a week is enough of a refreshment. The higher the hydration, and the warmer the storage temp, the more frequently it needs fed/refreshed.
Also, the tiny amount of salt in the saved dough likely helps preserve it and slow down fermentation.
It sounds like you've found your groove.
Thanks for the information--Strangely, that book is as unavailable as the flour it discusses. I'll track it down when we return to more serene times.
To be clear, I don't refresh anything, I throw the old one in the new dough, and the create a new one out of that. Here's a question:
Is there a rule-of-thumb optimal percentage of starter/levain/etc? I realized when I started to get scientific about this that I had 50 or more percent by weight. Today I'm going to cut that back to 20 (which seems advised by various sources on my unscientific survey).
Thanks again!
"To be clear, I don't refresh anything, I throw the old one in the new dough, and the create a new one out of that."
I'd still call that refreshing. Logically, you added a bunch of flour and water to your firm starter, used most of it to bake with, and kept aside a small portion. That is _exactly_ what most people do with starters: Feed it, use most of it, keep back a small portion. The only two differences in your case : 1) you used a higher feed-ratio, 2) it may or may not have added salt.
You may be thinking how some people first build a levain from only part of their starter, and feed the levain separately from feeding the starter. Many people, myself included, don't do that. I put starter directly in my final dough.
" Is there a rule-of-thumb optimal percentage of starter/levain/etc? "
Any rule would depend on how fermented, how dense a concentration of yeast/LAB , and how active the starter/levain is, and then the length of bulk ferment and final proof. Forkish has a formula in which 80% of the flour is in the biga. I use a wet (100% hydration) starter and only use 3.5% pre-fermented flour for WW bread with an overnight rise. Pretty wide range there.
When you are inventing your own system, the best you can do is find a successful/well-tested pre-existing formula that approximates what you want to do, and use it for a base or guideline.
Thanks again for your reply.
re: refresh: Ah, I see. This makes sense.
re: quantity: I'll keep experimenting.
Many thanks--