Sourdough starter help! 3 weeks old
Hey Fresh loaf community!
I'm after some help with a 3 week old starter
I used the perfect loaf recipe as a guide. I started with a 1:2:2 ratio with a mix of 1/2 AP Flour, 1/2 Wholemeal Spelt. I'm using filtered water. Have switched to a 1:1:1 ratio in last week too see if it would improve the strength of my starter. Couldn't achieve a rise compared to perfect loaf recipe. I managed to achieve a double rise over approx 6 hours, haven't achieved anything similar since. Changed ratio to see if it could solve the issue, have also reduced starter size to save on flour. I started with twice daily feeds 4 days in, then switched to single daily feeds about 1 week ago
I've attached a current photo of my starter and one when it achieved a good rise.
Would like to know how I can improve overall health/strength of my starter. Is it possible to achieve a rise over double the size?
Any feedback is appreciated!
Thank you
Chris
I can't even figure out what happened. :) Maybe put it all in consecutive order.
Did you follow the recipe? What are the temperatures of starter and room? What is the temp of the oven with the light on? Has it gotten better or worse with using the oven light?
The starting ratios sound strange... 1:2:2 what do they mean? (starter:water:flour?) Twice a day feedings on day 4 followed by less feedings a week ago? It all sounds backwards. A rise then no rise, any other signs of fermentation? How did it smell? Not trying to scare you off but.... Lets start over. Take a deep breath and tell us.
Haha oh no!
So I followed the recipe from the perfect loaf. It started with a 75g starter, 100g flour (50g AP, 50g spelt),115g water. After day 7 switched to 50g starter, 100g flour, 100g water as wasper recipe. Only difference is I used spelt instead of rye. I never achieved a rise as seen on the recipe though
It has started to cool down in Brisbane. Approx 20-23 degrees room temp in kitchen. Oven temp was approx 28-30 degrees. I found that when I had it in the oven it progressed faster. I'm guessing due to warmer environment. I did though find one morning it was a bit dry/crusty on top. So wondered if it got to hot
Since I last checked it had a sour fermentation smell and taste to it it. Wouldn't say it smelled bad. I can see some bubbles so I'm guessing it's still alive.
That photo with double rise was on day 9. I would say it developed a consistent rise but it died off last week. Sorry I haven't taken daily notes of my starters progress
Haha oh no!
So I followed the recipe from the perfect loaf. It started with a 75g starter, 100g flour (50g AP, 50g spelt),115g water. After day 7 switched to 50g starter, 100g flour, 100g water as wasper recipe. Only difference is I used spelt instead of rye. I never achieved a rise as seen on the recipe though
It has started to cool down in Brisbane. Approx 20-23 degrees room temp in kitchen. Oven temp was approx 28-30 degrees. I found that when I had it in the oven it progressed faster. I'm guessing due to warmer environment. I did though find one morning it was a bit dry/crusty on top. So wondered if it got to hot
Since I last checked it had a sour fermentation smell and taste to it it. Wouldn't say it smelled bad. I can see some bubbles so I'm guessing it's still alive.
That photo with double rise was on day 9. I would say it developed a consistent rise but it died off last week. Sorry I haven't taken daily notes of my starters progress
Was the one good rise you got in the very early stages? Like the first 3 days?
Like Mini Oven said, more detail will help a lot.
That good rise was on day 9
I am having the same problem as you I think. After a few weeks in and after having produced about 2 to 3 batches of excellent sourdough bread, my starter stops rising abruptly after 1 to 2 feeds.
There is still plenty of bacterial activity as after 12 hours my starter has turned into a sour soup with all the proteins broken down by the acidity activated enzymes... but with such a tiny rise that one can easily say there is no rise. There are bubbles on the surface but simply no lift.
This is strange because I had consistent doubling or tripling of volume before. This has been already the second starter that died on me in a span of just a month.
My room temp is around 22-23 degrees Celsius with only minor fluctuations during night and day of about 1 degree. I built my starter using a bio T110 rye flower and after 2 weeks converting to a bio T65 stone milled flour from a local miller (I don't want a rye starter because I don't like the taste). I usually feed 1:3:3 twice a day. If I feed less my starter is at its peak too soon (obviously this is during the brief period that the starter is healthy and is able to produce decent bread).
I am now trying to build a white wheat flour starter from the very beginning so that it does not have to be converted afterwards. Who knows, maybe it will work.
Maybe it needs to warm up. Have you been using 26 C water as suggested in the recipe?
It seems like your starter appreciated the warmth of the oven. Being dry and crusty on top doesn't mean it got too warm, it means you need to cover it more tightly to keep the moisture in. Try plastic wrap and a rubber band. Or a lidded yogurt tub works well because the lid is tight enough to keep in the humidity but the expanding gasses can push their way out.
Thanks seaside
I wasn't actually measuring water temp. But wouldn't be suprised if it was below 26degrees
I'll give the plastic wrap a go and see how things progress
to just stop feeding it for a day and let the starter get to peak at its own pace. Day nine looked promissing and in the photo is still rising. So there was once yeast populating the starter.
Not sure if the yeast got too warm, well, let's say it did. Didnt kill off completely but reduced the numbers a lot. Then it would act slowly and need more time to rise and ferment before discarding. When something like that happens, one wishes they had the forsight to chill the last discard until seening the next feeding alive and active.
When it happens, sudden death, and no back-up, let the fed starter work itself out. Give it more time. With each hour and a half the yeast are trying hard to double their numbers. If discarding is done too soon, and/or too much flour is added, the starter will be weaker with each additional feeding especially If feeding is then done by the clock instead of watching the starter itself. That is where i would deviate from the normally sound starter recipe. So let the starter just sit, stir it occasionally, taste and smell it and let it rise on its own around 26°C. Then go back to the instructions.
If the starter after say 12 hours is super super sour tasting, really pucker up type sour (acidic) and flatlined with no rising, then the bacteria are just too large in number and could be telling the yeast to relax and save themselves for when the pH rises with more food. The rescue:
(washing the starter) Divide starter culture. Add enough flour to thicken up roughly 100g starter to a glutinous well blended firmish dough ball. Rest ball for a few minutes and then cut it up with a knife into half inch (1.5cm) slices and let soak in a generous bowl of cold water for half an hour. Remove the slices, much of the acid will have been reduced and also bacteria and their byproducts. Knead the slices into a soft dough letting your hands warm up the starter. Put into the clean jar, mark and allow to rise. With the rest of the sour starter, mark and just observe until it peaks... it just might. If there is no rising at all after 48 hours at 26°C plus, you have two choices, 1) continue as in end of day 2 ...or 2) start a new starter ....or both.
Oven position. If using the electric oven light again, place the starter near the bottom of the oven, away from the light, inside a bowl or jar of water with the thermometer to check the temperature. Lights can get too warm, and sticking a wooden spoon to hold the Door ajar can help lower the temp into the middle upper twenties °C or upper 70's °F.
When the starter peaks, remove some culture, and continue to feed per recipe. Feed equal or more flour than the weight of the starter. Wait for the starter to peak and start to level out before feeding. With consecutive feedings (all things being repeated) the starter will speed up the time it takes to peak. Throw away discard (discard discard) only after the fed starter has successfully grown and risen to the next feeding. As the culture ages and gets stronger and very predictable, it can tolerate the 20° a 23° C room temperature better. The Fluctuating room temps between heating and not heating the kitchen, winter and summer are the craziest times for sourdough cultures and it is good to become sensitive to changes.
I hope this helps. Stay safe, Mini
Wow thank you Mini!!! Hopefully something happens in next 12hrs!
What are your suggestion if I'm unable to observe the starter throughout the day due to work? Is it fine to still leave it out?
as putting it into the fridge will increase the acid if there is too much bacteria in the starter. How does the starter taste?
I had a taste of the starter. It's definitely sour,s wouldn't say it's too overwhelming though
and give it the chance to rise on its own. Be sure to note changes when you can.
Hey mini,
I think I'm going to start over again. I tasted it this morning and it was very sour, didn't appear to have risen
Any advice.going forward. I was going to follow the same recipe again
I would hang on to the current one for another day, then inoculate 10g with 30g each flour and water (maybe a tad less water) and see what it does. Gives you something to watch while the other starter is forming. I would start out with the first day on the warm end of the scale. You were doing well with it only the darn oven probably got too warm. When the yeast show up (day 9) you can lower the temps just a little bit. The second time around will be easier because you've been thru most of it before. You will find it easier to ignore while it works away for you. :)
Because of the Spelt, i might delay the 2x a day feeding a day or two later. Guess I changed the recipe but it did call for rye. After you been baking sourdoughs in your kitchen for a while, the earlier twice a day feedings go smoother. Things just seem to ferment faster.
Great! Thanks for the help again Mini!!!! Fingers cross it will work out this time around :))
although they are flat with bubbles popping on the surface? Maybe check into Thiol compounds. Wink just commented on a recent picture posted. Here are the links. See if this applies and the cure, yes, a cure!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64069/taffy#comment-457485
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18144/sourdough-loosing-elasticity-please-help#comment-121566
in original posting shows a starter with very suspicious goopy starter, almost milky on the sides of the jar. This could indicate thiol problems but i was hoping not. It doesnt show up often but lately there seem to be quite a few cases.