Thanks for your reply Paul. After I posted, i decided to let it go a bit longer because although jiggly ,i didn't see any bubbles on top of the dough so i let it go another hour or more and it grew some more and started to form bubbles at which point i stopped. So i had bulk fermented for a total of about 8 hrs at 22.5c or so. (the beginner recipe stated 8-10 hrs at 21c) It turned out to be my best loaf yet. Up until now, I had been trouble shooting loaves with gummy spots. The Vancouver temperature has been higher than normal(i think 19c made it hard for me to judge fermentation time possibly leading to gummy spots) , and i've lowered my oven temp. ( I suspected my oven was too hot and the crust hardened too soon and left parts undercooked ) and i cheated by adding a quarter tsp of yeast to my dough (I suspected my young starter wasn't strong enough therefore resulting in unrisen spots causing guminess). So now that i've changed so many variables, I'm not sure what change made this loaf successful. But i'm curious, if my 1/4 tsp of yeast made the difference. Maybe i shouldn't have added the yeast so i can at least tell if my starter has gotten stronger. Oh well, I'm just happy to have a good loaf!
Hi Paul, I posted this question in another thread but didn't get a response. I'm trying to understand how this yeast thing works. I guess my question is , is yeast activity and peaking just another way of saying yeast concentration?
Ok this might sound like a dumb question but here goes. Let's say i take some starter and feed it 1:1:1 and i take some starter from the same mother and feed it 1:2:2. All other factors are constant. same type of flour, temp etc etc the only difference is the ratio. the 1:1:1 starter should peak first because it has less food right? so let's say the 1:1:1 starter peaks in 6 hours and is ready to use. and of course the 1:2:2 starter hasn't peaked yet. so if i go ahead and use the 1:2:2 starter anyway, it's not going to perform as well as the 1:1:1. is the reason for that, because the concentration of yeast in the 1;2:2 starter isn't as high since there's still uneaten food in that starter?
And what happens to the yeast when it runs out of food, does it revert back to its spore state?
And when the yeast has food, it's metabolizing the starch and multiplying at the same time too right?
And if i use the 1:2:2 starter before it has peaked, does that mean it'll just take longer to ferment my dough? Because it'll have to eat the food in the dough. If i give it' the time it needs, will my loaf turn out just as well as the 1;1:1 loaf with less fermentation time?
Yes, when a starter reaches peak expansion, it usually has the highest quantity of yeast cells per unit weight or unit volume.
Yes, there is a relationship between initial starter quantity (inoculation) and quantity of flour in a feeding. 1:1:1 has more starter and less flour than 1:2:2, so will reach peak expansion sooner. Search here fo “lag time”. There have been some good posts about starter growth rates relative to feeding ratios.
Before leaving that topic, I should point out that bakers choose when to use a levain based on what they want to accomplish. For maximum leavening, a levain at peak will perform best. For milder flavor, a “young” not-yet-peaked levain might be selected. And so on.
Things have to get fairly desperate for the yeast to revert to spores. A missed feeding or two won’t trigger that response.
Yes, when food is available and other conditions are favorable, the yeast reproduce constantly.
A starter that is used before peak will take longer to leaven the dough than the same quantity of starter that has peaked. To some extent, the slower/longer fermentation will produce a slacker dough. That is partially due to the longer exposure to the acids produced by the bacteria and partially due to the longer time that the protease enzymes naturally present in the flour have to break down the gluten and other proteins. That’s neither good nor bad but it is something that you have to manage. It’s also one of those things that you learn more from experience than from reading.
I just read this on another sourdough website. The first part contradicts what we were discussing..
What Happens when Sourdough Starter is Used Before it has Peaked
When sourdough starter is active but hasn’t peaked yet, it is on its way to increasing its activity levels. Adding it your bread recipe at this stage will cause the dough to ferment quicker. This will result in a sweeter tasting bread.
Don’t worry, the starter will still make your bread rise as long as it is active enough, even though it is not at its peak.
What Happens when Sourdough Starter is Used Right at its Peak
Peak time is considered to be within 20 to 30 minutes of the sourdough starter being at the highest level in the jar.
This is the most common activity level that is used when adding starter to the recipe. It is when the starter has the most leavening power (how much rise it will give to the bread). This will generally result in a better rise in your bread but with a more balanced flavor of sourness to sweetness.
What Happens when Sourdough Starter is Used After it has Peaked
Once the sourdough starter has peaked, it will start to run out of food, and hence start to lose its leavening power.
In fact, using it at this time will actually be when the starter has the least amount of leavening power (whilst still remaining active enough to raise the dough).
"Before peaked" includes everything from "just fed" to "hasn't started to collapse yet". That's a broad spectrum with wildly varying yeast counts. Conceptually, adding less yeast to the dough (via a not-peaked starter) isn't consistent with producing a faster rise. I suspect that the not-peaked starter carries less of an acid load with it, which contributes to the less-sour flavors in the finished bread. But that's only one factor out of many.
At the other end, the yeasts don't all die after a starter collapses. The collapse is usually followed by a second expansion, which indicates that the yeasts are still active. Are there fewer yeast cells per gram of a collapsed starter, when compared to a starter at peak expansion? Quite possibly. I'm too lazy to go look for the data just now.
We humans tend to crave certainty, except in the case of bad news. Sourdough has some reliable characteristics but also many degrees of variability. It's a community of living organisms that respond to their environment. To use it effectively, we strive to manipulate those environmental variables, whether food type or temperatures or pH or hydration or time or... To the extent that we can provide consistent inputs, we tend to see consistent behaviors from our starters. So, experiment. Try things. Take thorough notes. And always understand that there is no such thing as "The Answer". There are a whole lot of answers and some of them might appear to be contradictory until you investigate the underlying conditions. That's at least half the fun of sourdough.
Good morning. Sorry it’s me again with more questions. So last night I mixed a 75% hydration chocolate chip sd. That was around 12am. My starter was taking forever to peak and out of impatience and lack of experience plus it was getting late I decided to use the starter that hadn’t quite peaked. I had kept the unused portion and observed it and it continued to rise til about 1:30am when I went to bed , that’s how I knew it hadn’t peaked when I used it. the temperature was about 21c average overnight and the bulk fermentation time in the recipe said 8-10hrs 21c. Now because I used the starter too soon when do you expect bulk to be done? Will my dough be too slack since it’ll be a longer fermentation and it’s quite a high hydration dough (75%). At this point what can I do to ensure I get maximum oven spring? Your thoughts would be appreciated.
I'm going to let the more experienced people tackle most of your questions, but I wanted to point out that just because your starter continued to rise after you took some to make your dough does not necessarily mean it had not peaked. It is normal for starter to have a second rise when it is stirred or otherwise disturbed. I'm not sure anyone has proven the exact science behind this but some possibilities are that activity stops or at least slows as the COs builds up. By stirring it down or any other degassing, you let the CO2 out so activity can increase. It's also possible that as each little organism eats all the available food in its immediate vicinity, and/or fills its immediate vicinity with waste products (including the CO2 bubbles, but also including ones that don't go away when the dough gets degassed), they become less active. Stirring or otherwise disturbing the dough will redistribute the microbes as well as their food & waste, allowing them to become more active again.
Thank you for pointing that out. Now that I think about it you are right. When I used to do the float test, I would stir it, do the float test which sometimes fails. Then I notice the starter rising again ( could be because it hadn’t peaked or could be your theory of redistribution leading to increased activity). But if the test failed, it would always seem to pass, a short while after I’ve disturbed it. It’s almost like if I stir it, it helps it pass the float test. But either way, if there’s still food to be had, whether you disturb it or not doesn’t it mean it hasn’t peaked yet? Anyway, I’ve decided not to do the float test anymore as I heard it’s not reliable. Not so sure about the poke test for final proofing anymore either.
At the time you wrote, had I seen it then, I would have agreed that the dough was adequately bulk proofed.
Here's hoping your bread turned out well.
Paul
Thanks for your reply Paul. After I posted, i decided to let it go a bit longer because although jiggly ,i didn't see any bubbles on top of the dough so i let it go another hour or more and it grew some more and started to form bubbles at which point i stopped. So i had bulk fermented for a total of about 8 hrs at 22.5c or so. (the beginner recipe stated 8-10 hrs at 21c) It turned out to be my best loaf yet. Up until now, I had been trouble shooting loaves with gummy spots. The Vancouver temperature has been higher than normal(i think 19c made it hard for me to judge fermentation time possibly leading to gummy spots) , and i've lowered my oven temp. ( I suspected my oven was too hot and the crust hardened too soon and left parts undercooked ) and i cheated by adding a quarter tsp of yeast to my dough (I suspected my young starter wasn't strong enough therefore resulting in unrisen spots causing guminess). So now that i've changed so many variables, I'm not sure what change made this loaf successful. But i'm curious, if my 1/4 tsp of yeast made the difference. Maybe i shouldn't have added the yeast so i can at least tell if my starter has gotten stronger. Oh well, I'm just happy to have a good loaf!
Hi Paul, I posted this question in another thread but didn't get a response. I'm trying to understand how this yeast thing works. I guess my question is , is yeast activity and peaking just another way of saying yeast concentration?
Ok this might sound like a dumb question but here goes. Let's say i take some starter and feed it 1:1:1 and i take some starter from the same mother and feed it 1:2:2. All other factors are constant. same type of flour, temp etc etc the only difference is the ratio. the 1:1:1 starter should peak first because it has less food right? so let's say the 1:1:1 starter peaks in 6 hours and is ready to use. and of course the 1:2:2 starter hasn't peaked yet. so if i go ahead and use the 1:2:2 starter anyway, it's not going to perform as well as the 1:1:1. is the reason for that, because the concentration of yeast in the 1;2:2 starter isn't as high since there's still uneaten food in that starter?
And what happens to the yeast when it runs out of food, does it revert back to its spore state?
And when the yeast has food, it's metabolizing the starch and multiplying at the same time too right?
And if i use the 1:2:2 starter before it has peaked, does that mean it'll just take longer to ferment my dough? Because it'll have to eat the food in the dough. If i give it' the time it needs, will my loaf turn out just as well as the 1;1:1 loaf with less fermentation time?
deleted
Yes, when a starter reaches peak expansion, it usually has the highest quantity of yeast cells per unit weight or unit volume.
Yes, there is a relationship between initial starter quantity (inoculation) and quantity of flour in a feeding. 1:1:1 has more starter and less flour than 1:2:2, so will reach peak expansion sooner. Search here fo “lag time”. There have been some good posts about starter growth rates relative to feeding ratios.
Before leaving that topic, I should point out that bakers choose when to use a levain based on what they want to accomplish. For maximum leavening, a levain at peak will perform best. For milder flavor, a “young” not-yet-peaked levain might be selected. And so on.
Things have to get fairly desperate for the yeast to revert to spores. A missed feeding or two won’t trigger that response.
Yes, when food is available and other conditions are favorable, the yeast reproduce constantly.
A starter that is used before peak will take longer to leaven the dough than the same quantity of starter that has peaked. To some extent, the slower/longer fermentation will produce a slacker dough. That is partially due to the longer exposure to the acids produced by the bacteria and partially due to the longer time that the protease enzymes naturally present in the flour have to break down the gluten and other proteins. That’s neither good nor bad but it is something that you have to manage. It’s also one of those things that you learn more from experience than from reading.
Paul
Thanks Paul. There's so much to learn.
I just read this on another sourdough website. The first part contradicts what we were discussing..
What Happens when Sourdough Starter is Used Before it has PeakedWhen sourdough starter is active but hasn’t peaked yet, it is on its way to increasing its activity levels. Adding it your bread recipe at this stage will cause the dough to ferment quicker. This will result in a sweeter tasting bread.
Don’t worry, the starter will still make your bread rise as long as it is active enough, even though it is not at its peak.
What Happens when Sourdough Starter is Used Right at its PeakPeak time is considered to be within 20 to 30 minutes of the sourdough starter being at the highest level in the jar.
This is the most common activity level that is used when adding starter to the recipe. It is when the starter has the most leavening power (how much rise it will give to the bread). This will generally result in a better rise in your bread but with a more balanced flavor of sourness to sweetness.
(For more information about getting a good rise in your sourdough bread, check out my article “Awesome Sourdough Oven Spring in 10 Easy Steps”.)
What Happens when Sourdough Starter is Used After it has PeakedOnce the sourdough starter has peaked, it will start to run out of food, and hence start to lose its leavening power.
In fact, using it at this time will actually be when the starter has the least amount of leavening power (whilst still remaining active enough to raise the dough).
"Before peaked" includes everything from "just fed" to "hasn't started to collapse yet". That's a broad spectrum with wildly varying yeast counts. Conceptually, adding less yeast to the dough (via a not-peaked starter) isn't consistent with producing a faster rise. I suspect that the not-peaked starter carries less of an acid load with it, which contributes to the less-sour flavors in the finished bread. But that's only one factor out of many.
At the other end, the yeasts don't all die after a starter collapses. The collapse is usually followed by a second expansion, which indicates that the yeasts are still active. Are there fewer yeast cells per gram of a collapsed starter, when compared to a starter at peak expansion? Quite possibly. I'm too lazy to go look for the data just now.
We humans tend to crave certainty, except in the case of bad news. Sourdough has some reliable characteristics but also many degrees of variability. It's a community of living organisms that respond to their environment. To use it effectively, we strive to manipulate those environmental variables, whether food type or temperatures or pH or hydration or time or... To the extent that we can provide consistent inputs, we tend to see consistent behaviors from our starters. So, experiment. Try things. Take thorough notes. And always understand that there is no such thing as "The Answer". There are a whole lot of answers and some of them might appear to be contradictory until you investigate the underlying conditions. That's at least half the fun of sourdough.
Paul
Good morning. Sorry it’s me again with more questions. So last night I mixed a 75% hydration chocolate chip sd. That was around 12am. My starter was taking forever to peak and out of impatience and lack of experience plus it was getting late I decided to use the starter that hadn’t quite peaked. I had kept the unused portion and observed it and it continued to rise til about 1:30am when I went to bed , that’s how I knew it hadn’t peaked when I used it. the temperature was about 21c average overnight and the bulk fermentation time in the recipe said 8-10hrs 21c. Now because I used the starter too soon when do you expect bulk to be done? Will my dough be too slack since it’ll be a longer fermentation and it’s quite a high hydration dough (75%). At this point what can I do to ensure I get maximum oven spring? Your thoughts would be appreciated.
I'm going to let the more experienced people tackle most of your questions, but I wanted to point out that just because your starter continued to rise after you took some to make your dough does not necessarily mean it had not peaked. It is normal for starter to have a second rise when it is stirred or otherwise disturbed. I'm not sure anyone has proven the exact science behind this but some possibilities are that activity stops or at least slows as the COs builds up. By stirring it down or any other degassing, you let the CO2 out so activity can increase. It's also possible that as each little organism eats all the available food in its immediate vicinity, and/or fills its immediate vicinity with waste products (including the CO2 bubbles, but also including ones that don't go away when the dough gets degassed), they become less active. Stirring or otherwise disturbing the dough will redistribute the microbes as well as their food & waste, allowing them to become more active again.
Thank you for pointing that out. Now that I think about it you are right. When I used to do the float test, I would stir it, do the float test which sometimes fails. Then I notice the starter rising again ( could be because it hadn’t peaked or could be your theory of redistribution leading to increased activity). But if the test failed, it would always seem to pass, a short while after I’ve disturbed it. It’s almost like if I stir it, it helps it pass the float test. But either way, if there’s still food to be had, whether you disturb it or not doesn’t it mean it hasn’t peaked yet? Anyway, I’ve decided not to do the float test anymore as I heard it’s not reliable. Not so sure about the poke test for final proofing anymore either.