Dilemma: Never Sour Enough
Here is my dilemma: I get a really sour loaf if I proof the dough for an extremely long period of time. It tastes just like old-school San Francisco sourdough, brimming with tanginess from lactic acid, just the way I like it.
Needless to say, the dough turns to goo from proteolysis and the loaves do not turn out well. In one experiment I proofed for 23 hours at 40° C, the same temperature as in the Larraburu formula, and got a great flavor. I have tried proofing at temperatures from 40° C down to refrigerator temps with less proteolysis and less sourness. Clearly the long proofing time maxes out the production of lactic acid, but proteolysis is the fly in the ointment. I'm sure my starter is good or else I wouldn't be getting this proteolysis/overproofing.
I have pored over the published formulae from San Francisco sourdough bakeries. They baked 24 hours per day, 7 days per week and refreshed their stiff starter 3 times per day. Could this be why their bread was so much more sour than mine? As a home baker it is really not practical for me to follow this kind of starter maintenance regimen.
Thoughts?
I recommend that you start with a search, since over the past 20 years the issues of traditional SF methods, "true" SF starters, and controlling sourness have been discussed here ad nauseum.
San Francisco Sourdough has it's flavor because of the lactobacilli in their area. They won on that one. The rest of us need to do a little work to simulate the flavor.
There is a ton of material on this site.
I'm no expert but I particularly like Peter Reinhart's version from Crust and Crumb. It allows more cold fermentation than most- and then you can add another day on top of that. If that isn't sour enough, keep reading on here.
We love a super sour sourdough. Someday I'll get there!
I thought Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis was the lactobacilli that was originally thought to be unique to San Francisco but has now been proven to be in many sourdough cultures worldwide? So being physically in San Francisco shouldn't be a requirement?
Before posting this, I looked at this map again, which I've seen before. Huh. It doesn't even list L. sanfranciscensis at all. So now I'm just totally confused. But the map does seem to support the idea that the species in SD cultures aren't significantly different in San Francisco than elsewhere. But I think there's really not enough info available on that page to know.
http://robdunnlab.com/projects/sourdough/map/
See now. I knew very little! I've read the basic rhetoric and took it for granted.
This is making for some fascinating reading though. I'm not sure most would microscopic bug poop and bacteria on baker's hands fascinating but whatever! It raises so many questions about creating the perfect environment for the perfect sour flavor.
If you find any interesting bits to share, I'm all ears!
Well, I wouldn't say you are wrong. My information is at least mostly just as much heresay as yours. I thought that map was proof but like I said, when I went back to look at it, it doesn't even list L. sanfranciscensis at all. So I am certainly not claiming I know everything about this. Just fascinated, just like you are!
I realized I forgot to actually include the link to the map in my earlier post, so I edited the post and added the link but I'll add it here, too:
http://robdunnlab.com/projects/sourdough/map/
Lb. sanfranciscensis.
The name makes its more "special" than it really is. To put things into context this is a simple subspecies of Lb. brevis which was isolated many decades beforehand.
Only a certain specific set of SD starters are dominated by this species.
Where is it commonly found:
What do they have in common? White flour and stiff.
Culture composition, including hydration has a strong effect on selecting the microflora.
Very wet starters >100% generally don't show any significant populations of Lb. sanfranciscensis.
Oh! It's considered a subspecies. SO much I have to learn. Tyvm for this info.
Suddenly a stiffer starter is sounding more appealing. Lol. I grew up in California. Southern, so not especially close to San Francisco, but I still had plenty of "San Francisco sourdough" (which I have no idea where it was actually made) growing up.
Post so I'll get updates.
Hi Chris.
Nice to see you're still tackling this one.
I would say that you have in part answered your own question. Frequent refresh cycles do make a big difference.
I am wondering how you keep your starter culture. Is it the very liquid one you spoke of years ago? Or have you fully embraced the stiff starter as documented?
Michael
Hi Michael -
I'm surprised you remember my liquid starter.
After all this time I'm still not getting what I consider a satisfactory SFSD loaf. I should be done with it by now and on my way :) I can make a passable SD loaf but it's never sour enough unless I overproof it as described.
I'm glad you concur with the idea that the difference lies in the way the starter/sponge is treated. The method used by the erstwhile San Francisco bakeries is well documented. Not being a 24-hour baking operation, refreshing a stiff starter every 8 hours and using it for bread production is not practical for me. However, I'm happy to have an answer or at least a theory explaining the dilemma of why it's never sour enough.
Please feel free to visit my blog here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/blog/mixinator
in which I describe my experiments with this U.S. patent: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/cd/3b/0d/f2eb7c00201294/US3826850.pdf
"I thought Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis was the lactobacilli that was originally thought to be unique to San Francisco but has now been proven to be in many sourdough cultures worldwide? So being physically in San Francisco shouldn't be a requirement?"
Agreed. The current thinking is that lbsf settles on the wheat in the field, so it depends where the wheat was grown and the flour milled. When you buy a sack of flour you generally have no idea of its geographical origin. lbsf has been found the world over, debunking the idea that it's endemic to the San Francisco area.
TY for this info!