Hello all,
As I'm fairly new to sourdough, I've been doing a lot of reading, and watching of YouTube videos. I find that the vast majority of people whom I am reading or watching, insist that sourdough baking is a precise science. They state that you must have accurate digital scales to weigh out ingredients in precise ratios, all of which must be calculated based on the hydration of your starter, and your intended dough.
In baking regular bread with active dried yeast, I've seen some similar recommendations, however, I have never once been able to achieve a decent loaf using precise measurements with a digital scale. I've always had to adjust the recipe on the fly, until it gets to the point where it 'feels' right, if i wanted to get a decent loaf out of it.
The original Alaskans, who were referred to as 'Sourdoughs', due to their bubbling pots of starter they carried surely weren't traveling with scales, and calculating hydration percentages. How did these early bakers maintain their starters, and consistently produce bread? The ability to do so was likely the difference between eating and starving, and I'm curious if anyone has looked into how they did it?
As I mentioned, I've never achieved good results with precise measurements, and am looking for guidance on making good sourdough by feel and look, as the recipes I've attempted so far have just not worked out.
Thanks in advance!
Baking_Dad
"Precise" means this:
It does not mean precisely _their_ amounts and percentages.
As you have discovered, you have to adjust to your conditions: your ambient temp, your starter, your flour, your water, your oven.
However, to then replicate your success on subsequent bakes, you must take careful notes of your current successful bake -- what amounts/percentages/temperatures/times/ingredients that you used -- ... and... then.... you... must...
_precisely_ duplicate those exact amounts, percentages, temps, times, ingredients that were previously successful _for you_ and your _local conditions_.
They have now become _your_ precise amounts.
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This replication process is what got me into weighing ingredients. I started out by just eyeballing things, and then adjusting on the fly as the individual mixing, kneading, fermenting/rising processes went on that day, both ingredients and length of bulk/finalproof.
But... I eventually realized, if I measured the ingredients up front, measured the adjustments, noted what worked, then next time I could avoid all the going-back-to-the-kitchen and checking, fiddling and adjusting.
Net: weighing things up front saved me a heck of a lot of time. It's now (mostly) "set and forget."
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The Alaskan prospectors had their routine down. They could use a drinking cup for a measure. And could scratch a line for the flour amount, another for the water amount. After a while they could just "eyeball it".
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Congratulations. By realizing that formulas are mere guidelines, that they "get you in the ball-park," and need to be adjusted for local cnditions, you have now graduated from novice sourdough baker to journeyman.
Well, when starting out, scales can be real handy till you get accustomed to what a certain hydration percentage looks and feels like compared to another. It really is a cheap way to drastically shorten this part of learning curve. Outside of that, nah, you don't really need a scale. I've been at this (and many other types of breads) for a long time and never used a scale. When you do it enough you'll know how wet a dough needs to be for its intended purpose. And - just because you're using the exact same amounts, doesn't mean you'll get the exact same results - variations in percentages of ingredients are just a few of the many variables you'll run into. So, if ya got a scale, might as well use it, and if not, nothing to worry about.
About the dough. Same goes for room, dough and oven temps. Writing about it just makes it easier to communicate and troubleshoot recipes.
So, what is your tangible question about sourdough?
Give us a recipe that didn't work for you and include the type of flour and we might be able to help tweak it for you. Or offer reasons why it didn't work out.
:)
Thanks for the constructive comments! I think what I'm struggling with most, is how absolutely wet and sticky my sourdough is, compared to baking with regular, active dry yeast. It just seems to eat up way more flour than the recipe calls for, and when I think it's finally there and let it proof, it gets sticky again.
The recipe I was trying today was one I saw on a Facebook group for sourdough. It started with a cup of active starter, a cup and a half of water, a half cup of whole wheat flour, and a cup of all purpose flour. I'm using King Arthur brand White Whole Wheat, and KA AP.
The instructions said to mix those ingredients together, and let them sit for at least four hours to 'ferment'. I mixed them together last night, covered with cling film, and allowed to sit overnight, in hopes of developing more flavor. This morning, the instructions were to add a tablespoon of olive oil, a teaspoon of salt, and two more cups of AP flour, knead, and then place in an oiled bowl to proof.
I ended up actually adding more than three cups of flour, and it was still pretty tacky, when I plopped it in the oiled bowl to proof.
The recipe said let it proof for two hours, or until doubled in size, it took just over three hours to double in size for me. Then to pull it out, separate into two balls, and shape for loaves. I was using loaf pans, so I separated the dough, di the tuck under bit to try and get some surface tension, and plopped them in the load pans.
Recipe said another two hour proof, than bake at 425 F for 40 minutes. I let them proof for a little over three hours, and didn't get a whole lot of rise out of either one, then put them into a 425 F oven, with ice cubes in an iron pan for steam, hoping for a heat induced pop.
I ended up baking for an hour, and only have a light brown crust, not dark.. Also, my tucks to increase surface tension didn't meld in to the loaf, so the bottom looks like brain matter with all it's squiggles. I'm waiting on it to cool now, before I cut into it, and see what the crumb looks like. I'm not terribly hopeful, as it feels heavy, but it does sound hollow.
As I said, I'm really struggling with the 'wetness' of sourdough. With active dry yeast, once I get it to the right stage, it's done, and I might incorporate a tablespoon more flour after it's proof when I'm doing a final knead and shape. With the sourdough, I feel like I'm adding more than a cup of flour on the final knead and shape, and it's still asking for more.
Is this fairly normal, and I just need to learn to adjust my expectations?
Thanks!
Baking_Dad
" The recipe I was trying today was one I saw on a Facebook group for sourdough. It started with a cup of active starter, a cup and a half of water, a half cup of whole wheat flour, and a cup of all purpose flour. I'm using King Arthur brand White Whole Wheat, and KA AP. "
...
"Is this fairly normal, and I just need to learn to adjust my expectations?"
I feel your frustrations. Here's my take on what could have happened...
Did the Facebook person say what hydration their starter was? Was it firm starter or liquid starter?
Did they say how they measured "a cup of flour"? Don't be surprised... it's a real controversy. Did they "scoop and level" from a bag of flour? Or did they sift/fluff up the flour and then spoon it into the measuring cup? You can get maybe a 25% variation by weight between those two methods.
Did they tell you the brands of flour that they used?
Did they say what the dough temp, or the ferment temp was supposed to be? Did they say how much over 4 hours you could go? (You "assumed" overnight was ok.) Did they give a temp for the 2nd or 3rd rise?
If you've seen books by Peter Reinhart, Ken Forkish, or Chad Robertson, they generally don't leave those kinds of questions unanswered. But perhaps your Facebook source did leave them unanswered.
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Sourdough is a whole new ball game. Most of us need to "unlearn" some of our experiences from baking with commercial yeast. Yes, sourdough formulas, especially ones with whole wheat, or any kind of spelt, are going to be wet and sticky compared to white flour and commercial yeast formulas designed for baking in a pan.
"Also, my tucks to increase surface tension didn't meld in to the loaf, so the bottom looks like brain matter with all it's squiggles. "
I'm not there to see it, but to me, it sounds like you added too much flour at the later stage, perhaps due to thinking you needed to make it closer in feel to a commercially yeasted loaf. That is a very hard habit to break when transitioning from commercial yeast to sourdough, and when going to higher percentages of WW in dough, and when going from sandwich style bread to artisan style or no-knead style with a more open crumb.
It takes an experienced baker, and a dang good writer, to write a formula that can be understood merely from the written word. What assumptions is the recipe creator making? What assumptions are the recipe readers making? Are they the same assumptions?
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"ice cubes in a pan for steam". Could be a factor if the recipe did not call for steam. Too many ice cubes, or cool water, robs heat from the oven as it sucks up energy to turn to steam. (Most steam instructions call for boiling water, or just a couple ice cubes.) Cool water, or too much steam even from boiling water, also tends to cool the baking stone or baking vessel directly above it. Steam starts out at 212 F, and as it enters 425 F air, it robs energy and cools the air, so the steam gets hotter, andthe air gets cooler fast, until the heating elements slowly build up the air temp again.
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In the "journeyman" stage, you're now in the process of learning what are the possible assumptions that recipe-creators make, and what your own unconscious assumptions are.
And that's where most of us go wrong... making the wrong assumption... and it's usually about what is an acceptable substitution, addition, or shortcut.
People who say "I followed the recipe exactly" are always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS wrong, unless... they used the exact same flour, the same water, the same yeast/starter, the same salt, the same measuring method, the same mixer, the same baking vessel/set-up, the same oven, and all the same procedures, temperatures (including ferment/proof temps), and times.
It's all a wibbly-wobbly, inexact, "kinda sorta" kind of mish-mash and voodoo.
Light crust is a sign of over fermented/proofed dough, along with lack of oven spring and dense crumb. If it was fermented overnight at room temps, and starter is active, it's to long. As was the proofing time - which looked to be 5 hrs. No tension is another over fermented/proofed sign - gluten has broken down and no gluten no tension. Using half the amount of starter, or less, would probably have given better results (less starter would allow for longer fermentation/proofing times). Just a little adjustment and back in business!
I forgot - overnight fermentation (especially with a large starter amount) is best done in the fridge. Cool slows down the process - which I think was needed here. Enjoy!
I bake with cups (a mug) and a tablespoon (which just so happens to be 15ml! Its big). Everything else I do in pinches, palms and by eye. Im testing a different stretch and fold idea today as Ive not been wowed by my results of sourdough so far. They are still nice loaves. I just want to get a better feel for it.
I dont follow recipies, just ratio guidelines of ingredients and method, if theres something specific like learning Milk Bread.
I cant get on board with all these specific and super exact processes... I simply dont have the setups of a more accomplished baker so I use my engineering and Dad skills.to work it out and make it work. This sounds like you.
I also realised from the start that all recipies needed some adjusting one way or another and theres always room for movement when you know how to perform the adjustments in a successful way.
To do this kind of baking you need to 'Normalise' your eye. I know my spoon is 15ml. I know my mug is 4 heaped tablespoons. I divvied up a 3oz pack of fresh yeast to see what 14g then 10g then 8g looked like ( by eye :p ). Theres a small pinch, a pinch, a good pinch and a full pinch (5 fingers).
Ones methods of incorporating initial ingredients should be the same by muscle memory and you'll know within a few turns of the spoon if you need more water.
Make pizzas a lot. Play with your dough a bit, make a sandwich loaf, make milk bread. Try different yeasts. During that time have a starter brewing. Youll have fermented and shaped enough dough by that point to have a better go at Sourdough By Eye. Ive been Dad Coronabaking since April to keep the family eating bread. Learned a lot, still a lot to learn.
The process Im trying today is a mixture of throwing dough and stretch and fold. My dough was a little stickier than usual and was clinging to the bowl. So rather than attempting it turn it out, wrapping the coil, I just pulled at the dough with one big handful until it all came out, tossed it instead until tighter, then folded to a ball. Pizza tossed it and then enjoyed huge folds, twice. If that doesnt put in good air, nothing will. If this is successful Ill write it up.
Thanks for all the helpful advice! Looks like this one was just a waste of flour. I tried cutting it to check it this morning, and the crust was hard as a rock. I don't mean a little stiff, I mean hard as a rock, a quarter inch down into the loaf. It was weird, I've never seen that before. The crumb itself was a little dense, but not bad, still soft. However, as I'd left it to ferment overnight to develop flavor, it had really developed the tang! My wife a daughters took a taste of the crumb, and I saw immediate wrinkled and puckered faces. I didn't think it was too bad, but I'm not sure you could use it to make a sandwich without it overpowering anything you put on the sandwich.
I've got to figure out a balance of fermenting, so I get a nice flavor that isn't overpowering, correct proofing, and holding the energy when I shape it, so that I can get a decent loaf to use for daily sandwiches and what not.
I'm going to start digging for a new recipe to try one day this week....
For that, its generally instant or dried yeast. Fresh yeast if you can.
3 cups strong flour. 1 cup water. 1 dose yeast. Pinch salt. 2 pinch sugar. Glug of oil. Mix well with twisting and tangling incorporated and knead, again with good tangling of gluten. Rise doubled, knock and shape. Second rise in tin. Bake on low.
comes with the territory. You have to learn to be sparsome with the bench flour. If you don't have a bench scraper might think about finding or making one. I use a plastic one normally used for dry wall taping. It's easy to clean and won't scratch up my counter top. It is about as wide as the length of my hand, finger tip to wrist. I use it with my dominant hand and with a little practice helps a lot to move dough around. I've also used one of those small thin teflon cutting boards as a scraper.
You can eliminate bench flour too. Yup, just very lightly oil your favourite spot on the counter and then use a water mister for a very light slick surface. Have a bowl handy to wet tips of fingers using just enough water to keep from sticking, it doesn't take much and you may find yourself enjoying this. This does add moisture to the dough so use water sparingly. It does take a few loaves to get used to it and figure out just the right amount of water. One more trick for the tool box.
Sourdoughs do feel wetter as they ferment and will feel stickier when compared to instant yeast dough. Be fast with your touching of the dough and try not to rub the surface sideways as you work to reduce your sticking to the dough.
I tend to think of sourdoughs as one long bulk rise with a lot of interruptions. If you have the chance to just let the dough sit on the countertop during the whole process then do so. Retard later after a few of these loaves, once you get the basics down to understand what is going on inside the dough. Let the dough teach you. Take notes.
Mix up the dough in a bowl with a slightly firmer consistency as your favourite yeasted dough. Knead it and shape it into a nice ball on the counter top. Cover it with something so you can see the dough, have plenty of room and watch it as you take notes on shape density, temps., aroma, and even a small taste. Take a picture. These are all good ways to check on how the dough is progressing.
When the shape slumps and starts to spread out too much (sometime in the next 3 hours) carefully flip the dough over and fold it several times to restore gluten tension. Flip the dough back over, tuck under the corners and shape into a round, cover. Repeat if you think it needs it. You can feel the dough gasses building inside the dough when you handle it and you can take in aromas (later some bubbles pop) as you stretch and fold the dough over itself. You will feel the tension building with each folding. The tension relaxes as it ferments between sets of folds. You may find the dough slumping sooner, speeding up between folds. Higher hydration dough require more folding than those with less water in them. Watch the dough. Respond to it.
When the time between reshaping the spreading dough gets down to about 50 minutes, or you think you want to bake the dough in the next hour, its time to get the oven hot. Bake the loaf before it doubles in volume, closer to 3/4 inflated. Compare photos. Since you shaped after every folding, it is easy to just slide the risen dough onto parchment or a baking pan, score and bake anytime you think it's ready. Find the point between ferment and over- ferment and bake before the dough gets too far along to hold its shape.
Wow! Thanks for the great tips! I think I might give this a try tomorrow. I do have a bench scraper, as I've been baking regular yeasted dough for years. This is just really my first serious foray into sourdough, as we've had so much time on our hands with the work from home orders lately.
I work on a granite countertop, so I'll find a simple recipe, and try this, with a glass bowl inverted over the dough so I can observe it when it starts to slump.