May 1, 2020 - 7:07pm
Hand Stone Milled Grain Loaf Issues...
Hi All,
I have read some of the other posts in this subset of the forum but they all seem slightly different to the issues i am experiencing.
So here is my write up:
Setup
- Shnitzer Country stone hand mill (size 0 setting - the finest it will go - its pretty fine!)
- 100% Biodynamic Demeter hard white wheat (minimum 12% protein)
Starter - Background
- My starter has been going for a good 3 weeks and seems healthy.
- I feed it once every 24-36 hours
- About 5-6 hours after I feed the starter it seems to be at 'max height'
Starter - Recipe
- 80g of hand milled grain (After I have done a very light sift to get some of the bran out)
- 80g of water (at 30 degrees celcius)
- 80g of previous starter
Bread Recipe
Ingredients
- 160g of above starter (I have tried to use this when it is at its max rise and I have also used this when it has receeded but still very bubbly)
- 400g of my hand ground grains (again, a gentle sift. I lose about 10% of the weight)
- 230g of water (at 30 degrees Celsius)
- 5g salt
Procedure
- Mix ingredients together
- pour onto bench and knead (i feel little 'bumps' in the dough i think this is the wheat germ?)
- I feel it 'grow' while im kneading (i think i get a window pane effect)
- Leave it to proof in a bowl covered with cling wrap for 3.5hours - 4 hours
- I get a bit of a rise here, but it is so hard to know if it is enough?
- Knock back the air and then leave it to proof in a banneton basket for 3 - 3.5 hours
- once again i get a bit of a rise here, but it is hard to know if it is enough
- Score the bread with a bakers blade
- Bake in a fan forced oven @ 210 Celsius for about 30-35mins.
- I put a baking dish at the bottom of the oven and pour in boiling water
Issues
- My bread doesnt seem to rise much in the oven
- It is fairly dense with not very large air pockets inside
- I dont know if it has risen much during the initial proof or the 2nd proof
- Some of my loaves havent seem to have cooked properly
Questions
- What can I do to get the loaf to rise more
- Am I supposed to let the bread cool before cutting?
- Do I have to remove the bran from my hand milled grain?
- Is there an optimal time to add my starter when I am making my dough?
Please provide me any other advice you think I may need :D
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Waaay too much starter, at 40%. Try 15%, for those ferment and proof times.
Freshly-milled whole wheat flour is going to take 78% to 90% hydration, lots more than white flour.
1. being freshly-milled whole grain, your starter is supercharged, so use less. You can't use a white flour recipe.
2. being freshly-milled whole grain, your dough ferments very fast. You can't use a white flour recipe.
3. It doesn't rise in the oven because it was over-proofed.
4. 100% whole grain doesn't rise all that much anyway, not like white/refined flour.
5. don't sift/sieve. It's all good stuff.
6. I can't tell what you mean by "not cooked properly" but a convection oven is problematic for bread. the forced air currents dry out and set the crust too soon. If you can't turn off fan, You need to bake in a covered vessel for first 15 to 20 min. Can use an inverted oven safe pot, or bowl over a baking stone, or use a dutch oven, or a covered casserole dish, or something like a thin metal Graniteware covered roaster.
7. Whole wheat does not bake like white flour and commercial dry yeast. Sourdough does not bake like commercial yeast. Not all the rules-of-thumb apply. First, don't "knock back the air"/deflate like you did with white flour dough and commercial yeast. Gently fold it, getting rid of only the larger air bubbles. Then shape into a round or batard to put in banneton. See Ken Forkish's or Peter Reinhart's or Trevor WIlson's youtube videos for suggested folding/shaping procedures.
8. Wait 12-20 hours after removing from oven before cutting open the bread. Seriously! Whole wheat sourdough improves like that!
9. Freshly-milled wheat makes the best bread, so you're on the road to very gourmet bread!
Bon chance.
Thanks iDave,
With respect to point number 6, when I cut the loaf open it was still a bit soggy inside but the outside had a good hard crisp on it. Any longer in the oven and it would have burnt.
I have just milled up some flour and I have taken your suggestion to reduce the starter down.
I have used 20% starter. Now I know you said to use 15%, but I am happy to do some trail and error to work down to your 15%.
Recipe:
As you can see, I believe in incremental changes. So.... I am only changing that one part of the recipe. I have done my light sift still.
I take what you say about the fan forced oven and I will instead aim to use it without fan forced and cook it at a higher temperature, 230 degrees celsius for the 30 - 35 minutes.
Bread is in the first resting stage (is this what is called the 'fermenting' stage?). I have taken a photo of it as I put it into the bowl to rest. I should mention that I leave it under my rangehood with the lights on, to make sure it has a bit of direct warmth. I am lead to believe that leaving it on the cold bench is not ideal.
Will post some pics tomorrow, covering all the stages post chopping open.
You've actually lowered the hydration there. 270/440 = 61%.
Jess gave you a good procedure. Here's another sample 100% whole wheat recipe, showing the need for high hydration: www.thefreshloaf.com/node/63644/today%E2%80%99s-red-fife-loaf
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Are you using a baking stone?
Do you have an oven safe pot or some kind of bowl you can put upside down over the dough to trap steam?
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Can you describe how your oven works? Are there heating elements at the top, or bottom, or back side, or what combination?
If the heating elements are only at the top or back, you need to use a lidded pot or somehow cover the dough to trap steam, and shield the dough from the direct radiant heat and from the air currents; it won't work otherwise.
If you don't cover the dough, then only bottom heating elements will work for baking a loaf of bread.
Sourdoughs with more than 50% WW is a tough nut to crack. You should do a search for the Approachable loaf. It is a great way to bake with whole wheat that uses sourdough with a yeast kicker.
Hi Rathpex,
I think you can solve your problems by:
Step one, hydrate/soak/autolyse: Combine just the flour and water alone for at least an hour, or overnight. (Whole wheat flour takes time to soak up the water and activate the gluten.) Once the flour has hydrated you will find the texture is completely different: it will be soft and cohesive and beginning to be elastic.
Step two, Mix and Develop Gluten: spread your nice soft elastic dough out flat on the counter. Spread your starter out on the dough. Fold it over once and sprinkle your salt on. Fold it again. Knead it for about 5 minutes until the autolyse, starter, and salt are all mixed together and the dough is supple, cohesive, and elastic. It will start out kind of weird and shreddy and gritty, and then become lovely. If it is tight and springy and difficult to knead, splash a little water onto it every few minutes as you knead, until it is a bit softer and more pliable. If you cut a good-sized chunk of the dough off with scissors or a knife, you can gently stretch it out to show windowpane.
Step three bulk proof: Gently round the dough and place it in a lightly oiled bowl with a cover for however long it takes to be ripe. It will be expanded, tender, and show the outline of a bubble or two at the surface. It might take about 2 or 4 hours or longer depending on the strength of your starter and the temperature of your prooving room.
Step four, develop structure with letter folding: Flour the dough top lightly, flour the counter lightly, and flour your hands lightly. Turn the bowl upside down to release the dough, top down. Slip first one hand and then the other under the dough, palms down. Gently stretch the dough out, like a pizza, without puncturing or tearing it. Lay it down and stretch the edges out into a rectangle. Fold it in thirds from side to side, brushing off excess flour, and again in thirds top to bottom. Put it back in the bowl, seam side down, for 1/2 hour, then repeat the letter fold, and again into the bowl for another 1/2 hour.
Step five, Shaping and Final Proof: Turn the dough out once again, and gently press out any large bubbles. Bring the sides together to the center, then roll up the dough snugly. Let it sit seam-side down on the counter for a few minutes to seal the seam. Place seam-side up in your floured banneton for about 1/2 hour until visibly expanded and starting to get tender, but not yet hugely puffy and quivery.
Step 6, Bake: Place inside a greased, floured, lidded pot of some kind, and put it into the oven. (You must use a lid for baking bread if you have a fan oven, otherwise the fan dries the crust and prevents it from rising.) After the first 20 minutes you can remove the lid and let the bread finish baking. Use a meat thermometer to measure the internal temperature of the bread: it is done when it reaches about 99 degrees Celsius.
Step 7, cool and eat: Allow your bread to cool inside the pot for 10 minutes to release itself, then remove and let it cool entirely before cutting it open (it can be a tiny bit warm but that's all.) When it is hot it is still finishing cooking, and cutting it spoils the crumb and makes it dry out.
I hope this helps! Enjoy your bread!
Very Detailed, greatly appreciated - thank you.
As I was off grinding and kneading you were probably typing this out. I have gone with the first suggestion of lowering my starter.
My oven does have a non fan forced setting, if I use that setting is it okay not to put it in a lidded vessel?
I will post photos of the above outcome and then I will give this method a shot.
If you turn the fan off and add steam to the oven it will help, but in a home oven (professional ones have steam injection) you will always get best results from using something with a lid. Good luck and keep us posted how things go!
P.S. for whole wheat the very most important tip I can give you is to autolyse for an hour (or overnight.) It really makes the difference from having weird, difficult dough to having nice well-behaved dough.
If you want to make it a bit easier, mix the flour, cold water, and starter (no salt) and chuck it immediately in the fridge overnight to hydrate without fermenting. In the morning, add the salt and knead it to warm it up, mix the salt in, and develop the gluten. It is easier to knead in the salt alone than kneading in the salt and starter at the same time.
"P.S. for whole wheat the very most important tip I can give you is to autolyse for an hour (or overnight.) It really makes the difference from having weird, difficult dough to having nice well-behaved dough."
Yeah unfortunately I was too late for this bake. I suppose I could grindup more grain after baking the loaf tonight... /cry. Hand grinding that much flour is quite a work out.
I really dont like putting my starter/dough into the fridge. My results have always been very poor when i have done this. I even lost a starter after refridgerating it for about a week....
Can I leave the flour and water mix to Autolyse on the bench over night? I'm in Melbourne, Australia and it is getting to about 14 degrees or so. If I was to do it tonight It would probably go onto the bench about 10pm with your step 2 happening ~9am tomorrow. So that is close to 12 hours
The point of the autolyse step is to allow the flour to hydrate:
You want to either mix the flour and water only, or if you add the starter to the mix you want to refrigerate it to keep the starter in check until after the dough is hydrated and after you're going to be there to keep an eye on it. (Side note, I promise refrigeration doesn't harm your starter inside your bread dough, it just causes it to get sleepy and slow down, like hibernation. And it also won't harm your autolyse mix to be in the fridge, in fact that's a good idea if it's going to sit longer than 12 hours.)
Maybe you left your starter too long in the fridge before without taking it out and feeding it (it does need to eat, just less).
Anyhow, the next time you mill flour, just either mix with water only and let it sit for 1 to 12 hours in or out of the fridge, or mix it with water and starter both and let it sit for 1 to 12 hours in the fridge.
Then add the salt (and starter if you didn't add it before) and knead for about 5 minutes to get it all combined and to develop the gluten. I promise, after your flour is properly hydrated it will make a world of difference to the way the dough feels and develops.
I find that I really get the best results if I am disciplined about stopping mixing as soon as all the flour is wet. If I keep going and knead the dough before it has a chance to autolyse, the gluten develops in a weird stringy way and the dough is never as pleasing as when I just let it sit for a while.