Overproof or underproof sourdough bread ?
Hey everybody !
I decided to launch myself into the sourdough adventure about 2 months ago with creating a starter with which I've made about 5 loaf in total since then. The 1st was a disaster but the rest were descent although I don't get any oven spring.
This is the last bread I made last weekend :
(higher resolution picture here : https://imgur.com/a/RJY2vVa)
The taste and the texture are very good, not too sour but just what I am use to from a bakery, the crust also seems regular all around which is nice.
Now about my flow, this loaf was :
- 540g all purpose white flour
- 60g whole wheat flour
- 430g water
- 200g starter
- 12g salt
This is a high hydrated dough (~71%).
- First thing is that I prep my starter ahead and wait until it double in size (this can take between 3 to 4h usually, whole wheat starter).
- During that period, I am mixing the flour and water to make about a 3hour autolyse so I can get some nice stretch with that wet dough later on (it does make a difference imo, I am passing the windowpane test with that)
- Once that autolyse and starter rise done, I am mixing everything and leave it for about 30min
- Then adding the salt and usually I keep 25g of water from the 430g just to mix the salt properly to the dough, then wait about another 30min
- Now I am doing my fermentation and set of fold, I usually ferment for around 4h in total with folding every 30min. This time I did two fold at 30min interval and 2 other at 1hour interval (4 fold in total). I am doing the fermentation in a large baking tray in the oven with the light on (with plastic wrap on top).
- Once the fold are done I start to shape my dough with another fold on the counter top (envelop type of fold) and leave it to rest for 30min on the bench.
- Finally I am shaping it into a ball, I still have to get more experience on that but I manage to make a rough ball and I put it in my floured banneton and straigh to the fridge overnight.
- The next morning (usually early around 6 or 7) I take the dough out around 2h before baking it
- Then baking it in a very hot dutch oven at 220 degrees with lid on for 25min, then 25min without the lid.
Hopefully some people can help me figure this out, I was considering reducing the fermentation time to 3h to see if it would make any difference, but I am open to any suggestion :)
All my loaf where about this flat, it seems that they don't hold their shape while being put in the dutch oven..
Thanks for the help !
Snazsh, I am not all that good at interpreting photos, and others may help concerning the distribution of the holes, but in my experience, underproofed loaves retain their shape and get some oven spring, though not as much as when they are properly proofed. Over proofed ones loose their shape and decrease in volume as they bake. Since you say it is flattening out, I suggest you cut back a bit on the fermentation.
Here is an analogy that is probably completely wrong, but imagine that as you start the final proof , a call goes out inside the loaf to say hey everyone lets get together and lift this loaf up. It takes some time to get the word out, and the things that are doing the lifting can only stand in place for a certain amount of time, and when that time is up they go lie down. When it is very underproofed, only a very small percent of the things are ready to lift , so it doesn't go up very high. When it is just right, nearly everyone that is in the loaf is involved in lifting. When it is overproofed, while everyone got the call, and came, they waited around so long to get the signal, they got tired of standing in place so long and couldn't do any lifting when the time came, and instead went to lie down, so the loaf collapses.
Thank you for the explanation, it seems that we reach the same conclusion to cut down a bit the fermentation time, I will try 3 hours to see :)
someone posted a similar topic and I also replied there.
You did not mention at which temperature you bulk. I have been bulking for around 5-5h30 at rather high temperatures (26C-28C or 79F-82F), since this is my current room temperature. From the picture, it seems that parts of the dough could use a bit more fermentation, but it is hard to say for sure. Here is a picture of recent loaf, from Apr. 25th:
74miolo.jpeg
This loaf had 75% hydration and bulked for a total of 5h before going to the fridge for 19h30 before baking.
I performed a total of 4 folds during the bulk.
It was one of my best crumbs recently, but in the past I was getting much more open ones, which also made me wonder if 5h30 is too long a time for my temperature conditions.
This is quite the question because I do not know what is the temperature in the oven with the light on. I should invest into a thermometer I guess.
Your bread looks amazing by the way, it has nice ears ! So you cut down your bulk by 30min ?
'autotopsy' of loaves at various stages...and what signs to look for...
https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/troubleshoot-bad-bread-messed-up-loaf.html
and
http://www.mydailysourdoughbread.com/recognize-3-early-warning-signs-underproofed-bread/
I am not an expert but I seem to remember that big holes right next the crust are an indication of underfermentation as well as the pale colour of the crust and the overall profile of the bread.
You describe all the right steps and I would just check where potential lack of fermentation could arise?
1. Starter - float test is not the be all but helps...your starter is fairly young from what I can tell....how often do you feed it?
2. Bulk Fermentation - what signs of fermentation do you see during bulk? How much rise did you get during bulk? Do you see bubbles and that domed look around the edges? Do you check temperature when you bulk?
3. Final proof - and temp in fridge... if your fridge is very cold it can help to let the finally shaped loaves rest for 30 min or so before going in the fridge.....
Keep going and I baked many underproofed and overproofed loaves...I think we all did and is part of learning...... Kat
Thank you for the links, I will check it out !
1. I always do the floating test and it always float quite nicely, right now my starter is in the fridge about 4 to 5 days a week, I take it out a day before when I will make the dough. I take it out on Thursday and feed it in the afternoon/evening, then I usually start to make the dough on Friday. I refresh it again on Friday around lunch time and wait for it to double (I proof it in my oven with light on too), about 3 to 4 hour does the trick
2. I have to be honest I never check the temperature when I bulk... My only sign of fermentation is mainly bubbles in the dough. Now that I think about it, when I fold the dough I probably de-gas it at the same time by accident. I am probably handling the dough too much at that time :thinking: I usually see a few bubbles that domed on top and the edges yes.
3. Final proof, again no check of temp in the fridge... I can try to have the dough rest 30min outside before the fridge too.
I will try 3hours bulk the same way and see how it goes and post result here :)
is an advice that you see probably again and again...and I can only testify that from my own learning...
It also is useful to be aware of what the dough temp is when you mix...on a cold day use warmer water and vice versa...Maurizio on the Perfect Loaf writes nicely in his blog about dough temp...
Bulking at 26C will be faster than at 21C...and so on...also depends on the amount of leaven that you have used.
There are many examples of dough dumps but here is one of mine and you can see the bubbles and that domed look
People say aim for a 30-50% rise...in bulk...plus signs of fermentation...By the sounds of what you are describing you are ok with that....
I have a marker for start of bulk and also a translucent container so that I can see the bubbles by the side and underneath..
Do you see signs of fermentation in pre-shape?
You are right that if you let it go too far then the proofier the dough the more you can degas it too.... all a balance...
and then if the timing works with the shaping and correct final proof and kind bread gods I get a nice crumb... Happy Baking and I hope you find this helpful....
Kat
The links are interesting. The second one I did not find very helpul, so I'll comment more about the first link.
While it is helpful, we usually do not cut our loaves the way it is depicted in the explanation. It would have been much better had he cut the loaf both ways and displayed them both.
Knowing the temperature helps a lot. If you do not have a thermometer, I'd recommend buying one.
The problem with these diagnoses is that the difference, most of the time, is subtle and it is hard to tell where the problem is. Some of the tests are not even possible at times, as the 'poke test' if you retard your proofing in the refrigerator and bake straight from the cold.
I have also seen comparisons with several loaves baked at different time intervals and the difference was hard to tell.
I do think, though, that it is important to time your bulk. If you are erring not by much, it is very hard to 'read your dough'. We might be talking about a difference of 30' in bulk time. How easy is it to tell that from the look and feel of the dough? I keep notes of both times and temperatures of all my bakes.
Anyways, the loaf is not that bad, I must say. But I'd bet you should increase your bulking time, not decrease it.
and a thermometer is really useful to keep track and also to compare bake to bake...
I recommend to keep and eye on original dough temp and then throughout bulk fermentation.
I also keep an eye on time as it is a nice guideline...but if in question I judge the dough not the clock but we all have our own ways to do things...
Agree also to increase bulk not decrease it....Kat
p.s. I saw this the other day on IG from an amazing baker and he does also classes and his tip to help to judge the end of bulk...tried this today and worked..https://www.instagram.com/p/BQmwc3oDaTy/
Just cut a piece of dough from the bulk and see whether it floats...
I have bulked today's loaf for 4h. Let's see if that helps. It is a rather different loaf (tried one with 30% spelt, 20% semi-integral by Le 5 Stagioni, 10% whole wheat and 40% white bread flour), so I'm not sure what to expect.
Notacrumbleft's loaf is by far superior to mine, though. Kudos!
and respect to try a loaf with 30% spelt...that is not easy with that flour..
Mine don't turn out like that all the time and yours is a beautiful lacy loaf! Happy Baking... Kat
p.s. have you used Caputo Semola Rimacinata...I love that flour when I can get my hands on it here in UK...I don't know Le 5 Stagioni and must investigate..
No, I have never used any Semola flour. It is not easy to find strong flours in Brazil. There are only 3 places you can buy Le 5 Stagioni in Rio and they sell for USD 3,55 a kilo. The spelt flour I managed to buy from São Paulo (no store in Rio sells it. They don't even know what it is) cost me USD 10 a kilo. I have never seen Caputo flour being sold here in Rio. Only once, in a tiny market on a neighboring town. What we end up having to do is buy in bulk from the representative of the mill. Then it cost about half the price.
Le 5 Stagioni is a great flour. I'd look for their Superiore, a 00 flour.
I've recently managed to buy a Brazilian flour that is suitable to making bread. I have tried 75% hydration and it was ok. But it is not usually sold here either (the good mills are in the Paraná state, about 870 km South from Rio). By chance someone mentioned about it to the owner of a small shop where he lives and the owner decided to order the flour from the mill. I have so far gone to the place (it is a 20' bike ride from my place) twice and got 3 kilos each time.
As you see, life in the 3rd world is not as easy as in the upper echelons. But I keep on trucking.
Happy baking to you too!
and another lesson I learnt the hard way.....I totally appreciate what you say about flour and makes even a better baker for achieving 'magic' with the flour at hand...There are bakers from Brazil around on TFL...and have you seen Solano's posts?
This is why I also was intrigued with the bakes from @mothersoven on IG. He uses 11.5% flour to achieve his bakes...
So it does not have to be always high protein flour like in the US and it is all about knowing the flour and how to adjust the water to get the best out of it...well, I am still learning so much myself and what do I know????
Snazsh, I hope the next bake goes well...and fingers crossed... Kat
Just did a new dough, it's currently in the fridge for overnight proofing.
Here are the temp that I manage to get :
After mixing before autolyse : 26.8
After 3h autolyse and mixed with salt : 23.6
Oven temp 1 : 24.5
1st fold dough temp : 25.5
Oven temp 2 : 27
2nd fold dough temp : 26.2
Oven temp 3 : forgot to take the temp
3rd fold dough temp : 26.9
Dough resting after bulk (30min after the last fold) : 26.2
Dough shaped and going to fridge : 25
Fridge temp: 8 or 7
Photo before starting the bulk :
Photo after the 1st fold :
Photo just before the 2nd fold :
I didn't take a photo of the 3rd fold but here is a photo after shaping in the banneton :
Shaping felt better, it seems that it was holding it's shape more than my previous dough.
Update : I took the dough out of the fridge and bake it 1 hour after instead of 1.30h/2h
The dough looks misshape yes, some part of it might be because I used more baking paper than I usually do. I usually cut a round shape just so it's under the bread. This time I didn't bother and used a rectangle, I think that might have caused some issue with the top side.
But it can also be due to the small "accident" that happen when I took it out of the banneton, it was very sticky. I did put flour in it, but the dough is so wet that everything was absorbed (it's crazy)
As you can see on the photo above, it's lighter and very weird shape.
Overall I am happy because it did rise more than my previous loaf, I even got a tiny tiny oven spring ear.
I am waiting a bit to cool down before cutting, will update.
and I think this will help you a lot to decide where to make changes as you compare bake to bake...
Can't wait to see the crumb....
One quick observation...the temp in your fridge is on the higher side and this can cause your dough to ferment more thank you think and without realizing overproof the dough.in the fridge...especially if you have let the dough bulk longer and sit in basket at room temp before you put it in the fridge... all a balance...
As a beginner I overproofed many loaves in my warmer fridge at 8C without even realizing that...So keep an eye on how much the dough has grown in fridge and how does the dough look and feel when it comes out...
Judging from your photo it looks ok and you did not have any spreading which can be a sign of overproofing...
I thought I mention it as many bakeries retard at 5C and many home bakers have a cold fridge at 4C or 3C and with a bit of adjusting each bake you can find the perfect spot for your bulk, bench rest time and letting it rest before going into fridge. Fingers crossed.... Kat
That's why I cut the bulk by 1 hours and got this result, it is looking slightly better compared to the previous one so that mean I was indeen overproofing. As you said now I have to find the balance, next time I will bake it straight out from the fridge so it doesn't have time to proof any longer at room temp.
Here are the crumb, it was very good, I am happy with the taste :
and I shall eat my words...don't trust anything I say... well, I think taking temp to see how consistent you are and then tweak the whole process will hopefully be useful and watch that fridge...I remember this period with a lot of frustration as blissfully unaware...... this is a good looking crumb...happy eating.. Kat
That looks beautiful and airy and chewy and delicious!