Do Nothing Bread by Yohan Ferrant
Formula:
- Flour 100% (60% whole-wheat, 40% bread flour)
- Water 90%
- Salt 2%
- Starter 1-2% (after re-watching the video he actually used 0.5% so what the actual formula is another discussion)
Recipe:
- Turkey Red flour 270g
- Bread flour 180g
- Water 405g
- Salt 9g
- Starter 4-5g
- + seed mix (sunflower, flax, pumpkin and sesame)
Method:
- Mix flour and salt *
- Disperse starter into water.
- Add the water to the flour and combine.
- Bulk ferment for 24 hours [although I should point out that many find 24 hours too much and mine was ready within 16 hours even using just 1%].
- The recipe calls for one set of stretch and folds around half way through but I did a couple more to ensure the seeds are dispersed well.
- Shape and final proof for 1 hour or so - the shaping doesn't call for a pre-shape and nor does it require the same level of "perfection" as one usually finds but rather a quick "no fuss" shaping. However I did the usual with a pre and final shape.
- Bake.
This is the recipe that Teresa Greenway has based her San Francisco style bread on. The results are very nice indeed. Very flavoursome with a pronounced tang but the Turkey Red and seeds bring other flavours to the final loaf which compliment each other. Crumb shot to follow.
* Please note that while I did sit through the videos sometime ago the masterclass is quite a lot of talking without any "walking through" the recipe. For this bake I went from memory and from Teresa's video on the recipe where she starts after the bulk ferment with some explanation as a follow on from Yohan's class. My friend has just pointed out there is an autolyse which I assume is with the starter and minus the salt. I'm assuming the 1% starter would be part of the autolyse as it'll be difficult to distribute afterwards.
Abe, I need the temperature at which the dough bulk ferments for 24 hours to make sense of this.
Unless this is a very cool or cold ferment! 60% whole wheat blows my mind!
Where the seeds added dry? I really like the idea of adding seeds. I am very interested in this.
Dan
But I was aiming for normal room temperature which is around 21°C. Through the day it might have been a tad warmer but through the night it was definitely colder so that would have been the average. Whether that's the recipe temp I'm not sure. However many have found they can't get the full 24 hours even with just 1% starter.
If you type "Yohan Ferrant Do Nothing Bread" into google you'll find the recipe and Teresa Greenway's video of the process comes up when she attended one of his master classes.
Here is a link to the bread. https://youtu.be/Wwu3KgbhTsU
Teresa shows 65F. That makes more sense to me.
Dan
so I watch the dough for all my breads but I'd say through the night that would have been very close, perhaps a bit less, but until I get a proofer it's trial and error.
I have this bread in the works. Now only 24 hours to wait. I also added a seed mix and wet sprouted grains.
I'd love o hear what you think of it and look forward to results. It's already 90% hydration and you've added wet sprouted grains so watch out for that. Seeds might soak something up though. Keep an eye on it come morning as I, and many others, have never been able to do the full 24 hours. Unless you have means to strictly control the temps.
I am preparng the retarder as I write this. I am shooting for 65F. The sprouts where not extremely wet, but I will have to watch for that.
Experience with extended warm fermentation leads me to believe that the warmth of the dough has a tremendous affect on it’s strength. For example - take an 80% dough and consider how it might handle at 80F (dough temp) and then how the same dough (fermented the same amount of time) might handle @ 42F.
I have been contemplating a study of how temperature affects dough strength. The thought came about when I decided to push a dough by proofing at 80F. I realized then that fermentation duration needs to take into account the Final dough temperature. So if I speed up a dough with warmer temps, I need to expect a more slack dough when it comes time to handle. I have learned to compensate by refrigerating (or short stint in freezer), either before shaping and/or before turning out dough to score.
For the endless thinker who bakes bread, the brain gets little rest...
Dan
Is surprisingly well behaved for 90% hydration. When things are sped up then so does the gluten formation need to follow suit and that's where kneading/folds come into play. This one uses time. If the gluten formation is done well then the dough becomes more manageable. I've had more issues with 80% hydration dough than this 90% hydration and I now realise that's more to do with the development of the gluten. this recipe seems to work very well when it comes to that.
I bet the 60% whole wheat makes a huge difference in the handling characteristics. In my case, it is the complete grain (100% extraction).
My dough mixed well and doesn’t appear too slack.
I refrigerated my seeds mix and flours and the dough just hit the retarder at 43F. It will takes a while to lose the chill. Yohan mentioned that it is possible to ferment longer than 24 hr. I didn’t hear him say what temp he fermented at. But I would be willing to bet that Teresa (at 65F) is following him closely.
Abe, I have started a practice of adding seeds dry to the flour. They are incorporated during the initial hydration. For large seeds, like sunflower, I ground them a little with a mortar and pestle. I believe large chunks of ingredients hinder the gluten network. Flax are also ground. I don’t mix chia dry, though.
I just stumbled across a post in the last day or so from Mini, who says not to worry about chia seeds: just add 'em dry to the flour and add 4x their weight in water to the dough water. She says the dough firms up as the chia drinks up all that water.
I'm too chicken to try right now, so why don't you blaze another path for us? :-D
Carole
:)
So, I'm trying to work up the courage to do that in my 1:2:3 (or maybe 1:3:4?) bake this weekend. Just add the dry, untoasted seeds to the flour, add 3x their weight to the dough water and autolyse everybody at the same time?
I'm so nervous :-o
Thanks, Mini.
Carole
go for it! You can always add more water with wet hands after the autolyse, every time you handle the dough. How much dry chia did you want to add? They go in dry so much easier than when they've turned to squishy gel.
See you in a bit, thanks!
Hi Abe, All
Sadly the videos do not seem to give any firm timings, let alone show the whole process from beginning to end. But some things do appear in Ferrant's presentation and answers to questions from the audience.
What is clear is that the videos were shot in Belgium one September. So late Summer / Early Autumn and I guess that room temperatures would be around 24°C / 75°F falling perhaps to a low of 20°C / 71°F overnight. This may be significant to the timing of the bulk ferment.
Ferrant does say the he first autolysed the flour because he used T65 flour (I think he indicated that its protein level was 11.5%), and when asked about adding the levain / starter to the autolyse he said that this would be called fermentolyse and might be helpful if using weak flour.
As for timing of the bulk ferment, at room temperature, he says that the start was at 6pm the previous evening but his maths was not up to calculating hours elapsed. I think that the presentation was being done in the afternoon, perhaps quite late, say around 4pm. So my guess is that it was more than 20 hours but not 24. He also says that looking at his dough (very soft and billowy looking) it could happily be left for another 6 - 7 hours. So 24 hours plus or minus seems about right for him.
So why do the very experienced bakers on this forum believe that it is too long or maybe the temperature they are currently experiencing may be too warm? Is the answer in the flour, or is Ferrant simply willing to allow the bulk ferment to continue beyond the point at which most here would be comfortable?
Sadly the videos do not show the baked loaves so we cannot see the outcome.
I have yet to attempt this formula and method, fearing that 90% hydration would be a handling problem for me but Ferrant repeatedly says that we should keep handling to a minimum, just one fold during the bulk ferment. So I will have to put it on my list of future bakes. This should score highly for both taste and nutritional value.
Alan
When I hear a bulk ferment that runs for 24 hours or more at room temperature, I fear the dough will degrade to a soupy slop. For room temp I think 74-76F, but I’m sure others think warmer or cooler. Did you see Teresa Greenway’s video? She indicated ~65F.
About the very longest I can ferment a strong flour for 16 (maybe 17) hours at a dough temp of 77-78F. And when this bread is handled after such a long ferment it is extremely weak, very near degradation.
I did bake his bread and at a temperature of 66-67F the dough fermented very well for 24 hours. I could have gone like longer. Since I have a retarder, the dough temp will remain constant.
The dough handled well @ 90% hydration because of the whole grain and also (I think) the seeds.
Dan
Hi Dan,
Thanks for this. I know that Abe too follows Teresa's version normally. 65°F / 18°C is a level that we here in UK would see in parts of the year overnight but otherwise I guess a retarder would be required to achieve such a constant temperature.
I still wrestle with what the Ferrant videos show (and they are shot and edited by Teresa) and what bakers whom I respect say. Why would the videos be so misleading? Ferrant (and Teresa) must have known that the videos would be seen all over the world with varying room temperatures, so why indicate 24 hours at room temp if the dough had been in a retarder? I feel certain that Abe's kitchen in the past week would have been cooler than the lab in Belgium where Ferrant gave the presentation.
The video certainly gave me some confidence in the way the dough handled after the bulk ferment but then I guess Ferrant has had plenty of practice!
Alan
Alan, I’m sure you could successfully ferment this bread or anyother without a constant temperature. In an environment where the temp fluctuated but the mean temp was on the cool side without gross fluctuations this dough would do well. Being able to maintain a constant cool or warm temp is a luxury, but a very nice one to have.
You could put ice packs in a cooler to retard a dough.
I’ve said it before and will continue to say it some more :-D. There is nothing more important in bread baking than temperature. A prominent baker (don’t remember who) says to consider temperature as an ingredient.
Dan
Dan, Would that have been Ken Forkish in FWSY?
Alan
I can’t say for sure, but he is in the running :-)
Maurizio always says to consider temperature as an ingredient. He always emphasizes dough temp. That’s who I think you are thinking about.
was Teresa's dough temperature -- not ambient temperature, no?
I agree with you Alan, there's something a bit frustrating at not having a video to document the process from start to finish -- let's just take it on faith -- and on the experience of our experts Dan and Abe -- that all will be well.
Happy baking.
Carole
Looks like a keeper -- could even work for a midweek bake, yes?
How's the crumb?
Good work!
Carole
It is a keeper and if I could regulate the temperature more accurately then it'd be a good midweek bake however at 16 hours for the bulk ferment it'll always be ready in the middle of the night or day if I can only work on it in the morning or evening.
But something along these lines would be a good midweek bake with some tweaking.
Crumb is nice and it'll be up soon.
How was your bake this weekend?
I forget that not everyone can just decide to work from home whenever the spirit moves ☺
What would happen if you stuck the bulk in the fridge overnight, after mixing, and then left it at room temperature the next day while you're at work? Is that completely off the wall?
Actually that sounds like an option to me and a good one at that! Something to definitely consider.
Thank you Carole.
That makes me happy ?.
Let us know if you do try it, could be sterling!
do nothing 16 hour way! That make it a do a little bit of something bread but it is better-) I say take the temperature down to 60 F, go for 24 hours on the BF and then do the final proof at 92 F for a really tasty 60% whole grain SD bread!
So where is the crumb shot!
I would love to be able to make this into a 24 hour bread so my aim is to find somewhere that is a constant 60°C. Thanks for the advice too about final proofing at 92°F. Someday I'm going to get a proofer.
I do have a crumb shot on my tablet at home but haven't loaded it up yet. I'll do that later after work. It has a nice crumb but a tad over proofed I think. Seeds are well distributed and it toasts up really well. The long ferment, Turkey Red flour with seeds is a wonderful combo.
About the proofer... If I can purchase it in the UK at the same price as in the US then I'd have bought one already. However the very same proofer, which is available here, is the same price but in £ which makes it more expensive. They don't take the exchange rate into account.
Abe, I proofed my dough @ 65-66F and it is moving very slow. I went with exactly 1% starter. My starter was 62.5% hydration. Here is where I think I mat have slowed done the ferment. My seeds were warm from toasting when I added them to the flour. I then put the flour in the freezer to chill. It stayed too long anf the flour temo once removed was about 40F. I mixed the dough and it was pretty cool, way below my target of 65F. This may have stunted the levain’s progress initially. I have the idea that the levain should be allowed to start fermuenting before reducing the temp too much. I know for a fact that it takes a while to cool a dough that is store in a refrigerator to 38-39F. My data charts tell me about 4-5 hours. I think during this time the levain is more active and getting a jump start. At least this is my present thought until I learn differently.
For proofing, have you considered a digital temperature controller hooked to a small light bulb? It could be placed in an oven or cooler or even a cardboard box. I think you can maintain some accurate warmth at a small price using this method.
Keep making notes and report back. I used a starter that was fed like so...
This was left to fully mature and was refrigerated for about a day before using.
My starter seemed to move very fast from the word "go". I noticed after a 2-3 hours clear signs of fermentation and some visible bubbles forming.
Stick with it Dan. See it through to the end however long it takes then we'll compare notes. Please see my additional notes above.
I shaped the dough and the oven is preheating. I think this will work out.
Did you see where I edited the post above? It gives an idea for an inexpensive proofer. If you buy a more intricate digital temp controller it could also be used for a retarder. I have a Johson controller and it is hooked up to a small freezer. It works perfectly and is dead on accurate. It could also be used on a refrigerator. As a matter of fact, you could use a refrigerator or freezer for both a proofer and a retarder.
I’ll post images of the bake once the bread is sliced.
Dan
Dab, do you foresee any problems with proofing at 92F and then chilling in the freezer for 20 minutes or so before scoring and baking a dough? I believe the chilled dough stands taller and I know the scoring is easier.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Danny
After rewatching Teresa’s video, my BF looked similar to her’s. I sliced it a little early because I wanted to give some to a friend.
The bread taste pretty good. The texture, chew, along with the crunchiness of the seeds is very good. But, IMO, the king of seeded breads is Jeffrey Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain.
Dan
Have you had a chance to taste it yet? Apparently this is one of the healthiest ways to make bread. Do you think this is something that you'd do often?
Mine was too quick and over proofed somewhat but that is down to temps I think. My dough certainly looked more fermented within 16 hours than Teresa's after 24 hours.
Yea, the ability to accurately control the temperature gave me an unfair advantage. I think the extra warmth speed up your ferment.
This is a very nice bread that requires so little work. If you look at the crust you see that I get better ears without scoring :-D
We are strongly considering Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain for our next Community Bake. We may wait until January since the holidays are coming up.
Dan
That looks perfect!
I watched Teresa's video as well as Yohan's. What got me was the loose shaping! No preshape, no tension, just flop the dough over itself and plop it into a basket! Wow.
I'm psyched, this will be moving up towards the top of the list.
Enjoy it! You guys inspire me ?
Carole
Carole, my dough was much easier to shape than Yohan or Teresa. I imagine the dry seeds had asomething to do with it. I’m not sure what temp Yohan fermented at but it looks like Teresa stayed around 65F. I was at 66-67F but the dough started out very could, around 38F.
My dough had a stretch and fold @ 5 hours and I actually laminated it after the 24 hour bulk fermented. And I put it in the freezer 20 minutes before baking to help the dough make the transition from banneton to oven. I have been using this technique lately and I like the results.
Dan
and you did nothing!
How much seed did you wind up using?
Carole
Should be 1% starter Carole.
Dan can control the temps to get the 24 hours bulk ferment.
EDIT: Oops, I thought you meant "starter" when you said "seed" Carole.
I saw the 1% starter, but you're right, perhaps I should've written 'what was the weight of the seeds'. Longer, but certainly clearer. ?
Thanks for keeping me on my toes!
5% sunflower, 5% millet, 5% hemp, 3% poppy, & 5 moist wheat sprouts.
As I reviewed the crumb shot, I remembered that the dough went through a complete lamination process for the preshape. The gluten was no where near as strong and supple as Kristin’s with Full Proof Baking. I was also surprised that despite the lack of rise during the BF, and after the lamination, that a 1-1.5 hr proof produced a nice light crumb.
Live and learn...
Danny
You did a pre-shape? By lamination do you mean you folded the dough for a pre-shape?
My bulk ferment rose a lot and the gluten was surprisingly well developed and held it's shape better then I expected for a well fermented highly hydrated dough.
Perhaps to experience the same as you i'll need to repeat the recipe and ferment the dough at a lower temperature.
Yes, I preshaped and shaped. The cool ferment makes a huge difference.
For lamination, the dough was moderately stretched outward on all sides and then had 2) 3 way folds from the top and side. Exactly like the video linked in the post above. That was the preshape. The shape was much less drastic.
Even with warmer doughs, cooling them before handling is an effective way to make them more manageable. And I don’t find any ill effects of doing so.
I think temperature is a bakers greatest asset...
I'm gobsmacked (am I using that correctly?) at just how much doing nothing can accomplish (too bad the rest of life isn't like that).
Thank you for turning us on to this one!
Carole
Thank you Carole. Hope you try this soon.
Carole, I couldn't agree more with your philosophy. do less and get great results. works for me!
I was just thinking about making a bread and popping it in the fridge like Carole recommended and then take it out to BF or just doing the 24 hour BF and hope for the best. The problem would be that I wouldn't be around to perform any stretch and folds. So I'm debating when to start this. Now it's late and I think too late for me to even think about beginning, although my starter is ready. Oh well, pop it in the fridge and think about this recipe later. Looks delicious Abe.
performed through the bulk ferment. Anytime that suits you best really. I aim for about half way through but whatever suits one best really. Time and hydration develops the gluten for this bread.
Thank you Sharon and hope you try it.
Hi Sharon,
Just out of curiosity, I went online to see If other bakers had experimented with this -- and found this. The third comment down is interesting.
This is definitely on the to-bake list, I'm just not sure when. But when I do get around to it, it might be fun, if the dough permits, to divide it and do one with practically no shaping as lerror the videos, and the other with a preshape and shape as our aces have done?.
What have you decided?
Carole
Carole, I might actually have a go at this on the weekend. I mean I will have to look at the videos and make certain I have my amounts/%’s correct, but what the heck, could turn out to be a winner! Just deciding what flours I want to use for this.
It's been a while since I've seen the master class video but I do remember Yohan saying that hydration may be altered but expect different ferment times. Remember that the gluten formation uses time and hydration so the lower the hydration the more time it needs for full gluten development and the starter works slower too.
I did 2% salt but some comments on other websites used 1.8% salt so i'll have to re-watch the video for exact %.
Kept the temperature cool and as close to 65°F as possible. Used starter that was refreshed on Sunday and has been in the fridge since. My method was a tad different. Autolysed the dough for 1 hour, at 80% hydration, after which I added the salt and starter plus the remaining water to bring the dough to 90% hydration.
I am pleased to say that this one looks more on target! My last dough was already showing signs of being too far along in the fermentation for a full 24 hour bulk ferment. This one looks like it is on schedule even though I made one mistake of adding 1.5% starter and not 0.5% starter as Yohan actually did in the video after it was recalculated (see the footnotes on the second video).
Was playing it by ear and last night thought i'll see what's happening by morning then make a decision if leaving it out at room temperature while I'm at work will be ok. This morning it looked like it should be fine. Since Yohan even said in the video he could have left it for longer then I think even at 1.5% starter at 24 hours will be ok.
I've turned the heating off an left the window open hoping the dough is now fermenting at close to 65°F.
My only issue is tonight I might not have enough time to bake it. Do you think I should shape and refrigerate or refrigerate and shape when ready to do so?
Looking forward to observing your journey. I’m probably late to reply, but if you refrigerate the BF it should be easier to handle the shaping.
The starter was introduced to the dough at 10:45pm last night. Currently I'm out at work and will only get back by 8:45pm tonight. So it's bulk fermenting at, hopefully, 65°F or close enough for at least 21 hours.
So if I can't see it all the way through to baking the loaf tonight I'm going to have to refrigerate it till Friday late afternoon. What I'm thinking is to give it one more fold when I get home and then refrigerating it at the 21 hour mark. Then proceeding on-to shaping and final proofing the next day.
I can only try!
for heir bread! I love this site?.
So, where you at?
shaped and baked.
Got 21 hours for the bulk ferment and baked it last night. From what I can tell without cutting into it it's a success. Dough smelled delicious and while baking the Turkey Red had a strong cinnamon smell to it.
The dough looked like it'd be impossible to handle after the bulk ferment but it was surprisingly well behaved. Mine was further along the ferment stage than in the video but Yohan explained he would have gone on the for longer.
I'm coming the conclusion the recipe isn't exact but the rules are as follows...
That is the recipe.
the crumb shot ??
Hi Abe,
I am looking forward to hearing how the bake went. I am thinking that I might try this using Teresa L Greenway's "Another Take" video as a guide.
Can you shed more light on the amount of starter to be used? I have seen a couple of sites with the two part Ferrant Masterclass videos in which he says he used 2%. Teresa in her video says 1%. You refer to footnotes to the second part of the masterclass video indicating that the real level was 0.5%. Neither of the versions of the videos that I have seen have any footnotes. I was proposing to follow Teresa at 1% but having read your comment I am not so sure!
To add to my confusion Teresa's book Extreme Fermentation, in which she has a formula used to experiment with the Do Nothing one, uses 4% (and a lower hydration).
Bake went very well thank you. However I still think the ferment went over. I'm inclined to think that 0.5% would be best. Whatever you choose always watch the dough. I'm also thinking that Teresa's SF would suit you better. The tang in this very long ferment is quite pronounced but Teresa's version (the 4% starter, lower hydration with 100% bread flour and 16 hours ferment) I think you'd appreciate more. It is also very flavoursome but the tang is a bit more mellow.
Thanks again Abe
Whatever temperature allows you to get that 24 hour fermentation! Mine was done in 16 hours then room temp was too warm.
IMO, every set of baking instructions should include temperature. But with sourdough the strength and activity of each Levain is a variable that remains unknowable from baker to baker. Those that use commercial yeast can assume more predictability.
Anyone still continues to perfect this do-nothing bread?
Just finished the first try today 2x1250gr; with 1%inoculation 87%hydrated ;
*30% wheat organic 30%wheat wholegrain 25% rye whole grain 15% buckwheat wholegrain 2%salt
*mixed all at once fermented almost constantly at 19-20°C for 21hours, with one stretch and fold after 9 hours just to feel the dough strength.. After 21 hours I checked it and as it turned into a very slushy dough so I opted for a quick bake. So following a shaping which was basically pouring the dough on to a baking paper resting in a 4qt bowl of the size of.my 5qt Dutch oven = meaning no shaping. Setting the oven at 250°C and 1,5 hours later baking the first one. To the second loaf I added curcuma. mixed with 150g of rye flour, last minute, and poured it on the baking paper in a bowl as well. The second one had to rest another hour+ longer waiting for the bake 2, 5hours making it almost the complete 24 hours from the initial mix up.
ElHierro, it’s been a while since I baked this bread. Like many others that attempted this bread, over fermentation is a serious concern. It is possible that Yohan had a super strong flour that allowed that much fermentation. If Inwas interested in perfecting this bread, I would search for Teresa Greenway’s take on the process.
Even without the tiny percentage of starter, the flour and water mixture will degrade the dough over time.
3 thoughts if you try this one again.
This bread will work for you, but it will require some experimentation, especially dealing with the fermentation temperature and duration of the BF.
Dan
Thanks for your answer, was interested to also see if there are any other forum-threads that cover this topic that I might have missed, if you know let me know.
Regarding your points, these have been clear to me since I started to test this one out. As in the winter time my home has no heating and I can maintain 16-18 C all day long it is an interesting method to elaborate on.
I also think that degradation of the dough can be managed by finalizing BF in cooler environment, or cutting it shrt the BF, or experimenting with different flours, etc. Also having a degraded mix is ok as long as I can pour it on the baking paper and bake bread that is amazing this first one turned out.
Having this little work to do with this bread is good for busy week schedules as some have noted. I hope we can get more stuff and more experimentation going on this, Would be great.
By throwing in a lot of Rye and Buckwheat. This will alter the results. Having said that they are still lovely looking loaves. It takes a little toggling to get it just right. This is a method to bring put what he thinks is the best in bread but hydration and timings will have to be adjusted for the flour used.
Yes Abe you are spot on. Now after two days of eating them I also feel these two loaves are light to digest, so there is something correct to the nutritional side - easy digestion - low "negative calories" etc.
It was also the first bread I used Buckwheat flour for. But with baking for me it is a lot about experimenting and playing so as the flour just arrived it happened to be used for the first time on this experiment bake.
Yes they turned out very well considering the first try and the taste of this flour mix is amazing. Also thanks to using all-organic flours. From what I see/think the first loaf seems to me to be underproofed, should have stayed an hour or two longer after shaping. The crumb is more evenly open on the curcuma bread as it had more time to proof after shaping. Looking forward to see the next "do-nothing" batch in a couple of days,
closeup shot of the second loaf that is 21+3 ,, 24 hour ambient temp ferment