Another Save
Would you believe that I completely knocked out the bubbles from the bulk ferment and still got this crumb?
My friend was having issues with Forkish's Overnight Country Brown (now where have I heard this before?) so I decided to do this bake myself. However I built the levain overnight and made the dough in the morning so I could keep an eye on it. Ran out of whole wheat so made up the difference with whole rye and used a 12.6% protein flour. Very high hydration for mostly white at 80% and with British flour to-boot (btw I think we can put this to rest now that it can't be done). Made a beautiful dough with a well developed gluten that didn't spread as much as thought it would between folds. I'm find letter folds one way then the other highly effective.
The recommended bulk ferment was 12-15 hours but I found it perfectly done by 6-7 hours. So far so good! Now here is where things began to go wrong and it might be a mixture of using whole rye, having a bench top that isn't wood or marble but rather plastic covered wood and not flouring enough. Basically I mucked up the shaping and compromised the dough. Now a few years ago I'd have thrown it all away and vowed never to bake again (until I calmed down that is). But I've come a long way I like to think. I started building up the dough again using slap and folds. The dough went through the usual signs of first gaining strength then coming apart after which the strength came back and the gluten was fully formed and ended up with an even stronger dough. Granted I had knocked out most of the bubbles and perhaps reintroduced some through slap and folds but basically the bulk ferment now was mostly for flavour and I've basically knocked back the dough completely.
Shaped the dough again where it totally behaved this time and into the banneton for a final proof. Recommended time was 4 hours but I found 2.5 to be ample. Baked this high hydration loaf freestanding in the mini oven. Not even on a stone but a foil wrapped wire rack. And voilà a lovely crumb considering.
Lovely rustic sourdough with lots of flavour. So a few conclusions...
1: Forkish's timings are way out.
2: British flour can handle the hydration but one needs to handle the flour correctly.
3: The science for an open crumb goes on...
"1: Forkish's timings are way out."
But I think they're all based on some seemingly unrealistic kitchen temperatures. Has anyone ever purported to maintain his temps to see if there's any way his timings aren't whack? His whole thing seemed to have been, "lower temps, longer fermentation, better(more complex) flavor."
I'm really interested in this claim of more complex flavors. I tasted a sample of so-called "naturally-leavened sourdough" at a local bakery and I have to say it was not exciting in the least. It was probably all white flour and had zero zing to it at all. It was only mildly less boring than off-the-shelf white bread. I should have talked to them, but they seemed busy and I couldn't figure out a way to word a question about their bread other than "Hey, why does this suck?" So it's better I kept my mouth shut.
In his kitchen are around 70°F (21°C) which is normal room temperature and I know that at 25% levain his recommended timings are way off for me. I even found the coolest place in the house because I went out for the day only to come back and find it ready after 6-7 hours. So who knows why his experience differs for many people more often than not.
I can't speak for your local bakery but for my own breads and my local bakery the sourdough has a lot more complex flavours. You can ask them what's in it, try another bakery or once your starter gets going then you'll see for yourself.
The bulk fermentation happens overnight in the overnight country brown. His sample schedule shows final dough mix at 5pm, shaping at 8am next morning. On page 66 he also says his house gets down to 65f at night, so I imagine if it never gets cooler than 70, timings might be different. This is frustrating. I wish he would pick a temperature and I could make my bulk/proofing area that exact temp for the duration.
Overday Country Brown. Needed to watch the dough and not the clock. So I can safely say that daytime room temperature at around! 21°C is about half the time. He also talks about the dough tripling and I think that's too much anyhow whatever the temperature. Once the dough is billowy I'll move on. Works very well.
I do wonder if you've ever had the opportunity to lower the temp for the longer fermentation? If so, did the flavor change significantly?
I know this is difficult to answer since naturally-leavened breads taste different every day regardless of conditions. For example my starter smelled just like red wine the day before yesterday, pears yesterday, and I dont' even know what kind of fruit today. All these changes even though I can't get it to rise more than double. Or do even that in 12 hours or less.
Of a warmer temperature fermentation. I think it gives a more pleasant tang then a longer colder ferment. So it's a balance between temperature and amount of starter for time. One of my favourite recipes very little starter and fermented for 12-16 hours at 75°F. Gives a lovely tang more akin to yoghurt then a cold retarded ferment.
As for your starter play around with hydration, flour and ratio. A 100% hydrated bread flour starter fed 1:1:1 will not rise as much as an 80% hydrated starter with some wholegrain and fed 1:2:2. Experiment.
So it's a personal preference I suppose. Ken says longer, colder fermentation results in more acid production, so that would be more tang.
but Forkish’s recipes work for me exactly as written including timings. My kitchen is around 73F and I use Canadian flour. I guess I got lucky since so many other people struggle with his recipes.
enables longer fermenting times but I have two issues with this...
1: Forkish doesn't use particularly strong flour and the flour I used came to the same protein %
2: He waits till the dough has tripled in volume (in many cases) but I think that's too much. We're waiting for an aerated dough full of bubbles which doesn't necessarily mean tripled.
But whatever works I guess. If you're getting good results then that's what you want.
That is a really gorgeous bread, and exactly what I'm trying to achieve, honestly. I don't have any interest in massive open crumb, since I'm trying to get a sandwich bread for my family with at least some whole grain content. My best result so far has been with Trevor J. Wilson's Champlain sourdough, but if that recipe's on line anywhere I might give it a shot... and then degas it on purpose....
Here is the recipe. I have Forkish's book "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast" where this recipe is from. I think this recipe has been ever so slightly altered, if I remember correctly, to suit this persons starter. If my memory serves me right then the levain build should have about 10% whole wheat and the hydration is 80%.
After all the degassing I was expecting a more closed crumb but it turned out just right. I suggest you work on the dough through the day and watch the dough, not the clock. Timings can be off.
Hope you like it.
Thanks much, Abe! And I definitely will. My Champlain turned out particularly well today, so I might repeat that a few times before I try something else, but this is definitely moving to the top of the list b/c I really just want a good sandwich bread.
My friend Carole sent me a recipe asking me to convert it for sourdough starter. Here is the original recipe...
https://www.wildyeastblog.com/they-took-a-licking/
...and here is my reworking:
Starter Build: 12-14 hours
Sponge: 4 hours ish - should be well risen and spongy (of course)
Final Dough Ingredients:
Form dough and bring to full gluten formation. Either using Trevor's Rubaud technique or slap and folds. Give it time and it'll come together.
Bulk Ferment until ready about 1 - 1.5 hours.
Shape and final proof till ready about 1 - 1.5 hours.
It's delicious.
That looks amazing, Abe, thanks for the recipe. I'm definitely going to be giving it a try... and I wish you could bookmark replies, not just posts.
This was an experiment of mine and while I did expect a little trial and error it turned out to be spot on.
Enjoy!
it is really, really good; And even better two days after taking it out of the oven (I find).
And yes, give the mix time, it'll look really soupy-scary, but I did SLAFs for about 20 minutes (after 10 minutes, it was already quite together, gave it a rest and had it again for another 10 minutes, just for good measure) and had a nice, smooth mass.
I hope you enjoy it as much as we did!
now seem to be habits in your kitchen ;-) . Good looking loaf and save. And every one of these experiences will certainly enhance your understanding of how the whole dang thang works and adds another note to your "recipe box" on how-to. Reminds me the saying that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
I recall that dbm, and probably others, stated that one can try to do just what you did, go back to a second iteration of slap and folds and move forward from there.
Often my saves turn out some of the best. And quite right... we learn more from making the best out of a bad situation and working out ways to save a dough. I now understand I've got a lot more to learn. But oh boy this bread tastes extra nice because of this save. I never do slap and folds at the beginning which would probably be the answer to a lot of questions. They always turn out to be the superior way to develop a dough. I only resort to them to save a dough and that's probably why they turn out better in the end.
Looks great. The crumb is really nice :)
Happy baking
Ru
I was surprised by the crumb. Taste is great and that is why I return to Forkish even with the seemingly strange timing recipes.
Abe, you amaze me with your beautiful bakes. I'm hoping to get back into it now that September is here and hopefully the heat wave is ending. I don't think I would have been brave enough to save the dough. Not even sure if I'd know if it was worth saving.
When it comes to saving a dough what have you got to lose? You can only gain!
Glad to have you back baking with us.