It's that time again, this will be our second "Community Bake". The FIRST ONE was a great success! This time we are baking Maurizio's Fifty-fifty Whole Wheat Sourdough. Guess what? As luck would have, today Maurizio celebrates the 5th anniversary of his website, The Perfect Loaf.
Since most bakers are separated by many miles and even different countries, this “community bake” may be the best way to share information and learn together along the way. The idea, for those who want to participate, is that we document our progress with pictures and post. It is suggested that each participant start a new comment to document their progress. As more information and images are available for your bake you can edit that post and append it. We’ll share our success, and just as informative, our failures. During the process we can ask questions, compare results, or offer suggestions. Both expert and novice have a place here.
We plan to start our bake today. We will be following Maurizio's well documented instructions. They can be found here. https://www.theperfectloaf.com/fifty-fifty-whole-wheat-sourdough-bread/
I hope you choose to join in. The more the merrier. Even if you don’t come aboard now you can still post your bake and results at any time in the future. All threads are constantly monitored for recent activity. Be sure, someone will be available to assist you.
Some may prefer to bake small loaves. It seems 500 grams loaves are the choice of many. Below I setup the spreadsheet for 1050 grams of total dough. This would make (2) 500 gram loaves or divide the ingredients weights in half to make a single 500 gram loaf. NOTE - the total dough weight is slightly increased to account for loss. On most of these bakes I choose to omit the Diastatic Malt and they baked well. I know many don't have this ingredient in their kitchens.
Dan
Always remember this, "we learn more from our failures than we do from success".
Post it all. The good, the bad, and (if you dare) the ugly.
I decided to test bake the 50/50 sourdough. I am concerned that I may have included too many large pictures. My intention is to show those that are new to this type of bread as much information as possible. If enough people find this post too long and large, I'll be happy to edit it at a later date.
The instruction for this bake can be found here. https://www.theperfectloaf.com/fifty-fifty-whole-wheat-sourdough-bread/ I got Maurizio's permission to post his instructions. He did a great job of providing loads of details. If you have any questions or comments, give us a shout.
I did my best to follow his instructions without deviating. I built the Levain as instructed and 4 hours later it was extremely active. NOTE - it is important to consider temperature when working with any dough. He recommends 80F for all fermentation.
In the past I have chosen to abstain from Slap and Folds. Leslie convinced me to give it a try. After 300 slap and folds the dough was gorgeous. I am converted... I really don't think the dough needed that many cycles, but I found it hard to stop. I had a blast.
The dough shown below had under gone 5 Stretch and Folds. It is moderately strong and has good structure. Even though the hydration looks scary wet, the large amount of whole wheat made the dough a dream to handle.
UPDATE: Since originally writing up this bake, I have baked the 50/50 a total of 4 times. Each time I used a different whole wheat grain. I have found that some grains absorb water better than others. I was able to make all 4 using the hydration stipulated, but some where much wetter than others. It might be best to hold out a little water in case a slight adjustment is necessary.
My Bulk Ferment went quite a bit longer than Maurizio instructed. But then again, I forgot to warm the dough water to 90F (old habits) so that may have affected the timing. But you will read this quite often on the site. "Watch the dough, not the clock". Update: I mixed another dough today and followed his instructions to warm the dough water to 90F. This time I actually over fermented at 5 hours. It got away from me :(
This baby rose. The dough was strong and resilient.
As I frequently do, I lightly oiled the bench, tools, bowls, and my hands. For me, it works very well. The dough turned out nicely and the pre-shape went well.
When you take into account the Levain this dough is 87% hydrated. Despite the massive amount of liquid it handled well.
After the BF I decided to proof the shaped doughs about 45 minutes on the counter. Then into the frig @ 38F for an overnight rest. NOTE - the dark specks on the dough are from the dusting flour. I had some chocolate malt and rice flour available to I put it to use.
The breads baked up very dark. Probably because of the diastatic malt. Next time I'll try without and compare the outcome. BUT, dark is good. I love dark, but not sure about the neighbors.
The bread baked beautifully in all ways. I have room for improvement, but that can be said for all of my breads :-)
The 2 images below are the crumb shots from the boule.
Sorry about the color shift. My iPad did it's own thing on this one.
Here is the crumb shot for the batard.
TASTE. Boy is it good! I actually had to go and cut another slice. I ate the one that was planned for the taste critique. The bread surprised me. It was creamy and had no bitterness what so ever. Hard Red Wheat was used for the whole wheat portion. My next bake will use Turkey Red. Normally I don't get a great deal of sour with a bread that has warm fermented for a relatively short time. Probably the HRW brought out the sour notes. At any rate it was a pleasure to eat and with each chew the flavors kept coming. For me, good sourdough hits you at the back of the tongue when you bite down. This bread didn’t let me down.
I wish everyone great success!
Danny
TASTE TEST I am planning to test the formula using a number of various grains. For sure, Hard Red Winter Wheat, Turkey Red, White Sonora, Hard White Winter Wheat, and Red Fife. After each bake I am saving a few slices in separately marked bags in the freezer. After I have exhausted my supply of grains, there will be a taste test comparing the flavors against one another. I will post my findings.
bread looks amazing with that rustic crust and that lovely crumb! Great idea for another community bake and well timed as I believe it was Maurizio's 5h anniversary for his blog 'The Perfect Loaf' this week judging from some posts on IG!
We can make it an anniversary celebration bake! :D Kat
of them. I used to start out with 600 and then cut it back to 300 and now 150 is about all that is needed especially with 5 sets of stretch and folds over 2.5 hours and 3.5 hour total bulk. I'm pretty sure the malt that is in the recipe is white diastatic malt but he Chocolate non diastatic would add a lot of color and flavor and Lucy would use both both since she is a floozy. it came out really nice even with the changes. Nice job. Nothing beats slap and folds. It is fun and works the best in my book plus you can do anything the first 10 minutes to dough and it is too stupid to know any difference or care that it is being slapped around.
Happy baking Dan - Maurizio is one fin baker and a very nice guy too!
Your loaves look amazing!! I love the dark crust.Can't wait to try it!
Thanks for organising.
Happy baking!
Ru
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Danny, Thanks for the detailed post and pictures and for organizing this community bake. I would love to get that kind of crumb with this recipe. It is one I would like to perfect for baking regularly. We like the taste and the fact it has a good proportion of whole grain flour, without being too virtuous. :-) But, my results in the crust and crumb department last year were less than satisfactory. Time to pull out my starter from the fridge, I guess.
Since we are all sharing a kitchen via the community bake, I thought it might be helpful to share some of my lessons learned during this bake. As new tips and/or thoughts come to mind I plan to post them here. Hopefully I’ll be adding to this list.
These are my thoughts at this time. It is not the only way, and maybe not the best way. Let me know if you have a better or equally alternate method. It might be helpful if others started a post similar to this so we could all learn together.
1) Hold out some water in case the flours and whole grains are not as absorbent as Maurizio’s ingredients.
2) This is a preference. I prefer “Coil Folds” to Stretch and Fold. It is a technique that is relatively new to me. It seems more gentle than the S&F, at least the way I do it :) Thanks Kat for the idea. See Video Here
3) The Coil Folds seem to work better when the bowl or tub is lighly oiled.
4) LIGHTLY Oiling the counter top, tools, hands, and vessels allow easier handling of the wet dough. It also avoids the danger of adding too much flour.
5) For those milling their whole grain, consider sifting in order to remove some of the bran. I hope to use the sifted bran in my levain. Since I sift more than needed for the levain I am considering rolling the shaped dough in the bran to get the full nutrition and benefits of the bran. Please let me know if you have other ideas for the bran.
Dan
Like the best. I like a mix of at least 5-6 different ones bui everyone has their favorites. I'm not a big fan of a few foi sure like Einkorn bit ohers love the stuff. They are insane though:-)
Can't wait to hear about the blind taste test. Make sure it is a blind taste test. too. Otherwise you might lie to yourself and be forced to eat bread you really don't like fiorver!
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The crumb looks really good, now I really want to bake this but it will have to wait till my next bake day :(
Had to laugh about the slap and folds - that is exactly how I felt too. I had done several doughs where the slap and folds were 80 - 100 but this time though Dabrownman & alphanso do more, so why not. I will keep on trying to see where it goes. The dough has to have high enough hydration for it to work though!
Well done Dan, hope lots more folk join this bake -
Leslie
Really happy to see you guys tackling my 50/50 whole wheat recipe, it's one of my favorites! Excited to see and hear what you all think as you get to baking.
Dan: really awesome results there! Crumb and crust look fantastic. Flavor-wise that's exactly what I was going for when I created the formula: some sourness, a creamy interior, no bitterness. It sounds like you're a firm slap/fold convert now... It sometimes takes a little practice, and potentially some bits of dough here and there, but I love that method for building strength early on.
Happy baking everyone!
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Since this thread is getting large and I expect will grow much larger, I decided to put a link to the post I am replying to. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56742/community-bake-maurizios-fiftyfifty-whole-wheat-sourdough-everyone-welcome#comment-411880 I got the idea because I read where Ru made a reply to your post. I had to scroll up a bunch of post to see what she was talking about. When I found the post in question I clicked the subject line to get the exact link to your post in my browser address bar. Copied that link and referenced it above. Hopefully this will help others navigate large post more efficiently.
TO YOUR QUESTION - It is nice to have everyone on the same page for a community bake. But then again we are not the gestapo ;-))
It seems to me that Maurizio’s 50/50 would work with any whole grain. Knowing your history of exploration, it wouldn’t surprise me if you tried ground walnuts for flour <LOL>
Experiment away. Everyone loves reading about your baking adventures... You too, Ru!
Dan
interesting to see and form an interesting part of this community bake I expect as we all use different flours from around the world. I was wondering to use different wholewheat flours and to see how it may affect the bake... :D Kat
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I am in the process of mixing up a 50/50 with Soft White Whole Wheat. Things are not going well :( The SWW is not strong in gluten. I had to use less water and also increased the flour (a little) as I Slaped & Folded. It wasnt a pretty sight. I can only imagine the fun fest trying to Slap a& Fold spelt :)
I am going to post the results of my testing soon. I baked HRW, HWW, SWW, White Sonora, Red Fife, and Turkey Red. The fours behave quite differently. I saving a few slices from each in the freezer. When all are baked a taste test will be performed. BUT it looks like the Hard Red Wheat and White Sonora are taking the lead.
Abe, I have some Eikhorn. How would you use that grain in this formula? Or would you recommend against it?
Danny
It was a day that was not ideal for baking due to 'life' going on but I did give it a go and tried to stay as close to Maurizio's formula as I could. If too many pictures, shout and I can reduce photos...
1. I used Marriage's Organic Strong Wholewheat Flour and their Strong Organic White...
7:30 AM made leaven as part of morning refresh but without coffee first somehow got muddled and only ended up with 120g leaven...never mind did give it a go anyway....as it turned out bubbly and happy... well I remembered to use warm water and in Brod & Taylor at 80F
8:40 AM AL with 711 g water warm, dough temp 83F and in proofer at 80F - I held water back as I was nervous about the hydration and wanted to see how the flour is absorbed....
12:00 MIX AND I LOVED THE SLAP AND FOLD WHICH I STARTED TO USE RECENTLY AFTER SEEING IT ON MAURIZIO'S IG. I am normally more a Rubaud type of character but when making more loaves at once my muscles just not strong enough! I ended up to hold the last 50g of water back but probably used that when wetting my hands for the slap and fold in a way....
Maurizio says to aim for 'medium gluten development' and I also found this mentioned on other sites...how do I know, I wondered? Any thoughts?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhHqpKMgkbZ/?hl=en&taken-by=maurizio
12:15 Start bulk Dough temp 79F, in proofer 79F
I tried to stick to the 30 min S & F but ended up doing them as different intervals and less than suggested and I also ended up doing coil/tension fold tucking the end in on each side...
I need to find a better less deep container that also makes it easy to measure the extend of rise.
13:30 coiling – tension pull 77FC
14:15 coiling – tension pull 79FC
15:20 Preshape - with - 20 min bench rest – making parcel method - looked for that bubbly, domed look....
15:40 final shaping – cinching -
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXDu5UvheBU/?hl=en&taken-by=maurizio
https://www.instagram.com/p/Be1FTx9lnkw/?taken-by=matts_miche
Then comes the bit that is NEW and STILL A BIT SCARY! Retarding in the wine cooler and baking in my new B20 oven!
This time as I thought the dough will proof faster I went for:
15:50 into wine cooler set to 6C - turned cooler up and down to make display to stay on 6C
after 1 hour in wine cooler dough temp was 18C at 6C in cooler
18:30 still 18C and turned cooler down to 4C and turned oven on..(the oven needs to warm up 2 hours so....oh, oh what if I overproof by then!!!!!!)
baked at 20:00....and here is result....hmmmm...I wished for a better ear...did not take photos of scoring which looked ok at the time...so....not sure what happened...but the taste is great and I like the crumb! I will keep trying that again!
Version 2 below from today....I stuck all the way with Maurizio's formula including timings and temps apart from doing coil folds rather than S & Fs.
I also did not do the 38F cold retard over night but this one ONLY had 2 hours in the wine cooler at 6C.....I am still learning about my wine cooler and how best to use and was very much thinking '85% rise' for whole wheat ...hmmm probably still could have baked it earlier or do I need to cut bulk shorter....as dough was quite proofy.....
But the taste is great and my son who often says 'I don't like brown bread', munches this without even realizing it is 50/50...Ha, ha, Ha..... Kat
What a crumb. Ear, or lack of, is completely forgotten about after seeing that beautiful crumb. Love the write up too.
This is a young levain so did you do a pre levain starter feed allowing it to mature before going onto the levain build? I'm wondering if it's necessary when a starter has been sitting in the fridge for a while.
I am glad you enjoyed the write up too.....as we pretend 'to bake with each other ' virtually' this would mean in my case that there would be a fair amount of chatting...so therefore 'wordy' entries from me, I am afraid!
I re-fresh my 100% hydration starter twice a day at room temp and in this hot weather even had to do this three times. I do this and often use most of it for regular baking rather than building another leaven.
For the 50/50 I followed the process and made a separate leaven using wholewheat/white flour and then used it young. Normally my leaven can be around 8 hours and I use it as part of re-freshing routine and avoiding waste...
I am not be best person to ask about the fridge as I rarely keep my starter in the fridge but isn't there this amazing 'no fuss starter' thread about refreshing starter from fridge? Happy baking... Kat
would have exploded out of its shell but the crumb wasn't harmed much at all - nice! Has to taste great! Well done and happy baking
how do I know? Any tips? I assume now I know what the dough got up to in the wine cooler for 4 hours at 6C(ish) and what it looked like during scoring etc. I can now reduce that time ......I need to get some see through plastic covers so that I actually can see the loaves sitting in my cooler with their ambient lighting!!!!
Get ready..my next loaves will be underproofed! ha, ha Kat
rather than using a shaped final proof in the fridge. You could be sleeping oir not paying attention i=or can't see it and then next thing you know that dang thing over proofs. Next time you have a better idea as long as teh it is the exact same bread and temperature of the kitchen and fridge are the same temperatures. But if the dough is a different size or different grain and different hydration - now it is a guessing game again and dumb luck which Lucy relies on more than anything:-)
I got tired of having to reshape and proof again when it over proofed as a shaped loaf in the fridge - better to just plan on it and handle it less to get a better spring, bloom, and crumb.
I got tired of having too many breads look like this one on the outside and it was all Lucy's fault too!
as my very first bakes were based on cold bulk fermentation and I had some amazing results...
I seem to remember a formula posted by Drogon that used that approach and might revisit...that might be another interesting community bake to do one day....I was looking into this direction too as it seems to be easier to bulk more dough just in cold bulk as you don't have to worry about getting a lot of bannetons in the fridge at one time....room for thought... Kat
was the one to popularize the cold modern cold bilk process in his 1995 book if I remember right. He pretty much single handedly with Jeffrey Hamelman brought modern SD baking back to the rest of us amature bakers. I always wanted to do a shaped cold proof because it would be so much faster to do in the morning of bake day but it has its drawbacks if faster. I know Ian is a big PR and cold bulk ferment guy too but I am coming around tioit ,
Those look amazing!! Love the crumb :)
You're so talented!!
Happy baking
Ru
it is that ear again! Inspired by your loaves managed somehow to get them for the 'mainly white' and now on to the 50/50! :D Kat
I think the crumb is outstanding. 50% whole wheat and a light and airy bread. The second version is a major improvement.
I came to the same conclusion as you. I am over fermenting, I think... My current thought is, whole grain is a heavier flour. Because of this the BF and proof need to be complete a little earlier than our white breads. Does anyone agree or disagree?
Dan
Hey, I have started using the Coil Folds. I like how gentle the dough stretches. I think there is less chance of over stretching the gluten. I can be hard on my dough :-((
Both you and Kat have made great loaves.... hope to be able to post a good bake too.
Leslie
this will be a very interesting bake. now I have to check Maurizio’s IG
Leslie
you will like this bake...where I used a certain technique I put the link into my post as I thought it is then all in one place...I love watching his slap and fold! I know I was also raving about Rubaud and still do but now I do bigger batches and it is very 'satisfying' depending on my mood!
Watch this post from a baker on IG and the noise is sooooo mesmerising!
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bk4p6kMFD4u/?taken-by=leocorbo_baker
Slap, squelch, slap ...bliss!
I'm going to do a pre feed when I try this this weekend, my starter might be sleepy after only fours on one feed after being in the fridge.
Best of luck :)
or not. Maurizio's 50-50 as baguettes.
I posted these in early 2018, but they still fit the bill.
The diastatic malt was eliminated, and the hydration dropped from 87 to 82 for reasons explained in the original post.
I've been doing 300 French Folds for years now. 150, a 5 minute rest, and a final 150 before the BF starts. never fails.
Alan
gotta try what alphanso does. very happy with my progress. Will use it in this bake soon.
Leslie
Still lovely after all if these years! Now get them down to 150 with 4 sets of S & F's every 30 minutes or even better, 4 gentle slap and folds of 4 slaps each and you will finally get some SOOPER DOOPER Great Baguettes (SDGB's) instead of Just Stupendous Ones:-)
I have increased the autolyse time to about 3 hours and reduced the overall hydration to about 83% as I am using local Slovenian flours which don't support so high hydration. The final rise was on the counter (no retarded proofing in the fridge). I haven't used diastatic malt. Baked in Lodge iron-cast skillet.
The picture is not the best one, but still good enough to see the openness of the crumb.
Such a beautiful crumb. Just look at those thin shiny membranes of dough. Any pointers as to why you increased autolyse time to 3 hours? Thanks!
Thanks GrinChaser!
The extended autolyse gives more extensibility to the dough. The autolyse works in two directions: strengthening the gluten bonds and at the same time due to enzymatic activity of protease it starts to break the gluten bonds. So the final effect is more extensible dough which helps to get more open crumb.
Happy baking GrinChaser!
Joze
What did you use for your whole grain? I like the look of your bread.
Dan
The whole-grain wheat flour I have used is milled on a roller mill and not on a stone mill. Thus the bran particles are of bigger size and fewer so they don't affect (cut) the gluten network as much. The extended autolyse, by my opinion, softens the bran particles and therefore one can get better crumb structure. At the same time the extended autolyse gives more extensibility to the dough so you can get bigger alveoli.
With extended bulk fermentation in the fridge for about 6 to 8 hours (putting the dough into the fridge at the end of bulk fermentation) one can get even more open crumb structure. Shaping chilled dough helps a lot to prevent air bubbles to escape during shaping process. Here is the picture of 80% whole-grain wheat bread using exactly the same whole-grain flour, and the rest 20% of four is the same type 500 wheat flour. The same ingredients, the same oven, just slightly modified process including extended bulk in fridge, shaping of chilled dough and first part of final proofing in the fridge for about 20 hours makes a big difference.
Hope this answers at least partly your question.
Happy baking DanAyo!
Joze
looking at that bread!!!! Very, very beautiful and I am intrigued at your process with the extended cold bulk in the fridge and then shaping and if I understand after that ambient proofing?
Cold bulk is something that Dab also mentioned as well as other members on the forum. I have to say when I started on this SD journey my early baking phase was based on cold bulk fermentation and I had some great results but felt in order to learn more I have to 'extend' my techniques...
Joze - how far to you let you dough rise in bulk fermentation before you put it in the fridge? Do you know whether your fridge is very cold ie. 3C or warmer? When you have a moment it would be really appreciated, if you could share a bit of a process with timing...I really would like to give this a go.... Kat
Here are the answers to your questions:
How far to you let you dough rise in bulk fermentation before you put it in the fridge?
It is hard to say but likely between 20-40%. When I see all the signs of the dough and the dough is well aerated and billowy I just put it in the fridge and let it ferment further for some hours - this would be from 4 to 8 hours. The top shelf in my fridge is at 10-11 dC, at the bottom about 6-7 dC. Usually I put it on the top one but if I let it ferment for longer time during the night I might decide to put it on the bottom.
After this process the dough is really well fermented and aerated and also chilled so shaping is really simple. I handle the dough very carefully not to degas it too much. This dough is quite "runny" in warm state but in cold state it is really easy to shape it.
So the final proof could be in the fridge or at room temperature or both, depends when I have to bake. If I have time then I let it proof in the fridge otherwise i take it out and proof at ambient temp. The time required for final proofing is very dependent of the state of the dough when I interrupted the extended bulk fermentation. Sometimes you will get more aerated dough and you will need less final proofing and vice versa.
I hope I have answered your question.
Happy baking not.a.crumb.left!
Joze
and also sorry for my late response...now I am back from holidays I will have to experiment with cold bulk fermentation more and also spotted your blog with a new bake and really good explanation...
This reminds me of an Italian baker called Matteo Festorazzi and on IG called https://www.instagram.com/ca_mia_breadlab/?hl=en Have you come across his baking?
He has a ebook Natural Leavenings and also suggest to use retarded starters in his formulas...I am now intrigued and have to look at that book again in more detail.....
I have found that a warm premix turns my UK flour into soup but a long colder pre-mix creates a nice open crumb even at lower hydration such as the Champlain....
At the moment my starter is waking up after holiday but oh this might be a new exciting project...
Thank you for sharing....Kat
Your process has given me something to think about. I used to retard the BF. It is a lot easier to store a single container in the fridge rather than a few bannetons. But, the reason I opted to retard the proof (and not the BF) is because it was my thought that alveoli would not be disturbed after the shaping. I also liked the benefit of easy scoring and, since the dough is baked straight out of the frig, timing the pre-heating of the oven was not an issue.
On the other hand, shaping wet or highly extensible dough would be much nicer to handle if chilled. But what does this cold shaping do to the aveoli? Are they crushed in the process? Do you shape straight out of the frig, or do you take the chill off first?
I’ve asked a lot of questions and hope to learn more about this. Your crumb is beautiful and your process obviously works. Please elaborate more concerning the timeline of your fermentation.
Thanks for posting...
Dan
Joze, it seems a number of us are interested to learn of your process. This is what the community bake is all about. Would you document your timeline and all processes, so we could duplicate it in our kitchens?
A thought for all that mill grain. The bran and other heavy large bits can be a hindrance to the crumb and rise. My latest bake used home ground Hard White Winter Wheat. I ran it through a #50 (fine) screen. I think it extracted about 85%. I plan to use the extracted bits for levain and also I want to try rolling the shaped loaves over them, similar to applying seeds to the outside. NOTE - in the past the bran has burnt on the outside. So this bake will be cooler, maybe 460F covered and 425F convection with the cover off.
I was on vacations in the mean time. I will try to document the timeline and the process this week trying to bake another loaf. However, I have a warning here that the flours we use are quite different and thus what works good for one flour doesn't work for another. I am using Slovenian flour which is like other Europeans flours and from past I know that this is quite different from the American flours.
So regarding shaping the chilled dough: you should be gentle trying not to degas the dough with exception of some big alveoli. It means that you do not perform a tight shaping.
Happy baking Dan!
Joze
I am very curious about refrigerating the dough at the end of bulk fermentation. As already asked: How much do you let your dough rise in bulk before throwing it in the fridge? Also, what is your schedule for folds during the bulk? Oh one last one maybe: How much more does the dough rise in the fridge? Nope, one more question: how much does your dough weigh? I make batches of 3 loaves the equal between 2250 and 2400 g of raw dough. That would take a lot longer to cool in the fridge than a single loaf of ~775 g.
Danni,
I have been putting dough in the fridge after bulk fermentation for pizza dough making for a while. I usually see a significant slowdown in yeast activity. The same amount of rise that might have happened at room temp seems to take maybe 10x longer.
Essentially, I assume that unless I plan on leaving the dough in the fridge all day or overnight, that I can assume negligible rise in the fridge. Even though there is very little rise, I think there is still significant flavor development and gluten development going on while in the fridge.
I guess if your amount of dough is big enough, there would be a lot of residual heat that the fridge would take some time to remove, and that residual heat would allow some rising when the dough is initially put into the fridge.
Learning about refrigerated bulk ferment pizza dough changed my pizza world. The same recipe went from dough that was tough to work with to dough I could throw into the air with confidence, dough that was fun to work with.
Still, I am still to see what Joc says about his process.
The extended bulk in the fridge can take from 4-6 hours or even more when it is done overnight. I regulate the temperature by putting the dough on the top shelf in the fridge or at bottom. So for longer timing I putt it at the bottom where I have about 6-7 degrees and at the top 10-11 degrees Celsius.
I dpon't do any folds during the extended bulk in the fridge, I just do 4-6 folds at the beginning of bulk phase in 30-45 minutes interval. I might skip some if I see that the dough is strong enough and I don't need to work more on the tenacity (elasticity) of the dough or in other words the dough strength.
My dough would usually be below 1kg so it chills faster. If I would work with bigger batch I would use larger vessel (plastic box) so the area of the dough would be much bigger and the dough height would be relatively small about 2-3 centimeters and that would chill fast as well. The S&F are then done slightly differently. I always use olive oil to oil the container what helps me a lot during the S&F and later on to tip out the dough.
Happy baking Danni!
Joze
you have set the bar very high indeed. Beautiful bake!
Leslie
I think this can be easily replicated :-)
Happy baking Leslie!
Joze
Here comes version 3...still following the Maurzio formula but this time
Dan was wondering how to get a loaf with 2 ears and after looking at some examples and previous trials it was more or less fairly deep (5mm) straight cut in the middle that I tried...Loading is always a bit hectic but tried to take photos of before wine cooler, after 2nd proof, scoring and then baked! Crumb tomorrow!
Wanted to compare before and after visually this time....
Into the wine cooler at 4C for 1 hour and 15 min and I can see when the temp goes up and down on display...went for ambient lighting as
green - signifies
hope....
I thought about what Maurizio said about 'the dough rising somewhat but more just filling the basket and not having much rise'.......
Scoring - down the middle with a razor!
Oh, oh.....
Not quite sure what conclusions to draw but overall happy that I am moving in the right direction and to have a more balanced loaf with an ear and nice crumb...maybe I could have pushed a little bit longer.and probably would bake it a bit darker but have to watch that I don't get a burnt bottom with that baking stone in the oven........ Kat
p.s. it's the weekend and looking forward to lots of bakes from everyone!!!!!
p.p.s 2nd loaf ...
How long did you leave the dough in cooler after your final shaping?
Did you find that chilling the dough at the end of the BF made it easier to handle?
Ru
and thank you for reminding me as I thought I included the time....the loaves were in the wine cooler set to 4C for 1 hour and 15 min...now I believe the temp in cooler is accurate but I noticed that the 'warm' dough holds a lot of residual temp and noticed the temp display to go up to 5c and then down to 4C again....
When I took the temp after that 1 hour and 15 minit still was 20C. However the dough was more chilled than rather letting it proof at room temp in the summer. I thought about what Maurizio had said about the dough having risen a bit but 'more just filling the bannetons' or something like that and combined with just lettting it go 85% I thought ...oh well I might underferment but give it a go.......I had translucent plastic covers though and kept a close eyes on those fast moving beasts!!!!
Does this help? Happy Baking... Kat
you got an ear an all! the crumb is great!
will see how my bake has gone. it isjust out of the oven.
This thread is great!
Leslie
and lovely to all bake together again! Kat
two bakes are tomorrow's enriched Naan for Tikka Masala and then Sunday's killer Kamut pizza. Both are in the fridge buking away with the pizza getting 48 hours in cold bulk - both are yeast poolish breads too! Then We will do a 50/50 bread b8it half will be sprouted:-)
Hey Dab,
I recently got a pizza oven that will go up to 950F. Long cold ferments seem to be very popular in the pizza world, but not in the bread community. Why is this? All my pizzas are sourdough, but I never push the fermentation past 30 hours or so. Typically, I start with very little inoculation, 3% or so. and go for around 24 hours in the low 60deg Fs.
Bread is not Pizza but i know that some folks that make a huge amount of dough and keep it in the fridge all week and take 500 g of it, proof it and bake a loaf of bread every day. So long DF in the fridge aren't that uncommon. I am making pizza tomorrow that will have bit more than a 50 hour BF. 24 hours is fairly standard for BF for pizza. I do a lot of BF for bread at 18-24 hours.
The longer the BF the more extensible the dough becomes. too much extensibility for bread is not that great but for pizza you really want it to really stretch out easy and thin but still be strong enough (High Gluten flour) So it doesn't get holes in it.
High gluten flour really need a long cold bulk ferment to make it extensible enough to make a good pizza dough and getting the gluten well developed in the beginning is a must so you can windowpane the dough when you stretch it out huge for the pies. The whole pie is a windowpane:-)
Here's my go at it.
50% freshly milled Serventa berries, finely milled and not sifted.
50% KA BF.
8% liquid mature levain
2% salt
86% hydration.
1 hr Autolyse.
4 hr bulk, shape, 20 min rest, into banneton, and retarded overnight. Baked at 475/20 and 425/15.
Now for the second part of the recipe!
Cabbage Sourdough Gnocci
Cut the loaf in to slices and soak all but two slices in two cups of raw sheep's milk for 5 min, then drain.
Blanch 1/4 head of cabbage in boiling water, then chop finely. Meanwhile, brown some hot Italian sausage with a clove of smashed garlic. Mix together with with the bread, 100g flour, and 2 duck eggs. Refrigerate for 2+ hours.
Toast the reserved slices in olive oil until golden brown and break in to crumbs.
Roll the batter in to balls in a bowl of flour, then place on a floured baking sheet.
Boil for several minutes, then top with the bread crumbs, PR, and EVOO.
We can all learn from you. If you have time and are inclined, it would be great to have you detail the steps and accompany with images. Step by step, blow by blow.
You’ve nailed the bake and I’m sure many of us would appreciate the information. I know I am looking forward to your help :-))
Dan
I was pretty happy with the bake. We can certainly all learn from each other.
I will bake this again and document it more, although I'm not sure the result will be quite the same.
Several other points about this bake that I forgot to mention:
There was really no kneading. Mixed the salt/levain after 1hr of autolyse until just incorporated, and then left it to the stretch and folds after that. I forgot how many stretch/folds there were. I think 3-4 in the first two hours. I think with these high percentage wheat breads, excessive kneading can hurt the gluten if there's already been sufficient gluten development via autolyse.
I'd like to try to make this bread several more times, with different WW and white flours. This one was 50% KA BF, since I've found that freshly milled flour needs more strength than store-bought WW, and KA BF provides that. Next time I might try reducing it to 25% to see what happens.
I'm looking forward to your taste test between the different wheat varieties.
you did an overnight proof! I want to try that. Thanks!
and what a great bake! Beautiful all around! Kat
I love the crumb - amazing how well this recipe is performing with so many different flours and styles. look forward to your next bake
Leslie
That is a beauty!!
Well done!
I followed Maurizio's method as closely as possible. As I cannot get the same flours, and my local ones are lower in protein I added a bit of gluten flour to bump the bread flour protein to 13.5%, the AP at 11.5% I had. I did 200 slap and folds and dough looked good at the end.
I kept the dough in microwave at 80 deg F, 5 set of coil folds every half an hour. Here it is in bowl after last stretch and fold
an hour later I decided it had finished BF and preshaped
I rested it for 20 minutes, shaped and retarded overnight - 13 hours in total. Baked this morning in DO
It bloomed well in the oven but sadly no ear. Will see how crumb is a bit later today.
Reasonably happy as this is a first bake of this formula and for me a high % wholegrain flour.
Leslie
Yep, you are the batard gal :-))
I think bringing the gluten to 13.5% for the BF portion is a good idea. I baked a Soft White Wheat loaf thaat had lower protein and had a heck of a time working with it. It was way too wet. I ended up cutting 25g water and adding a little more flour.
If anyone wants to add vital wheat gluten and is unsure of the amount, we can show you the formula or calculate it for you. Just ask.
It looks like those that have had the nicest rise have not proofed the dough to extremes. I’ll keep that in mind for the future.
Leslie, are you using diastatic malt for this formula? How about others?
Tomorrow I will have my grand daughter over for a blind taste test. She has a very discerning palate. We are taste testing Hard Red Winter Wheat, Hard White Winter Wheat, Soft White Wheat, Turkey Red, White Sonora, and Red Fife. I’ll be posting the results.
Dan
sorry forgot that. Next time I might shorten BF a touch. will see when I cutIt!
Leslie
I did use diastatic malt for my bakes as it was in the formula. I have to admit that I tried it on and off in the past and not sure whether it makes that much of a difference and open for thoughts. I noticed that Vanessa Kimbell also recommends it for bakes in her new book. Kat
really quite happy with this
Just couldn't wait any longer to see how it was.
Leslie
Congrats for the big success!
That is to die for! Well done!!!
lacy and open and I would be so happy with that result. I also will consider Mini Ovens advice as I seem to have a similar experience with the 'ears'....Like you I was wondering about overproofing...letting bulk go only to 30% and or the advice on medium development of gluten during slap and fold from Maurizio...
then there is the comment from Joze about hydration and how much water his flour can absorb and knowing your flour? All this thoughts swirling in the head...
They will settle like that snow globe in the end and bread we bake! That crumb is truly stunning, slice by slice....Kat
That is amazing! Mine has just come out the oven and really look to your crumb at how I wish mine to turn out. If only!
This is a lovely recipe.
Everything about your bread is absolutely beautiful. I bet you could bake bread with 100% whole wheat and produces holes large enough place your thumbs through ;-)) It must be all that fresh New Zealand air.
Can’t wait to hear what Maurizio says about all of this...
Dan
What a beautiful country to live. It is breath taking. I just went to Wikipedia to research that special air :) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#/media/File%3AEmerald_Lakes%2C_New_Zealand.jpg
Kudos to you for managing this difficult bread with your oh-so-different flours. It's a beaut!
Wendy
Very nice bake Leslie, it looks wonderful!
Happy baking
Ru
Well done, great crumb!
Congratulation Leslie, that is a great crumb.
Joze
I am a bit relieved to have this crumb after all the other gorgeous bakes.
Leslie
surface of the loaf just before you scored it? Think back.
I might keep track of this texture asking myself, is the dough skin elastic enough to not score? Is it dry enough to lay a stencil on it instead? If too moist, fear of stencil sticking, skip the scoring.
Not all doughs require scoring and I find that the high hydration doughs with a thin yet soft skin when turned out rise in the oven with smooth lovely crust surfaces. Same goes for those sandwich tinned doughs. Sometimes they get scored if their skin is strong or dry to direct or increase volume during baking and sometimes they don't get scored because the skin can/will stretch evenly. Evaluate the skin of the loaf, make a decision and then take notes after putting the loaf into the oven. Oven temp and the covering over the loaf will make a big difference too. There is more protection of the loaf skin in a DO (Dutch oven) delaying the setting of the crust.
probably never had. it is a really good point though. I had been watching Teresa Greenway Udemy course and she brushed offthe rice flour then brushed with water before scoring. From memory, yes it was very soft and the razor dragged so I thought oh dear I have overproofed. I am wary of blowouts if left unscored but you are so right it would have given a beautiful smooth top.... food for thought.
thank you for that suggestion - your broad knowledge continues to amaze me. Bake happy Mini
Leslie
Your prespective is often very unique. Until reading your post the thought of not scoring a bread was unthinkable to me. The way you think out of the box is “mind blowing”, as we used to say in the 70s. I can’t imagine anyone not learning from your regular postings.
And then on top of your knowledge, you throw in a dose of humor...
A resounding THANK YOU!
Danny
many with not all that that much experience, baking some of the best bread to be found anywhere, one after another using a fine formula that isnlt that easy to do and get right. It just shows the deep talent, determination and commitment on the Fresh Loaf and why it is the best place for serious, amature bakers to do their thing and discuss what's happening - because it is happening right here! Nice!
Happy baking Fresh Lofians
.
I bet the crumb is good too. look forward to seeing crumb
Leslie
I was looking through other posts and found yours. That is an amazing crumb and hope mine is even half as good as yours. I'm really flabbergasted at how good your crumb is.
Thank you Leslie. Hope I haven't jumped the gun.
I can’t ever wait too long before I cut - 4-5 hours usually before I cave in. I wasn’t at all sure about my bake, just like you. It rose well so I reckon you have a good one too.
thank you for the compliment, I think the stars were aligned yesterday ?
Leslie
I actually managed to participate in this bake this weekend, despite also making six different breads for the little bread shop on Saturday and dealing with a bunch of family stuff. The schedule did affect my bake a bit though. Key points (to not make this post too long) are below, along with pictures.
Here is the dough after mixing in the Ank:
After the bulk ferment:
Beautiful colour, adequate spring and bloom:
Gorgeous crumb!:
The crumb is very moist and creamy (mind you, I cut it a bit too soon; I was putting one of the loaves in the shop and wanted to make sure it was edible beforehand!) and the flavour beautifully sour - just right! It made awesome toast this morning too. I will definitely make this one again, with a shorter bulk ferment and a bit lower hydration if I keep this flour blend.
It sounds like you were a little concerned about it as it went into the oven. It's really nice to know that it turned out so beautifully anyway!
amazing and that crumb...just want to put butter on it straight away...I find it amazing how we use the same formula and get so many beautiful different breads! Kat
Great write up, Wendy! I’m reading along thinking, this is going to be a mess. And then I get to the picture of the baked bread. GORGEOUS... Isn’t amazing how slack dough can get a phenominal bloom?
I think you did well to half the malt. I used the requested amount for the first bake and there were color differences in the crumb. I believe the malt caused this. I’ve seen this before.
Also, we I read you used soft white wheat, I cringed. In one of my 50/50 experiments I used SWW and had to leave out some water and also add a bite of flour in oder to get a workable dough. I tested 6 different wheat grains and the SWW absorbed much less water than any of the others. But it did produce a wicked bloom. Do you think this is because the weaker flour allows the dough less resistance to rise?I have not used Spring Red Wheat, but isn’t it weaker than Hard Red Wheat?
Your bread sure baked up beautiful.
Dan
A word of caution - if anyone is using a soft wheat (lower in protein) you would do well to hold out some water and adjust the hydration as the dough starts to come together. Maybe higher protein BF might offet the whole grain, but haven’t tried it.
I think hard red spring is actually higher protein than hard red winter wheat, but there's probably not a lot of difference between them. There is certainly a bigger difference between either hard red wheat and the soft white wheat though. :)
Our Canadian flours tend to be higher protein anyway which is why I went ahead and mixed the high-protein bread flour with AP flour for the unbleached half of the mix.
it has baked up beautifully! Interesting how the different flours respond. The crumb is lovely though, great for toast and sandwiches ?
Leslie
I did not plan to bake but then it just kind of happened....the following bugged me...the degree of 2nd proof and how it relates to medium gluten development that Maurizio mentioned and then the degree of rise during bulk...and the amount of hydration...
I thought...my dough or flour is kind of 'tired' by the end and this might relate to the lack of rise or ears and oven rise...
So..
1. Reduced water to 765g rather than 805g
2. Really tried not to over do slap and fold and aim for 'medium' gluten development
3. A post from Danni also reminded me about that important 30% rise ONLY and after 2.5 hours I did a WP test and there were bubbles and I finished bulk and preshaped, 20 min bench rest
3. Final shape and into wine cooler at 4C but dough basically kept residual head of 20C and proofed 1 hour and 45 minutes...
Would be very happy to hear about people's thoughts on relationship between end of bulk and 2nd proof in particular and gluten development during mixing.
Very happy with those loaves and can't wait to cut tomorrow morning!
It is morning and here are crumb photos:
Enough bread to eat and time to absorb and let findings sink in....I think 'shorter bulk' works for me but then need to extend the '2nd proof'....also I pre-shaped only 15 min after last fold and that probably affected the crumb...
However, very happy here with my learning and result! Now....spotted again more new entries....! Kat
p.s ha, ha couldn't resist as I was making packed lunches in the morning and big eye roll from son!
Looking forward to the crumb shot. :)
It looks like you used a similar procedure as my bake, but instead of using higher protein flour you lowered the hydration.
I agree on the degree of proof: these high percentage WW breads really need to be proofed to a lower degree than more straight white loafs, or else the gluten network will begin to degrade and not support the final oven rise.
Interesting that you mention the kneading and gluten development. For my loaf, I actually didn't knead at all. Recently, I've been going with minimal to no knead in favor of extended autolyse and/or a longer bulk fermentation at lower inoculation or temperature.
has me intrigued....it is funny how the more you learn you suddenly stumble across another variable with it's nuances that needs to be considered...
There is another amazing baker called Matteo Festo and he talks often about the development in gluten and he has one post of a very poofy wheat loaf on IG where he mentions the amount of gluten development to pull this of for an open and even airy crumb....
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj4O4BaglCP/?taken-by=ca_mia_breadlab
So I shall experiment a bit more with this..
1. get gluten going but not too much...
2. let bulk go 30% or less not more...do WP test if not sure....
3. make sure I let dough go longer than the last one in 2nd proof in wine cooler at 6C...I think the crumb looks good but I could have given it a bit more time....I am getting a feel for what the dough looks in the banneton when it comes out of the cooler...I am not that scientific a baker so need to learn what the dough tells me!!!!
Would love to hear about your experiments and timings with the longer AL and longer cold bulk fermentation.
Interestingly enough Matteo has a number of formulas in his ebook 'Natural leavenings' where he bakes with 'refrigerated sourdough'. I need to absorb but he states that by keeping the liquid sourdough starter at a low temperature (6C) for a few day we force the activity of the bacteria and dampen the growth of yeasts. As a consequence the internal structure of the bread is different to normal with a lot of irregular holes and compact between them. When shaping the dough it is very easy to handle, he continues, and it will also have risen far less. The cold proofing and baking at high temperature will cause a severe thermal shock which will considerably increase the volume of the bread....
I really must look into this more....maybe contact Matteo and make the 'refrigerated method' another community bake...... Kat
how many have you made now? it gets better all the time. Look at the lovely ears you got! can’t wait for the crumb shot!
Leslie
I was aiming for a loaf that is 'balanced' from the outside and inside....and what a balancing act it is...
This was 4th attempt and I think I get a feel for the flour and what is needed....:D Kat
Well done!!