Tip - could your bread use a little Vitamin C
It’s worth a try!
I have baked the bread pictured above 30 or more nearly consecutive times and am intimately familiar with the characteristics of this dough. In an ongoing attempt to extend the length of fermentation @ warm temps I came upon acsorbic acid. I learned that it strengthened the gluten and produced higher rises.
My testing seem to indicate that AA used in small doses have dramatically improved both the gluten strength and its ability to tolerate some abuse. The resulting rises have been remarkable. Before AA the dough (always mixed at 1760g TDW) would consistently rise to the top of the tub, but not to overflowing. Shaping is also improved, due to the additional dough strength.
I have not tested the percentage of AA used much. I am happy with my present results. I use 1/10th of 1%, or 1g per 1000g flour.
If this is of interest, I can hear you asking, how/where do I get this Ascorbic Acid? Well, happy days! Vitamin C tablets are almost 100% AA. I use the 1000mg tablets. For 1000g flour a single tablet is perfect. I grind to dust and it dissolves in the dough water very easily.
I have a fairly discerning palette and have not been able to detect any flavor difference when AA is added to the dough.
Think about giving this a try. You may be glad you did.
Dan
Mmmm interesting. I have a container of vit c that I've never opened. Worth a try was this yeasted or sourdough? And does it make any difference.
Sourdough.
I’m not sure what affect AA would have on yeasted doughs. It was for that reason, that I decided to post under Sourdough and Starter’s.
If you decide to try it, please post back and share your findings.
Dan, I've been using AA in my breads made with fresh milled wheat for some time now. I just finished off an 8oz container of AA crystals today after adding 1/4-1/2 tsp to 500g or so grams of flour for the loaves I baked over the past 6-7 months. I went with pure crystals instead of crushing tablets because the tablets had additional ingredients such as binders, etc. A large percentage of the loaves were yeasted doughs. Others had both yeast and the discard from my rye starter. For the most part the yeasted/discard loaves had 100g of 100% hydration starter fresh out of the fridge and 2 tsp of IDY. I did give the starter a bit of a "head start" by milling the flour onto it and adding the water, mixing them and then letting them spend an hour of quality time getting acquainted. After that I would add the other ingredients, yeast, sorghum molasses, ghee and salt and begin kneading them with the KA mixer. I would consider those loaves primarily yeasted and found that the AA worked just fine. I got an 'enthusiastic' rise much as you've described after the yeast went in. Today I baked a Pullman loaf using 200g of the rye starter and only adding 1/4 tsp of IDY while kneading. It turned out fine. The rise was slower because it was primarily driven by the starter but it was rapid compared to SD loaves made without AA. Most health food stores will carry the AA crystals if anyone is hesitant to use tablets.
I'd heard of people adding 'onion juice' to rye breads. Wonder if that has the same effect? Onions are high in vitamin C.
Not sure, Laura.
This might help your degraded dough, but hopefully we can learn what is causing your problem. Maybe we can get others on TFL to revisit your starter situation. There is a lot of hands on experience here.
Dan
It's the acidity that helps rye breads. Not a problem when using sourdough starter though.
Onion juice is acidic or might be for flavour too.
is also the cats meow for high percent rye breads and pumpernickel. I adds a ton of flavor that is so traditional with rye but I don't think it does anything for the dough structure or gluten.
where in the right amounts will strengthen a weak(er) dough.
Sorry Abe I have to correct your understanding of Ascorbic acid.
Ascorbic acid (AsA) is used not because it is acidic but because of its ability to oxidise dough. In the quantities it is used it wouldn't have any appreciable effect on the acidity of the dough. Although it is in itself a reducing agent, in a dough system through chemical and enzymatic processes it causes the bonds between gluten proteins to oxidise, thus creating a strong gluten network.
Nor does ascorbic acid directly help yeast. (Not that I know of anyway).
But you are right that an overdose of AsA would weaken dough. But that is because it is a reducing agent.
We're here to learn. Thank you for the lesson.
So I got something right but by-mistake only :)
I never use Ascorbic Acid in my dough and for some reason thought it was the acidity that contributed to the strengthening of the dough.
Now while I'm no chemist wouldn't it be the acidic element of ascorbic acid that is the catalyst in this process or is there some other property of ascorbic acid that does this?
Where does rye come into this?
Ascorbic acid (AsA) is a weak acid typically dosed at 0.01% (bakers %). If for example you added acetic (which has a similar strength to ascorbic) acid at this dose it wouldn't have the same effect.
"wouldn't it be the acidic element of ascorbic acid that is the catalyst in this process"
In a word, No. AsA is a powerful anti-oxidant and quite unstable. It is rapidly oxidised to dehydroascorbic acid (DHA) in the presence of oxygen which in conjunction with naturally occurring enzymes causes the oxidation of gluten bonds.
The strengthening of gluten by acid is an indirect process and different acids have different effects on dough. Only a small amount of acid is optimal for gluten. Too much will partially dissolve it.
Acidification of rye bread is done to help block the naturally occurring and abundant amylase enzymes which rapidly breakdown starches.
I grind wheat (on demand), and use the flour immediately. It is my understanding that it is most nutritious if used right away.
Doesn’t aging fresh ground flour cause oxidation? Are the affects similar to using AA?
Dan
Hi Dan.
Yes and Yes.
Certainly if you are using fresh ground flour then that will work against you in terms of attaining dough height / volume. Ascorbic acid will go some way to help alleviate this.
An SD starter at the right level of maturity will contribute to oxidation, it depends on the redox potential of the starter.
How do you know that you have too much acid in a starter, causing the gluten to degrade/dissolve? Is there a way to test this or is it only by feel and observation?
I think the simplest way is to taste and smell it. If it tastes mild with just a hint of sharpness/acidity then I think it is good to go. If it smells/tastes strongly sharp/sour then I would be wary.
But bear in mind that starters do tend to build up some acid if not refreshed every day, when kept in the fridge for example.
That's how I store mine. I refresh it weekly and then build up the levain for breadmaking in 2-3 builds. I think it's important to do this at the correct temperature which I believe is around 27C.
It's the taste of that final levain that is important to the breadmaking.
I also think that a stiff starter (56% hydration in my case) helps to reduce acid build up; others will disagree!
Lance
If the taste and smell is mild, but there is degredation of the gluten after just 6-8 hours in the refrigerator, is there something other than acid build up that may be causing it?
Lance
Final proof, though starter has more exaggerated behavior than normal, faster rise, higher rise and bulk proofing is much faster than before
80% KA Bread Flour, 20% whole grain wheat/rye/spelt/buckwheat or a combination (KA, Bob's or Arrowhead Mills)
Hydration from 70-75% (depending on the recipe) used
Recipes vary: have tried several from using 10g, 20g of starter making a stiff preferment for a 24 hour sit, or a soft, 100% hydrated starter, sometimes hydrate flours an hour or so before adding starter, delay salt addition, have tried kneading fully at the beginning, have tried S&F every 30 minutes for 2 up to 4 hours, shape and proof either on the counter for around 2 hours (almost doubled and passes the poke test, results in attractive, though very mild loaf) or refrigerate, bake in CI Dutch oven or clay cloche in hot oven
Degraded gluten: Shaped loaves, refrigerated (36-38 degrees), dough texture changes to a soft, mush, fails the poke test, spreads when turned out for baking, dome drops when scored, little or no oven spring, results in a flat, tough textured bread. Surprisingly though, the crumb looks pretty good, with most of the puffy airpockets moved to the edges. The base is flat (not curved upward at the edges) and the bread shape is more of a pyramid, not a dome.Crust is thick and tough. This is after only 6 hours refrigeration. The longer I refrigerate, the more exaggerated these behaviors are.
Starter is 35 +/- years old and I have always been able to retard dough for 18-24 hours and get a magnificent loaf, good oven spring and flavor was lovely. It's only turned quirky over the last couple of months.
Are you saying that you can make a good loaf if you don't refrigerate?
It "looks" good and makes an attractive loaf, but it has little to no sourdough flavor.
What levain percentage do you add to the dough and how do you build that levain up from the starter?
And how is your starter stored and refreshed?
Lance
Thanks, Lance. I keep a stiff starter refrigerated: 20g starter:100g flour:35g water. I allow it to rise for a couple of hours and refrigerate it. Depends on the recipe on how much starter I use, but I use the same 1:5 starter to flour and adapt the hydration based on what the recipe asks for. When my refrigerated supply starts running low or it's been over a week I refresh my starter on the counter with a feeding or two at 12 hour intervals.
That starter seems very dry - it's only 35% hydration! I'm surprised you can actually mix it. I would say 50-60% is the normal range. I go for 56%.
I also don't think that 2 hours is long enough to refresh a 1:5 starter.
Lance
Yes, the hydration is reduced before storing it in the refrigerator. It is 100% hydrated when fed on the 12 hour schedule, once or twice, before storing in it's low hydration form. It's like playdough. It mixes well with water before being used for a preferment or regular starter.
Okay, thank you!
Well, what I would do is perform some serial refreshments on the starter: 1:2 @ 56% hydration. Flour mix 70% BF/30% wholewheat to give some nutrients. Five hours at 27C or overnight at 24C.
Repeat several times and try baking again.
Lance
Will try that! Appreciate your time and knowledge!
If my starter is already too acidic or has too low a pH, will the Vitamin C help or hinder my gluten breakdown?
makes yest work faster and longer. Also found this.....Industrial bakers categorize ascorbic acid as a flour 'improver' or dough conditioner. In the presence of oxygen, ascorbic acid becomes an oxidising agent and the 'improvements' to which it contributes include: Strengthened gluten. Greater loaf volume. It can also improve elasticity. I think it is the only additive allowed in most organic flours around the world. Even the French allow it in their baguette flours as a standard ingredient.
Not much need for it in SD breads though as the acid in the SD does the pretty much the same things.
I am an industrial Baker, I use Ascorbic acid everyday.
It used at less than 100ppm and is completely destroyed in the baking process. To achieve such low ratios you will have to use a carrying agent such as soy flour to dilute your capsules. This will be a difficult process and you would be much better off sourcing a bread improver which will also contain emulsifiers such as SSL and probably amylase enzymes.
In the presence of oxygen ascorbic acid reduces into dehydroascorbic acid which then oxidizes the glutens sulphydryl groups forming disulphide bonds and thereby strengthening the network.
In the process you get better gas retention and a much softer finer crumb.
This is great for short ferments but will create chaos in a long ferment as the dough over matures.
I have been crushing the Vitamin C pill into dust using a Mortar and Pestle. Since I use a single gram in 1kilo of flour a 1000mg Vitamin C tablet works perfectly. I incorporate the AA (using a wisk) into the dough water that has the Levain thoroughly pre-mixed within.
Does this method seem viable or would you suggest an alternate method?
You wrote, “This is great for short ferments but will create chaos in a long ferment as the dough over matures.” - Please take a look at the image in the initial post. It was fermented for 16.5 hours @ 77F. The dough was turned out at that time and the pre-shape and shape was very strong, considering the extended BF. My limited experience seems to indicate differently. Although I’m not sure what “chaos” means in your statement. Your reply is appreciated. I am very interested to learn.
Dan
It's very interesting for me to hear of you using AA like this, and at such high concentrstions- 1000ppm!
Have you tried using 1/10th of your tablet?
It's worth noting that the AA is competing with your creatures in your levain for oxygen. This could be partially the reason it remains successful at high concentrations.
If you have an autolyse stage in your recipe this is when I suggest you should be adding the AA.
The chaos I mentioned is in regard to over maturing. Does your dough seem over mature? Over elastic? Does the resulting loaf now have rounded edges? Does dough tear easily when handled? Is the resulting crumb texture crumbly? It is likely that although your dosage is extreme, the actual oxidation occurring is relatively low due to adding it directly to your levain.
let know more about your process- ferment times etc, is this a no time dough style sour? What sort of protein content is your flour?
The only benefit I can see for a sour like yours is much shorter fermenting times and increased product height, have you noticed this?
As to not tasting it, you won't as it is destroyed during baking(and the reason it does not need to be labeled on Chorleywood Bread Process you see in stores)
Definitelt experiment with concentrations.
Have you tried using 1/10th of your tablet? - No, the only dose I have used is 1g per 1000g. It works so well that I never did experiment with other percentages.
If you have an autolyse stage in your recipe this is when I suggest you should be adding the AA. - No, I mix everything at once and start the bulk fermentation.
The chaos I mentioned is in regard to over maturing. Does your dough seem over mature? Over elastic? - By over mature, do you mean dough degredation? After baking many of these loaves, I have seen my fare share of degraded (shredded) doughs (no added AA). The dough with AA remains fairly strong considering the extended warm fermentation. “Over elastic?” - When you ask over elastic, I am confused. It has been my experience that weak and degraded doughs are not elastic at all. It may be that I need some clarification on this one. Maybe I need to learn something I don’t know.
Does the resulting loaf now have rounded edges? - I don’t understand this question. I bake free form loaves.
Does dough tear easily when handled? - No, not at all
Is the resulting crumb texture crumbly? - Not that I remember. I’m reasonably sure, it’s no.
let know more about your process- - Mix dough (flour, water, salt, 2% (flour fermented) Levain) ; Ferment @ RT 5hr then 1 S&F, Ferment @ RT additional 11hr : turn out dough, preshape then shape : proof @ RT until 75% proofed, then continue proofing in frig @ 38F for 12- 24 hr : score cold and bake @ 460F covered for 20 min and 425 convection uncovered for 10-15 min. is this a no time dough style sour? Definitely not no time dough, it ferments a total time of 18-19.5 hr @ warm temps. What sort of protein content is your flour? 12.5% -
The only benefit I can see for a sour like yours is much shorter fermenting times and increased product height, have you noticed this? - No, my purpose for AA is to increase the dough’s ability to tolerate an extended fermentation at warm temps. It doesn’t appear to rise faster, but it definitely rises higher. I estimate a good 20-25% higher.
Dan
Me again,
When I talk about dough maturity I am not talking about gluten degradation.
Think about as you develop dough you are uncoiling the gluten and stretching it out into long strands that all bond together in a ordered fashion, giving it the viscoelastic properties. You now have a nice mesh of gluten, but as it sits more bonds continue to form in not so beneficial locations. As this happens the dough slowly becomes more and more elastic and less extensible. This makes it more prone to rupturing= difficulty handling, and tearing during oven spring. It's the opposite of what your rest period achieves and his highly accelerated with added oxidizing agents.
It will lead to internal structure of large cells and a crumbly, open crumb. In my usual sandwich bread this is a very negative thing. However, I can see this could been seen as beneficial in something like a sour dough if handling is still OK.
As to allowing you to extend your ferment, I can see this could be working as you now have a lot more bonds to break down.
NZB, you wrote, “as it sits more bonds continue to form in not so beneficial locations. As this happens the dough slowly becomes more and more elastic and less extensible. This makes it more prone to rupturing= difficulty handling, and tearing during oven spring. It's the opposite of what your rest period achieves and his highly accelerated with added oxidizing agents.” -I think I nderstand now. Check out the windowpane after fermenting 16.5 hr @ 78F.
You wrote, “However, I can see this could been seen as beneficial in something like a sour dough if handling is still OK.” -That appears to be the case for me.
You wrote, “As to allowing you to extend your ferment, I can see this could be working as you now have a lot more bonds to break down.” -Maybe the image below will reveal something to you. The dough was turned out of the tub and is lying upside down. The gluten strands that were stuck to the bottom of the tub are visible.
Thanks for taking the time to help. I appreciate your interest...
Dan
I found this article which explains a little bit about the mechanism of how ascorbic acid works. It also discusses some of the other chemicals involved in bread making - both the natural ones and the additives.
Most home bakers that use ascorbic acid vastly overdose it, possibly with negative effect. I think the maximum dose used commercially is 200ppm or 0.2g per 1kg flour, so Dan is overdosing but is in the right ballpark.
I have occasionally tried ascorbic acid myself, but I'm not convinced it's ever improved my loaves.
Lance
like Dave at sourdough ,com here
https://sourdough.com/blog/ascorbic-acid.
I think is just not needed to make a great oaf of SD bread.or any bread really except 1 kind. If you are making Wonder bread then it is a required ingredient as are about 15 other dough improvers. AA is not Vitamin C according to Dave but it is a part of Vitamin C.
Once you get good a making bread you don't need dough improvers but I do want to replicate the bread I grew up on and my dad made for years - the greatest, most consumed bread in America of all time -Wonder Bread so I will need some. I still love that bread and you still get with smoked meats in KCMO where they still make it like always. They also bought out all the going bankrupt great SD bakeries in SF like Larraburu, Columbo, Parisan and several others and then went bankrupt themselves - Twice:-) As a libertarian I really could care less what others put in their bread and more power to them it's none of my business so long as they don;t tell me what to put in mine and force me to eat theirs!
Let me chime in to say I have used Ascorbic Acid with my home milled wheat for years - though in very small quantities. If I read nzbaked correct, 100 ppm is the upper limit, which is 10 grams per 100,000, 1 gram per 10,000.
I usually use around 1/16 tsp per 600 grams, so I wanted to see if in fact, my use was too high.
I was doing the math, but realized I wasn't sure whether the ppm was by weight or by volume. I just did some searching and it said the ratio should be around 20 to 30 ppm by weight (suggested .2 grams per 10,000 grams of flour) . http://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/ascorbic-acid/
I just weighed it and 1/16 tsp is .31 grams, according to my scale. Doing some math, .31 to 600 grams, is the same as 5 grams to 10,000 grams, so I am about 5 times over the maximum, and about 20 times the recommended. It also says that AA is best used in 2 hour ferments - yet I regularly do bulk ferments with very low innoculations for 8 hours or more.
As happens with us home millers, I am now left to wonder whether I should greatly reduce the AA, or are the suggestions all based on commercial white flour, and that home milled wheat can take a higher amount of AA.
.
I suppose you could wonder about it. I did too, for a while. Then I realized several things. I am not attempting to create an enduring masterpiece. If I don't chew it up fast enough I'll have to throw it out when the little blue-green dots show up. I'm not attempting to give a faithful recreation of authentic methods used by bakers in ………(fill in the blank with your favorite era or location). I am not offering my bread in any commercial venue therefore I am not subject to any rules or regulations imposed from any authority other than She Who Must Be Obeyed and so far she's happy. Even if what I'm doing is unnecessary it is a part of the routine that seems to be working for me now. Therefore I adhere to the first principle of optimistic progression - i.e. if it ain't broke don't fix it. While I am perfectly willing to accept the metaphorical sacredness of bread I ain't inclined to support any Inquisition focused on a dogma that demands conformity. Yeah, if it ain't broke I ain't gonna fix it.....and you shouldn't either if it's working for you.
Barry, since I don’t know what I don’t know (he -he), I understand I used way over the recomendation. But what can I say, my breads are better than the ever! I guess I could try reducing the amount. But I can’t imagine better results. Maybe I’ll be surprised.
Now I guess I’ll really get blasphemous! The flour (Morbread) I use already contains small amounts of AA :D
I’m not sure if KA BF contains AA, but it also improved my results in a noticeable way. My choice flour for the bake mentioned is Morbread by Grain Craft Milling.
It is possible that in complete ignorance I did the “wrong” thing, but I got a great result. I published this tip with the hopes that inquisitive others might try it and test it out for themselves. If the results of those that try it are not good, that would be of interest also. You know... “the truth shall set you free”
Dan
I appreciate the input from NZBaker. I find his post informative.
Dab, I’m by no means scientific. I tried comprehending the article mentioned in Lance’s post. As I read through it, one word kept coming to mind. “Whaaat, whaat, & what”? I wished I had the brain power :)
The last of the three breads I baked using your formula and instructions (you saw that post) used AA.
Unless I learn something detrimental to using AA (like unhealthy, cancer causing, etc) I will continue to use it. Guys like me need all the help we can get ;-)
Dan
As far as I am concerned, you can bake and eat anyway and anything you want. Me and you are good <LOL>
said, your bread is your bread and you can do what ever you want with it and I will not care one iota. If you want help I will do my best to give it but you can take my advise and use it or not and I won't care about that either:-) Life is too short to worry about these things that are not worth worrying about.
The one thing I learned in Nam is - If it isn't going to kill you real dead right now, you probably shouldn't worry about it. But, if you are going to be real dead, real quick, you better be paying close attention to what you are doing and who you are doing it with. Since then, some 45 years later, I haven't worried about anything.and don't plan to ever worrying about anything ever again either.
I figure death will sneak up on me, in my even further weakened, physical state than I am now, and kill me off before I even know I'm about to be dead. No sense worrying right at the end anyway right? That would make a real good tombstone verse.
Death snuck up quietly and killed him quick, before he knew it. He couldn't care less about anything now, just like always. No worries ever or ever after. A great way to live and a better way to die.
Now it is copyrighted. Never thought I would get into the Tombstone Business so late in life:-).
It has been alluded to throughout this thread, but just to make it clear to casual readers, you need to read the label on your flour. It likely already has ascorbic acid and malt (or protease) in it, so be careful how much more you add. If your dough gets really shiny, sticky and slack at any point, it is probably past the point of peak fermentation (or the protein and starch components have been pretty much 'digested'). This is an unscientific answer, as I'm not a scientist, but I sooo appreciate the participation and knowledge sharing of the scientists on this site. Amazing bunch of people!
Oh, and the philosophers. Thanks dab... :)
Here's another link about ascorbic acid - hopefully easier to understand than the last one! Interestingly not recommended for long time dough.
It's difficult to find out how much ascorbic acid is in flours that declare it on the label (and I think they have to). For some reason the specifications of flour are treated like state secrets by the millers - at least in the UK.
I suspect it's probably quite low - I'm guessing maybe about 20ppm? Nothing like the Chorleywood 200ppm (or Dan's 1000ppm).
Lance
That's great information!
Wendy
This article is much easier on the brain :)
I don’t know what to say, Lance. My experience (over a dozen bakes) doesn’t line up with everything I read in the article. I’m not claiming the training or intelligence of the author. The claim of tight crumb - see image below. The claim of not being viable for long ferments - the image of the crumb below fermented for 18.5 hr @ 77F and an additional 16 hr @ 38F. Success is hard to ignore :)
Maybe it’s similar to the “experts” adamantly claiming, “that thing will never fly”. They where discussing the concept of a helicopter. I guess the guy who came up with the idea was too ignorant to realize it was impossible. :)
Why not throw caution to the wind and try it for yourself? Let us know how things go.
Dan
The proof of the pudding is in the eating! and the looking, 'cos that looks good! So yes, Dan, if it works for you and at that rate, why not?
Personally, I am going to persevere without it. My bread may not be perfect (what home baker thinks theirs is?) but I think I have enough variables knocking around without introducing another one.
Lance