Some slap and folds and a save
Being the neat and tidy freak that I am my preferred gluten development technique is stretch and folds in the bowl. This week Carole and I are doing Ian's Broa di Milho. His delicious take on this traditional Portuguese Corn Bread. One of my favourite recipes.
Everything went swimmingly well until the shaping. For some reason my technique went down the drain and ended up with a mess after it started to stick everywhere. What to do?
Now while i avoid the slap and fold when I can I often resort to it when saving a dough. So after a brief panic started the slap and folds. Eventually it came together and while my strength was in tatters my dough was holding itself together and looked better than me by this stage. No strength left I opted to dump it into the silicone pouch rather than carry on with the more "artisanal" approach.
While the pouch does support the dough it was still high hydration and it will spread outwards rather than upwards. So what started off as a boule, at the end of the proofing, it ended up elongated and filled out the bottom half of the bowl like pouch.
Didn't score it and put it in a preheated oven hoping for the best. What a nice surprise! The oven spring was excellent and the natural scoring is better then I could have done.
So this dough has had stretch and folds, bulk ferment, slap and folds then straight into shaping and a final proof. While I didn't keep any the bubbles from the bulk ferment it still had time to develop flavour. Hopefully the slap and folds has given me a nice enough crumb and while today we tend not to de-gas completely at one time it was the standard and everything you got crumb wise was from the final proof.
It's now cooling. Here's hoping.
Looks good despite your travails and like you slap and fold is not my thing - too much rhythm involved - on your Bread, I love corn bread so must try it...
While it's not my preferred method, on very wet dough, it is the superior method. When I do them my bread always has great oven spring.
Highly recommend this recipe. Don't use what is called cornflour in the UK but rather cornmeal or fine polenta. Cornflour is just starch and is used as a gravy thickener.
I have loads of coarse cornmeal at home which I use to make a polenta and pumpkin seed bread - make it for the market and it’s the most popular using 30% polenta and 30% toasted seeds
Nice result, and I look forward to the crumb photo. As for the slap-and-folds, how messy was it at that stage of the process? I have never tried slap-and-folds (for the reason you avoid them), but perhaps I might give them a try sometime. How much counter space do you recommend? Do you use any flour on the countertop?
When all started to go south I was hoping for a semblance of a loaf just so I don't walk away with nothing. This was a nice surprise for me too.
I'd do slap and folds more often if it wasn't for my OCD when it comes to cleanliness and tidiness. But at that stage it was more what is there to lose?
I'd say slap and folds is great for those very high hydration doughs. It needs to be if a certain hydration for them to be effective. Think around 75% hydration and higher for an all bread flour dough.
Normally you'd use no flour at all. There was some on my bench already after the attempt at shaping but normally non. You don't actually need too much space. My space is limited and I managed all the same.
At that stage it had to go sticker before it came back together again. But once it did the dough was very strong. If done from the beginning it should just strengthen up! It takes some time and energy but it is a very good technique. Best oven spring with very high hydration dough comes from slap and folds.
I'm also not a fan of slap and folds, too messy and I prefer to be gentle with my dough :)
But looks like you got a fine loaf out of it! Hopefully you'll be pleased with the inside too!
Happy baking Abe
Ru
I'm flabbergasted! Every one a gem.
Perhaps slap and folds might make more of an appearance now.
Thank you Ru.
What an interesting save, Abe. I’m going to try to remember this one. So slap and fold then into the Lekue?
I am forever amazed at the number of different breads you bake. I don’t know how you manage it.
Can’t wait the see the crumb. Please try to describe the flavor. I mentioned to “gillpugh” last night how I hope there will be a technology invented so we can taste via the Internet. He replied, “ I don't think it will be long before I will be able to lick my iPad and taste what I am seeing” That cracked me up :-)
Dan
For breads I need to 'save'. Throw in the lekue and hope for the best type of thing. Rather like how one might treat an over fermented dough. Throw it in a pot and hopefully when you take the lid off a miracle has occured.
When you slap and fold it really strengthens up and the technique sort of makes a round shape with a tight skin. So after the last slap and fold I sprinkled with flour and rounded it into a neat boule and threw it into the lekue.
This is a lovely recipe. Don't know if you've ever tried cornmeal in a Sourdough bread. The flavour is so nice. A lovely tang. Not sour but rather a nice flavourful tang that cornmeal naturally has when done as a sourdough.
Thank you Dan.
I'll have to update my profile Dan - I'm a girl not a guy - well perhaps not a girl, I've too many years on me!!!
Very surprised. After not keeping any of the hard earned gas bubbles during the bulk ferment the crumb is very nice.
Very pleasant tang. A flavoursome bread with a gentle tang.
Crumb looks good to me. Did you fully proof the dough or did you bake early?
The score came out well, especially considering the slack dough.
Dan
Is all down to the gluten development technique. I think different techniques will present a different crumb structure. So while I did fully de-gas the slap and folds does add air bubbles into the dough. I'm no expert so hopefully someone will come along to confirm or do away with this idea. It's a very uniform crumb.
I tried to time it well but I think about 20 minutes under.
You wrote, “Didn't score it and put it in a preheated oven hoping for the best. What a nice surprise! The oven spring was excellent and the natural scoring is better then I could have done.”
Is the bread imaged on the very top of this post unscored? That’s hard to believe it came out so uniform.
Dan
I decided that after the save I'd be more hands off. The lekue helps it with support and I also thought because it's quite wet and slack it wouldn't split too much. Worked a treat.
That photo is post unscored. It opened up just right in the lekue.
The crumb actually looks really airy and soft. Looks like you got way more than just the decent loaf you were hoping for!
The slap and folds have given me the lightest crumb for this bread to date. This has taught me something about handling a dough and the resulting crumb. The structure is different.
Thank you Ru
I can’t imagine doing slap and fold after BF - I’d be too scared but for you it has worked, amazing! I find I get a better dough if I slap & fold just at the start, but my kitchen windows always get splattered with fine white spray? so always need cleaning!! Trevor’s more gentle approach is my preferred way but now a combination works better for me. Awesome that you got such a great loaf this way!
Leslie
Up until now I've used this way to regain strength in the dough when it's proving difficult to handle and there's no other way to save it. While this worked rest assured at the beginning is the best way :)
I should stop shying away and employ slap and folds more often. Instead of just as a last resort as a save. It works!
that looks yummmy! what a great save - did you use a lekue silicone bread maker?
Yes. When I was having trouble with the baking due to issues with a mini oven for a while I resorted to using the lekue. By and large I've found a good way around that and mainly bake loaves freestanding now after proofing in a banneton. But my lekue is always on standby for times like this.
I had forgotten all about this recipe. Yours turned out great for all the abuse it took. I love slap and folds and you can do as many as you want the first half to 1 hour after mixing and no worries with crumb problems but the gluten gets developed quickly to hold in all of the gas better that is produced later on. I really need to get Lucy to do one of these things just to see her swiveling that SS bowl between her 4 paws while laying on her back:-)
Well done and happy baking Abe
I bet that'd work too :)
It did take some abuse but it's a nice loaf at the end of the day. The crumb is hugely different to the typical Broa di Milho crumb I normally get. Nice all the same.
Thank you Dabrownman.
for Ian had the.... wet a SS bowl, pour out the water put in some flour to coat the bowl, drop in 1/4 of the dough and swirl it around for 20-30 seconds to shape it and than dump it onto parchment to final proof - it better work because Lucy is doing it on the next loaf:-) That sounds like as much fun as slap and folds.
Tried it this afternoon (with trepidation) and it's very cool and loads of fun! Lucy will love it! (Disclaimer: I used a glass bowl ;-) ; for the first piece of dough, I did fill the bowl, but for the second piece, just misted it. Lots less water wasted.)
Also easiest cleanup of any bake I've undertaken (there may have been all of 12!).
Enjoy!
Carole
And that's my preferred way of doing this bread which has worked great until now. For some reason the dough was misbehaving. Interestingly enough the crumb is totally different in comparison. The slap and fold has resulted in a much lighter crumb. It is fun and looking forward to you bake.
Had trouble loading onto new baking steel, so probably lost a good bit of oven spring while learning how to jiggle off the peel. Can't wait to cut into one tomorrow morning. Next batch will be scaled up slightly, I think. Thanks so much for the formula!
I'm sure you'll love it. It is an enjoyable bread to make (normally) and a new technique to-boot. See you in the messages :)
Putting the dough on parchment paper and then placing that on your peel will make the oven transfer a breeze.
Dan
I had the loaves proving on the parchment-covered peel, but by the time they were ready to load, the parchment had dampened slightly, which meant that the slide I was anticipating didn't happen.
Actually, I think my next test will be placing a covered roaster on the hot baking steel -- even easier! What think?
I am a huge fan of lightweight covers. I no longer use cast iron.
You can take your hand and grab the parchment from the back. Then easily pull the dough off the peel and onto the oven deck. Even if the parchment paper has gotten wet. Parchment will eliminate the need to shake the dough off.
If you think there may be a problem with the dough sticking to the parchment, you can slide it off the paper after the cover has been removed.
Dan
at around 4:30.
My bowl was probably about the same size as her's, but with less than 500g of dough; it swirled.
Enjoy :-D
Can you post it again Carole?
Lets try that again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T4e4xftbeE
At about 4:30 on this one; you have a different one in Messages!
We seem to have some different techniques in the traditional recipes. This is a shape and bake recipe. Can't see much final proofing. In the video you sent me it's done as a flat-ish bread anyway. Eaten with herring. These are loaves but after the ferment it is quickly swirled around in the flour and baked.
The recipe includes the admonition "but be careful not to deflate the dough" and then continues with "carefully place [the dough] in the floured bowl and swirl it around 15 - 20 seconds until it starts to get roundish."
My questions are: (1) is the swirling done by hand (and if not then what tool provides the assist) and (2) how is the swirling done so as to create a shape and not result in a loss of gas?
This seems like a neat recipe to try, but I wanted to clarify the swirling aspect before any attempt.
Hi Watertown,
Yes, it's done by hand, and you do lose a little gas, but still wind up with a puffy blob -- it'll never stand tall enough to be a ball.
However, due to time constraints, I had retarded the dough for about 20 hours. With the dough still in its bowl, I sprinkled the top, my dough scraper and my hands with flour and divided directly in the bowl, rather than on the bench. I think the fact that it was still cold helped a great deal.
The divided pieces sit on the bench while you moisten/flour your spinning bowl. Using one hand and a dough scraper, pick up a piece of dough, lower it gently into the bowl. And then I started gently (because I was scared to death) swirling the bowl, saw that disaster hadn't struck and picked up a bit more speed. I'm not sure how long I did it, 20-30 seconds seems a bit short to me (and I was having too much fun). But you'll know when to stop. Then gently tip your bowl over to release it, re-mist and re-flour your bowl and carry on.
You'll love it!
Oh, btw, taste and texture are really nice -- that never hurts.
I think the real story here is that you were able to save the bread because you have a wide and deep body of experience and accumulated wisdom that helped you make decisions on the fly - even ones you weren't wanting to. It's that accumulation of experience, understanding and perspective that helps us adapt. And in your case of this bread - succeed. Well done, again!
Not fun while it's touch and go but very satisfying when you realise it's all going to work out well in the end.
On the plus side I'm less wary of performing slap and folds now. Perhaps i'll employ this technique from the beginning with wet doughs.
Try this recipe. It's very tasty.
I wish my bread looked like this. My fails are just pancakes and I'm just not brave enough to do what you did!
seize the moment!
My way of thinking is what's there to lose? If I don't do anything i'll end up with a flop. If I try I might get something better out of it. The only way is up :)
Ooooh, that crumb looks simply delicious! I love using cornmeal; the flavour and texture are very nice. Here in Canada we can get corn flour that is actually finely milled whole corn, in addition to corn meal (various textures) and corn starch (the purified white stuff that is called cornflour in the UK). Lots of options!
I do like your adventurous spirit and unwillingness to give up on a recalcitrant lump of dough. :) I'm not sure I would have thought to start slap & folds at that stage. I'd be more likely to dump it in a bowl and just let it sulk for a while (perhaps a long while) until I was ready to face it again. Time sometimes accomplishes miracles with bread dough too! But that assumes one has time to do that. I prefer not to spackle my kitchen and myself.
Wendy
If I try this bread, I’d like to mill my corn at home. What kind of grind am I looking for? I have never used corn in a bread.
Dan
It's still grainy but not too coarse. Rather like fine semolina.
Hope this helps Dan and you can add cornbread to your list of delicious treats.
Me too! Even putting some in a levain build brings out great flavour. Sourdough cornbread is delicious.
When I've got nothing else to lose plus throwing in a stubborn streak this is what you get :) Sometimes it can't be saved but every so often one can get a better result.
This is the lightest cornbread crumb I've gotten.
Hi,
You get over a dozen different recipes of corn bread in Portugal, depending on the region, but always up north - down south we're more into wheat and rye.
But there is one step that is common in all corn bread recipes that we call "escaldar a massa" which is to parboil the corn meal. And this is usually done the night before and let the dough rest overnight. On the next day you add the rest of the ingredients (wheat flour, rest of the water, yeast/SD).
the crumb is wet and with very few holes in it - it's a very "dense" bread.
and you do not score it. it should look siomething like this:
if anyone interested I can gather a few recipes and post them here.
regards
Fausto
That bread looks delicious and I love sourdough cornbread. Broa di Milho is very tasty! but I've only tried this recipe. A traditional recipe would be most welcome and I look forward to some recipes you suggest.
Is this one you made yourself?
Love the look of that loaf!
No Lechem, this one was not baked by me. I seldom forget to take pictures..., sorry.
But here's a picture of a rye batch of a few weeks ago plus a sardine "bola" from last weekend: somebody mentioned herings in a post here, but you should know that at this time of the year we mostly eat Sardines.
That's a lovely basket of bread. And that rye bread looks like the broa di milho's I've seen in videos and how it's eaten. I've just been discussing how the way it's eaten will bring out the best in the bread. Like semolina bread with olive oil.
It seems like cornmeal and rye are the more common types of grain. I love both!
Lechem,
Traditionnaly, when baking corn breads bakers would reserve a couple of breads where they would punch about 6-8 holes (finger tip) and drip some olive oil on each hole just before baking.
Focaccia?
I'd do the swirling in the bowl then pat it out, poke the holes and drizzle oil?
Just shape it on the bowl, it will be roundish, then poke a few holes and drizzle Olive oil. When baking it naturally flatterns itself.
Thanks Fausto, I am very interested to see the recipes.
I plan to grind my corn at home. How should the corn be ground? I’m just learning about this bread from Lechem’s post.
Dan
you're both most welcome as I have learned a lot from your posts on other recipes :).
I will gather the recipes and post them for you.
Regarding grinding, I will ask a relative of mine owning a mill as I do not know - only that is very fine meal.
Just an old funny story: my grand mother was forbiden by her mother and law to do bread (back in those days you would bake home and for the week). The reason was that she was "secretly" adding either a little rye or corn (she preferred corn) to the dough. And a batch that was supposed to last a week would be gone by wednesday!!
So, if you add a little corn to pratically any recipe you will get a sweeter bread. And you don't need much. Same with rye, and in this case the bread lasts much longer.
Last sunday I decided (wisely) to give up the recipes and just do it like my grand mother was doing (I still helped her a few times on her last years). And I was amazed with the taste, the oven spring, everything. And again, the bread supposed to last a whole week is nearly gone.
A little cornmeal goes a long way. I found that out and agree with 100%.
LOL and it looks like your grandmother was in on this "secret" too :)
I'm thinking from what you describe is that we haven't tasted real Broa di Milho yet. We've used cornmeal in our breads with excellent results but now it's time for the real deal.
Looking forward Fausto.
to your recipes. I followed Abe's lead and made this a couple of days ago and really, really like it. Thanks for sharing!
As promised, hereafter a few portuguese cornbread recipes. Be advised that these doughs are hard to work and sticky.
Alto Minho’s Corn Bread
Prep:
Oporto Corn Bread
Trigamilha (a little easier to knead)
No scoring and no steam. For shaping please see video posted above. Dough should be smooth after kneading but will be "unworkable" after fermenting - this is why you'll need the bowl to shape it. If you want to skip the yeast be carefull as too much starter may afect flavour.
These breads are supposed to turn out with a dense and moisty crumb. This last recipe (Trigamilha) is not so moisty and with nicer ovenspring. As said, it's a hardworking bread (if you don't have a mixer you better be in shape!).
There's a very famous recipe, Broa de Avintes, but believe me you don't want to try this: kneading for 2 hours and baking for 3-4 hours. Its very dense, dark and wet (200gr corn + 200gr whole rye + 260gr water + 3.5gr salt).
For home milling choose a coarse grade. We use the T scale in Portugal whereas T65 is all purpose flour usually used for bread, T55 is finer for pastry. The whole flours are usually T175.
happy bakings
For all your time, help and advice. Three recipes for us to try and I can't wait :)
I may start with the 3rd one as you say it's easier than the first two so I think that's a good place to start.
Have some questions though.
Trigamilha (a little easier to knead)
Is it 20g salt?
Prep:
Is this for all 3 recipes?
There is no final proofing? Just shape and bake?
If I choose to miss out the yeast what am I looking for during the bulk ferment to know it is ready?
This is my next bake for this weekend. Wish me luck :)
I’m with you on door number 3, Abe. Rats, I wanted to start right now but I don’t have enough Levain ready. I’m off to start a build...
Dan
Thanks for the recipes, Fausto. It is nice to have something authentic to work with.
And the recipes are indeed authentic: it was a really nice research done by french specialist Mouette Barboff that edited this book "Bread in Portugal" and has recipes from north to south and islands included.
The Trigamilha recipe states only 2gr of salt. I know its very little...
The preparation, especially the parboiling part, is the same for all recipes.
No final proofing - just like you saw on the video, shape in the bowl and straight into the oven.
It will be tricky to skip the yeast as these are "heavy" doughs. Anyway, it doesn't rise much during fermentation (i guess you can have a glimpse of the fermented dough on the video above: looking nearly the same as just after kneading :). Here really is a matter of trying out, but carefull as they're supposed to be sweet on the taste and the bitterness from sourdough, if too much, may not combine...
There was this baker writting exactly about this: they use a little starter (old dough) just to adjust the rustic taste - the rise is mainly left to the yeast. I suppose a combination of the two would be advisable. One last VERY IMPORTANT thing: the yeast mentioned is fresh, not dry, yeast. So it takes very little yeast. If you would go for dry yeast instead of the 15gr use 1 to 2gr max.
Curiosity on sourdough designations: we call massa velha or massa azeda, wich is literally old doulgh or sour dough. The starter we call it "isco", literally bait.
I wish you all the luck and most of all resilience. Promess to take some pictures on my batch this weekend. Lets see who's looking better - no photoshop allowed :)
That settles it. The Trigamilha is the first one I will try and i'll work my way through them.
That is interesting. The starter is a bit of old dough from the previous batch I assume. So for my starter build i'll try to build a starter in a similar way.
Probably best to do the first one with yeast and then if I chose to do without i'll know what the dough should be like.
Thank you once again and i'll be back with photos :)
Can't wait to see your Broa's
I'm also going to try Trigamilha. If not tonight, then on another bake in the very near future.
Much appreciate your sharing, it's most generous.
Carole
Abe, I think you need to correct your post. You probably copied the instructions from the recipes by Fausto.
Change;
Prep. Corn + 350 to corn plus 500. I wouldn’t want to confuse others. I tried the 350 and it wouldn’t hydrate.
I copied the basic instructions that were for all of them and just attached it to the last one which of course the amounts will change according to the recipe.
so the method is the same not the amounts.
Will correct now...
Just add that extra boiling water Dan. And well spotted.
I know you told Lechem the salt was correct for the bottom bread. BUT...
I tried to look up Trigamilha on the web, but I can’t read the language. I can’t imagine eating bread with almost virtually no salt. Since the other 2 formulas call for 2% salt, I think I’ll have to follow my intuition and go 2%. If I’m wrong, I can hear the words, “O ye of little faith”. I like salt. I just hate to go against my new found friend :(
Is the percentage of salt so small because of the Salty sardines that are cooked on the top?
I will not be using sardines, this bake.
Dan
Hi Dan,
I did double checked the recipe when taking notes as it seems very little salt - but it is written so.
Now I was checking on a bread forum and there was this very similar recipe but with the 2% salt. It must be a printing error.
And you're right, unsalted bread is unedible!!
I believe that this dough will work just fine with sardines on top. :)
On the forum I mentioned above the guy does the bulk ferment for 3 hours, until the dough starts to crack on top: this may be of guidance for the fermenting.
will be back on monday with my baking photos.
regards
I decided to do the Trigamilha. I halfed the recipe for my first bake. I may regret it, but I went with 2% salt instead of the instructed 0.19%. I’m not using salty sardines on top. ...and I like my salt :)
I will continue to edit this post as the bake proceeds.
Below, the moderately course home ground corn is hydrated.
My Levain won’t be ready for an hour or so. I decided to hydrate (autolyse) mixing the water, corn, whole rye, and flour while waiting. This “dough” is very unique. Nothing like I am accustomed. Learning new things, expanding horizons.
Below, the dough is getting a 20 minute mix. The hook seems to be doing a very nice job kneading. This dough doesn’t have much gluten to develop, so keep that in mind when kneading. I choose to follow the instructions and kneaded for 20 min at a moderately slow speed. The Ankarsrum was very gentle and the dough mixed well.
Oven is pre-heating.
NOTE; I am unsure about the Bulk Ferment. The original instructions called for an hour, but Fausto said some BF for 3 (until it cracks on the top). Since the dough lacks much gluten, I’m not sure how to handle the fermentation. I used only 1 gram of instant dry yeast. NOTE; the whole recipe calls for 2 grams of IDY yeast.
I decided to split the time down the middle. I went with a BF @ 75F for the first hour and the final hour @ 84F. After 2 hr the dough didn’t look like much happened, but when I put wet hands on it, the gas was obvious. It never cracked open at any time during the bulk ferment.
The bread took much longer to bake than what I am accustomed to. I baked for 1 hr 15 min. At which time the internal temp was 109F.
The crumb is somewhat dense, but definitely not a brick. It is moist, but not wet. The moderately course cornmeal gives the crumb a nice bite, IMO. And the flavor of corn is pleasantly obvious. Unlike our sourdough breads that are great with butter alone, I think this breads needs something to go with it. Hey, it might even be good with peanut butter! I’m wondering about honey. I think with the right toppings this bread would shine.
OH! This bread needs salt. I went with 2% and the taste of salt is not obvious. I actually sprinkled a pinch of Truffel Salt on my buttered slice.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E5SGI4/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&th=1
I hate to shock Fausto, but maybe a little sugar in the dough next time? My southern roots are starting to show.
Conclusions and take-a-ways.
Use 2% salt
The instructed yeast was sufficient for a 2 hr BF. Don’t forget fresh yeast (15g full recipe) versus Instant Dry Yeast (2g full recipe). I might even omit the yeast and go all SD. My starter is not very acidic. Hopefully it won’t taint the flavor as Fausto cautioned.
Bake the heck out of that baby. This one took 1 hr 15 min. You don’t want wet bread. Check internal temperature. I’m guessing 208 - 210F or so.
The shaping method adds to the uniqueness of this cultural bread. Don’t let the shaping intimidate, it is very easy and straightforward.
Next time I think I will put a lot more flour into the wet bowl before tossing (shaping). The dough is slack and wet. It has a tendency to stick to the bowl. The flour would also give that authentic look, I think.
All-in-all, a very nice authentic bread. Nice corn/rye flavor in a substantial bread. This bread would feed the multitudes...
UPDATE: It has been a day since cut. To my surprise it is staling already. I hoped for a longer shelf life. If baked in the future, I think I would cut the loaf into slices all bread not eaten the first day and freeze most of it right away.
For my taste, it needs sweetness. I’d try adding a little brown sugar. The cream of corn also sounds delicious. I hate to lose the authenticity, though.
Dan
but I'm geting jealous as I can see you own a Ankarsrum!!! No representative in Portugal for these machines, so I'm kneading all my doughs by hand... No use for planetary mixers - already burned one out!
Check out this forum with a Trigamilha recipe so you can see how the dough is supposed to look like.
http://www.forumdopao.pt/showthread.php?tid=34
so I'll just post a pic:
I was under the impression that steam was not used. But in the image of the bread in the oven I notice 2 water bowls.
Do you recommend steam or not?
Thanks
Dan
Thank is the pic and all the help Fausto.
So I figure the starter is a piece of old dough from the last batch added for flavour and most of the leavening comes from the added yeast.
So what I've done is made a little piece of "dough" with flours, water, salt and starter. Allowed that to ferment and it's now in the fridge till tomorrow.
This was done to the exact same proportions for the Trigamilha I'm doing. This is not going to be a very easy dough to work with by hand. Do you have any advice when kneading by hand? It's going to be a challenge.
Another thing is, and this might be connected, is the wheat flour bread flour or whole-wheat flour? I used bread flour in the pre-dough.
Rereading Fausto, he says that if "you don't have a mixer, you'd better be in shape" and that set off a little alarm bell in my head.
Why do you say it's not going to be easy to work the dough by hand? Liquid? Sticky? Both? Is this going to be a slap-and-fold challenge?
Have a good day.
Liquid and sticky.
Because of the corn and rye, the dough contains very little gluten. It is not elastic at all. It flows. If I wanted to mix by hand, the Rubaud Method would be my first choice. It would require some endurance, but with breaks, I think it would be very doable. IMO, Rubaud kneading is very pleasant and extremely kind to the dough. Thank You Trevor!
Dan
Yes, I did wake up yesterday to the fact that this dough was going to be half corn.
Looking at your post, you mixed for 20 minutes, which means a lot of Rubaud if doing this by hand. Do you find that you feel it in the shoulder if Rubaud goes on for a long time? Or maybe I'm not putting the right body English on it.
Yea, I go for the burn. And I’m not talking about Bernie :)
If you sit down and hold the bowl low, between your legs, it makes it a lot easier on your shoulder. A heavy bowl also works much better. It doesn’t move around near as much.
Take a look at this short video. https://instagram.com/p/BfqcoEQhGZm/
Dan
I had tried it sitting with the bowl in my lap, but then realized that my tummy was probably warming the dough more than I wanted. I use a big glass bowl, which is plenty heavy if you need to hold onto it with one hand as you're doing in the video. Well, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Abe, I went with BF because I though the dough could use the gluten.
For hand kneading; did you see this?
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56475/slap-and-fold-and-save#comment-409955
Dan
It's confirmed as strong Bread Flour and 2% salt.
Recipe is IDY but one can use 20% starter instead if so wished. I rather think that if combined the starter is just for flavour but won't give it that longer shelf life.
Thanks for the link.
That's a very nice bake indeed! Your first time with Portuguese cornbread to-boot.
Can't wait for the crumb shot and taste report.
Any pointers and advice you have then please share.
Did you bake with steam in the end?
Congratulations Dan!
Sorry I dind't drew your attention to the fact that the shaping bowl has to have a lot of flour - you can see that on the video posted above (by Lechem I guess).
On the book I mentioned there were two bakers with identic recipes but one of them did mentioned steam use and the other didn't. Traditionaly, when baking on a wood fire oven, you don't use steam: after removing the ambers and ashes you sweep the oven floor with a wet cloth, and that's all. It cleans the oven and adds a little steam, but I believe it doesn't last long.
Another curiosity, but for the corn bread, not the trigamilha, is that on WFO you bake with the door open: you pull the ambers to the door as to keep a heat curtain but letting the steam out. If this dough was sticky and wet you can imagine the corn broa.
The fact it didn't crack on top during fermentation might be related with the good and long mixing you gave it - which in my opinion is good. I guess the yeast was adequate as it did rose well.
Your pictures are of great help for everybody trying this recipe as, like mentioned over and over, one has to follow the dough and not much the recipe: the kind of corn used and grind has great influence, the wheat used too, so there are a lot of factors to watch for.
Temperatures here rose by 15ºC on the last two days: I'll have a hard time cutting starter and yeast this weekend!
regards
and you're making me hungry again!
That crumb looks really nice, and I can just imagine the sweetness of the corn shining through.
Funny you should think in terms of sweet for topping, I'd be inclined to think salty cheese, tomatoes and olives, or grilled sardines and onion. Or even a BLT (gosh, I haven't had one of those in donkey's years!)
EDIT: or paired with a soup or chowder…
Aside from the additional flour in the bowl, is there anything you would do differently on the next round? Looks like you made a good call on the salt, and I shall follow your lead.
Thanks for your diligence and generosity.
And a perfect crumb. Lovely, Dan.
Does this make it into your list of go to breads?
I'm thinking tomatoes, onions and herring. Or try it with sardines in a tomato sauce.
Sorry to say, I’m still stuck on Teresa’s SFSD
that's not happy news. I'm sorry to hear that. I, too, thought that this would keep a few days. Good thing you halved the recipe!
?
had updated his baking post by saying that the loaf had already begun to stale.
From last week was still moist today when I had my last slice.
Might be because it was leavened more by the yeast.
I'm going for an all sourdough version.
And, like you, my immediate thought was that the IDY was the culprit. Can't wait for your all-SD version.
and your loaf looks wonderful! That was really, really quick!
So, did you steam?
What's it taste like?
Thanks for the blow-by-blow. That will be invaluable down the road.
Carole
Thanks. At 66 yo being a “now kid” sounds pretty good:)
I read steam and no steam. I decided to cover the loaf for 20 minutes with graniteware. Was I surprised to see it rose. The dough is wet and super slack. It takes a long time to bake. Mine went for an hour 15 minutes. Wet corn, I guess.
Tomorrow I plan to slice and upload images. I’ll edit the original post to keep things together and write up some “lessons learned”. All in all, I think the bake went smooth. We’ll have to get graded by Fausto to see how he evaluates it. Up until Abe’s bake I never knew this bread existed.
Dan
I didn't know this bread existed either, but it sure looks good!
and used 2g of yeast anyway? That's good to know; It rose beautifully. Can't wait to see the crumb and hear your description of the taste and texture.
I figured someone would catch that :) Carole wins the prize!
I actually used 1g IDY, but I thought it might confuse those that planned to bake the entire recipe. I think I’ll edit the post so as to avoid any more confusion.
I will be cutting the bread in an hour or so. Will post image and report the flavor.
Dan
but also easily confused. I don't think I'd've caught it if I weren't copying it out in my notebook and referring back to previous comments.
OK, so 1g of IDY.
On tenterhooks about your salt…
Carole, I’ll go cut it now and report back. I’ll be sure to mention the salt.
Standby.
Then to use dried yeast it'll be 5g.
If halving the recipe then 2.5g yeast is about the right amount.
I hadn't done the math (surprise, surprise) but just went by what Fausto had written if not using fresh yeast: 1 to 2g for the recipe, which Dan had halved. Which is why I was startled to see he'd written 2g. But it turns out he used only one, and your meticulous calculation shows that we can indeed use 2 for a half batch. (Looks like 1g worked just fine, though.)
But it'll be Saturday/Sunday.
Rest assured a plan is evolving.
he's got something up his sleeve!
Sticky and all! Love a challenge and think I will keep the salt and yeast at 2% each. Catch you later on the summer solstice bread challenge thread.
What do you think about a topping of horseradish/sour cream with smoked trout fillets? ...after baking...
I'm betting already that you will come up with your own gorgeous spin on this.
Topping sounds great, if not too much horseradish/sourcream, at least until you've tasted the crumb unadorned. But smoked trout? Yum.
would include spelt flour with a rye starter on Alto Minho’s Corn Bread.
Hi Mini,
Seems to me a nice flour combination. Just be ware not to let it ferment too long as it may get a bitter taste. This bread doesn't rise much during fermentation - and no proofing time: right into the oven after shaping, and shaping in a bowl with lots of flour. Takes a while to bake (60 min minimum) top dry the crumb. No steam.
regards
That's stupendous. Will you post step-by-step pix?
..and finally smoke my cheap mixer to death.
The Southern girl in me wants to add in a can of sweet corn (or fresh cut & wring out cob for starch and water...another time perhaps) and use bacon instead of sardines, or eat with bacon drippings. First authentic as can be, then experiment more!
I wonder what makes the loaf bitter if fermented too long. The corn? Wheat starter with corn? Dead instant yeast residue? Na. Curious how the all-sourdough loaf tastes. I do like a longer ferment on my whole flours... I think tossing the dough around in a bowl will come naturally as that is how I coat my "breaded" meat with bread crumbs. The bigger the bowl, the easier it is. Why coat the dough with just flour? For those wanting to experiment, try something else in the bowl. For the first loaf, I'm saving a little of the corn flour and adding a little salt.
Been working on sugarless cherry compote and low sugar jam lately, picked the gooseberry bush clean yesterday. Red currents also ripe, their berry juice burns like lemon juice on skin cuts and can substitute nicely in rye for an acid. Will dry the tiny ones and replant a better bush, one with larger berries. Yesterday, sitting on the ground between the berry bushes, the late afternoon sun backlit the red current berries against the dark green leaves. So beautiful. Little glowing clusters of ruby red gemstones.
Did a "Summer pinching" prune on my peach tree to thicken up the new branches. The one peach is not in danger. Next year should be a bigger crop. The tree seemed to tell me it wanted a prune so I looked it up, sure enough! It's a straight type potted dwarf that I planted a few yrs. ago on the sheltered south side of the house. It's smiling now.
So I drained a can of sweet corn and added the 50g or so water into the liquids. I didn't smoke my mixer, I ground it to a halt! Had to separate the mixer from the stand and hold it while the hooks mixed away. Pretty stiff stuff this dough. After tossing in the corn, the dough got softer and after a minute, could put it back on the stand and let it run for 8 minutes.
I did a half recipe of Alto Minha Corn Bread
300g corn meal
50g spelt flour the fine one with more carbs and less protein
150g rye flour also fine "white"
50g rye starter very ripe
350g water Split, 175g boiling on corn, 175g in the dough
10g salt
3 g instant yeast
Ground 80g corn meal with 1.5g salt for the shaping.
Following 30 min corn autolyse, 10 min mixing in machine, 1 hour bulk rise, baking after shaping in bowl with flour in dark star ceramic form slathered with bacon grease. In process... teaser photo:
IMG_1549.JPG
The shape just went, wow, needed more flour and ended up grabbing the AP to prevent sticking while flopping and flipping in the bowl. Got it into the form and waiting on the oven to finish preheating. The dough was very bubbly like a peaking starter and very soft! Tore half way through will tipping out into the floured bowl. I just scraped it out and piled it on top. Tried to take a few photos.
IMG_1552.JPG
Its rising like crazy and making up for any collapse. Smells wonderful. Went into the oven at 240°C ten minutes ago. It rises before your eyes like a soda bread. Fun!
we were supposed to bake together last week, and I gummed things up. So these are not Fausto's:
But I'm quite happy with the way these look.
Will try the trigamilha perhaps in midweek, I can't wait.
Looks very authentic with the floured crust and cracks.
Shaping the breads is kind of fun! Isn’t it?
Dan
I'm so bad at shaping, and this is just so forgiving!
And to think that this thread began only because an experienced baker decided not to throw out a bunch of (now obviously) usable dough. The story has evolved, enriched us all with additional recipes, and caused several other bakers already to bake some great bread.
This is the recipe that Fausto posted the photo from...
So a sourdough version will look like this:
At 1.2% the bakers yeast sounds like dried yeast
Salt is 2%
The rye is optional so if you wish for a stronger dough then make it 50% bread flour
The cornmeal is scalded by its own weight in boiling water and left to cool for 30 minutes. The remainder is cold water.
I've made a small batch of dough to be used as a starter for the main dough. Kneading by hand will be tough.
Bulk Ferment for 3 hours (?)
Steam the bread in a preheated oven at 230°C for 15 minutes then 75 min (?) at 200°C without steam.
Here is the webpage
And it looks like they use T65 flour, rather than the stronger T80; I should work up the nerve to try that.
Yes it looks like we're to bulk for 3 hours, or until the flour that we've spinkled overtop has begun to "crack" on the surface.
I wonder if their T65 had additives like ascorbic acid or malt: mine is has none and is less than 10% protein. Hmmm.
is a total of 1 1/2 hrs. (15+75min.)
is T80 stronger? I thought it would be more whole flour, perhaps not as finely ground. T65 is bread flour, no?
but it has only less than 10% protein, whereas the T80 -- in addition to having little bits in it -- has 11 (I need all the help I can get!). That said, Hester has gotten some beautiful bread with T65, so perhaps my bad experience has more to do with other factors than the flour.
When is your bake?
T65 is strong bread flour
https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/understanding-flour-types/
They list much higher protein content than what I can get:
my T65 has less than 10% protein et T80 less than 12, whereas they're saying T80 has 14… I will try another experiment on my next 1:2:3 bake with only T65, just to see where it gets me.
What say you?
T65 seems to be what we call bread flour and the numbering system is just how much ash % there is. Which means basically how much wholemeal is in there.
Since in the UK even our white flour isn't as white as French flours we don't have such a numbering system. Our flour is never fully white and it's never! bleached.
But everywhere I look it seems to be that T65 is the UK equivalent of bread flour and that should fall in the range of 12-13% protein.
and there is more protein in the outer bran layers... that's what makes it so confusing. Upping the protein doesn't equate with upping gluten. So one can have a high protein flour with little gluten. Wish the packages would be specific but if you take a good look at the protein spec. sheets on different grains you can guess at a lot of the gluten amounts while looking at the carbohydrate and fiber amounts.
OK, I grok that a higher level of protein does not necessarily equate higher gluten. But is it possible to have a low percentage of protein and still have a respectable level of gluten?
I shall photograph my different flour packages when I get home later, since I don't know how to extrapolate gluten amounts by reading carb and fiber amounts. Would you be able to help me? Or point me to a source that would?
Thanks alot,
Carole
i googled: spec sheet vital wheat gluten
I clicked on this one (of many hits) This would be an extreme gluten sample. Low fiber or ash content, high protein and high gluten. (Like rubber.) Use by the teaspoon. This is like gluten extract. A little dab will do ya. I avoid the stuff after the melamine scandal.
Low protein would also indicate low gluten in a glutinous flour. But gluten isn't the only "glue" one can toss into dough to trap gas but certainly the most common. :)
My loaf is out of the oven and bake aromas are fantastic! Light caramel, nutty, sweet. 55 min bake first 15 min at 240°C, the rest at 215°C. I cut into the solid still warm loaf wondering if I should cut into squares, wedges or slices. Got a corner off and the crust right now is a real tooth breaker so I plan on bagging it when cool. May throw a big bowl over it right now. It's got a good flavour profile but the crust is too hard. Can't see me serving this fresh & warm although I've been nibbling on it like a church mouse. Perhaps a dairy addition, lower oven temp or the overnight bagging would help. Update tomorrow but I like the sweet corn I added and the salt into the shaping flour. I'm trying to post a pic but having trouble. Can't seem to scroll down the uploading window to submit.
Crust softed somewhat overnight but still has "biss" or a bit of texture to it. Looking at the crumb shot, it did compact after the oven spring, more than desired. Next loaf with less yeast or sd only should help. I think (as warned) it fermented too much during bulk. Crumb photo taken of machine sliced bread. Too heavy for making a closed sandwich so "open faced" seems to serve up better. Corn flavours come thru nicely. Not too sweet, not to bland.
Good idea with the whole grain corn pieces. That's very much the kinda crumb one would expect from what is basically little to no gluten. I did the trigamilha and it toasts up very nicely. I did bake for quite long but stop short of 1hr 30min. While it is baked through it's come out like a rye which might have needed a bit more time. Although I still don't see 1hr 30min being correct. The crust is hard and while the crumb is dense it's soft.
Hi Mini,
I was suprrised for what you've written before concerning the oven spring, as this bread is much of a riser. It may have to do with the yeast: the recipes state 20gr yeast, but it's baker's yeast (wet), so if you're usind dry yeast you should come down to 2-3gr, depending on room temperature.
But the final product seems fine to me, the crumb is supposed to be dense and humid - not sticky.
congrats
The loaf dough weighed close to 1200 (900g dough + 300g canned corn) 60% corn meal plus it ate up my 80g of corn flour for the crust which got marbled into the dough before shaping finished. I was surprised it was done baking in 55 min. It did spread and glad I had a baking dish. It was spreading already in the flour bowl before I got it into the dish. Don't know if that is common.
Mixed dry ingredients including 3g idy adding on top of sourdough/water mixture poured over the soaked corn. I loosened the dough before turning into the floured bowl but only around the edges, my mistake, should have gone completely under the dough with the wet spatula. The bottom stuck It ripped in half, but it puffed up so fast after getting the dough into one blob, I wasn't worried about it rising before baking. I was worried about the speed of the rise. My dough seemed wetter than the pictures in the posted videos/pics.
With sourdough only I would reduce the mixing time which I'm sure raised the moisture as it beat the whole corn pulp into the dough gradually making the dough thinner. I would now add the corn later. I like little pockets of moisture in rye letting the steam slowly giving rye's 35% matrix a chance. Nothing worse for rye than a destructive fast rise. This loaf was 60% corn. The rye and spelt give it nuttiness but corn is the main flavour. Can't taste the bacon drippings directly. Crumb is not sticky and it is moist. I think with salted butter it comes close to tasting like home made popcorn. Now to toast some....
Hi Mini,
Suppose you will have to recalculate the water since adding the canned corn. And I agree with you to add it after mixing or alse it will be mashed and incorporated in the dough.
Cornmeal is not easy work, its a try and fail process.
Now, bread tasting to home made popcorn is a must. Might be of great sucess for kids parties.
regards
Hi All,
As promised, hereafter my sunday baking pictures.
Baked 3 loafs of my grandmothers wheat SD, 1 loaf of 47% whole rye and the Trigamilha.
Grandma's SD loaf and crumb
Trigamilha crust and crum.
47% rye crust and crumb
Grandma's SD and 47% rye came out as usual, only thing is the oven wasn't warm enough: I prefer SD loafs a little darker. But family is happy with it as I'm the only one that fancy's well baked bread!
The Trigamilha was fine on the taste (20gr salt), the crumb was nice and humid but not sticky. Should have mixed longer but the mixer is a little limited... :)
WFO are tricky to work with as your fermenting times have to match exactly the oven pre-heating. And I was guiding myself by the Trigamilha and forgot that the pther loafes still needed proofing time. So they all came a little too late in the oven: not much of a problem for the rye and corn (they stayed in the oven for over 2hr drying good) but the grandma's SD need this initial hot oven (280ºC approx.).
regards