Some slap and folds and a save

Toast
Anonymous on

Being the neat and tidy freak that I am my preferred gluten development technique is stretch and folds in the bowl. This week Carole and I are doing Ian's Broa di Milho. His delicious take on this traditional Portuguese Corn Bread. One of my favourite recipes.

Everything went swimmingly well until the shaping. For some reason my technique went down the drain and ended up with a mess after it started to stick everywhere. What to do? 

Now while i avoid the slap and fold when I can I often resort to it when saving a dough. So after a brief panic started the slap and folds. Eventually it came together and while my strength was in tatters my dough was holding itself together and looked better than me by this stage. No strength left I opted to dump it into the silicone pouch rather than carry on with the more "artisanal" approach. 

While the pouch does support the dough it was still high hydration and it will spread outwards rather than upwards. So what started off as a boule, at the end of the proofing, it ended up elongated and filled out the bottom half of the bowl like pouch. 

Didn't score it and put it in a preheated oven hoping for the best. What a nice surprise! The oven spring was excellent and the natural scoring is better then I could have done.

So this dough has had stretch and folds, bulk ferment, slap and folds then straight into shaping and a final proof. While I didn't keep any the bubbles from the bulk ferment it still had time to develop flavour. Hopefully the slap and folds has given me a nice enough crumb and while today we tend not to de-gas completely at one time it was the standard and everything you got crumb wise was from the final proof. 

It's now cooling. Here's hoping. 

Looks good despite your travails and like you slap and fold is not my thing - too much rhythm involved - on your Bread, I love corn bread so must try it...

While it's not my preferred method, on very wet dough, it is the superior method. When I do them my bread always has great oven spring. 

Highly recommend this recipe. Don't use what is called cornflour in the UK but rather cornmeal or fine polenta. Cornflour is just starch and is used as a gravy thickener. 

I have loads of coarse cornmeal at home which I use to make a polenta and pumpkin seed bread - make it for the market and it’s the most popular using 30% polenta and 30% toasted seeds

Nice result, and I look forward to the crumb photo. As for the slap-and-folds, how messy was it at that stage of the process?  I have never tried slap-and-folds (for the reason you avoid them), but perhaps I might give them a try sometime. How much counter space do you recommend? Do you use any flour on the countertop?

When all started to go south I was hoping for a semblance of a loaf just so I don't walk away with nothing. This was a nice surprise for me too. 

I'd do slap and folds more often if it wasn't for my OCD when it comes to cleanliness and tidiness. But at that stage it was more what is there to lose? 

I'd say slap and folds is great for those very high hydration doughs. It needs to be if a certain hydration for them to be effective. Think around 75% hydration and higher for an all bread flour dough. 

Normally you'd use no flour at all. There was some on my bench already after the attempt at shaping but normally non. You don't actually need too much space. My space is limited and I managed all the same. 

At that stage it had to go sticker before it came back together again. But once it did the dough was very strong. If done from the beginning it should just strengthen up! It takes some time and energy but it is a very good technique. Best oven spring with very high hydration dough comes from slap and folds. 

I'm also not a fan of slap and folds, too messy and I prefer to be gentle with my dough :)

But looks like you got a fine loaf out of it! Hopefully you'll be pleased with the inside too!

Happy baking Abe

Ru

What an interesting save, Abe. I’m going to try to remember this one. So slap and fold then into the Lekue?

I am forever amazed at the number of different breads you bake. I don’t know how you manage it.

Can’t wait the see the crumb. Please try to describe the flavor. I mentioned to “gillpugh” last night how I hope there will be a technology invented so we can taste via the Internet. He replied, “ I don't think it will be long before I will be able to lick my iPad and taste what I am seeing” That cracked me up :-)

Dan

 

For breads I need to 'save'. Throw in the lekue and hope for the best type of thing. Rather like how one might treat an over fermented dough. Throw it in a pot and hopefully when you take the lid off a miracle has occured. 

When you slap and fold it really strengthens up and the technique sort of makes a round shape with a tight skin. So after the last slap and fold I sprinkled with flour and rounded it into a neat boule and threw it into the lekue. 

This is a lovely recipe. Don't know if you've ever tried cornmeal in a Sourdough bread. The flavour is so nice. A lovely tang. Not sour but rather a nice flavourful tang that cornmeal naturally has when done as a sourdough. 

Thank you Dan. 

Very surprised. After not keeping any of the hard earned gas bubbles during the bulk ferment the crumb is very nice. 

Very pleasant tang. A flavoursome bread with a gentle tang. 

Crumb looks good to me. Did you fully proof the dough or did you bake early?

The score came out well, especially considering the slack dough.

Dan

Is all down to the gluten development technique. I think different techniques will present a different crumb structure. So while I did fully de-gas the slap and folds does add air bubbles into the dough. I'm no expert so hopefully someone will come along to confirm or do away with this idea. It's a very uniform crumb. 

I tried to time it well but I think about 20 minutes under. 

You wrote, “Didn't score it and put it in a preheated oven hoping for the best. What a nice surprise! The oven spring was excellent and the natural scoring is better then I could have done.”

Is the bread imaged on the very top of this post unscored?  That’s hard to believe it came out so uniform.

Dan

I decided that after the save I'd be more hands off. The lekue helps it with support and I also thought because it's quite wet and slack it wouldn't split too much. Worked a treat. 

That photo is post unscored. It opened up just right in the lekue. 

The crumb actually looks really airy and soft. Looks like you got way more than just the decent loaf you were hoping for! 

The slap and folds have given me the lightest crumb for this bread to date. This has taught me something about handling a dough and the resulting crumb. The structure is different. 

Thank you Ru

I can’t imagine doing slap and fold after BF - I’d be too scared but for you it has worked, amazing! I find I get a better dough if I slap & fold just at the start, but my kitchen windows always get splattered with fine white spray? so always need cleaning!! Trevor’s more gentle approach is my preferred way but now a combination works better for me.  Awesome that you got such a great loaf this way!

Leslie

Up until now I've used this way to regain strength in the dough when it's proving difficult to handle and there's no other way to save it. While this worked rest assured at the beginning is the best way :)

I should stop shying away and employ slap and folds more often. Instead of just as a last resort as a save. It works! 

Toast

pcake on Sun, 06/10/2018 - 15:00

that looks yummmy!  what a great save - did you use a lekue silicone bread maker?

Yes. When I was having trouble with the baking due to issues with a mini oven for a while I resorted to using the lekue. By and large I've found a good way around that and mainly bake loaves freestanding now after proofing in a banneton. But my lekue is always on standby for times like this. 

I had forgotten all about this recipe.  Yours turned out great for all the abuse it took.  I love slap and folds and you can do as many as you want the first half to 1 hour after mixing and no worries with crumb problems but the gluten gets developed quickly to hold in all of the gas better that is produced later on.  I really need to get Lucy to do one of these things just to see her swiveling that SS bowl between her 4 paws while laying on her back:-)

Well done and happy baking Abe

for Ian had the.... wet a SS bowl, pour out the water put in some flour to coat the bowl, drop in 1/4 of the dough and swirl it around for 20-30 seconds to shape it and than dump it onto parchment to final proof - it better work because Lucy is doing it on the next loaf:-) That sounds like as much fun as slap and folds.

Tried it this afternoon (with trepidation) and it's very cool and loads of fun! Lucy will love it! (Disclaimer: I used a glass bowl ;-) ; for the first piece of dough, I did fill the bowl, but for the second piece, just misted it. Lots less water wasted.)

Also easiest cleanup of any bake I've undertaken (there may have been all of 12!).

Enjoy!

Carole

And that's my preferred way of doing this bread which has worked great until now. For some reason the dough was misbehaving. Interestingly enough the crumb is totally different in comparison. The slap and fold has resulted in a much lighter crumb. It is fun and looking forward to you bake. 

Had trouble loading onto new baking steel, so probably lost a good bit of oven spring while learning how to jiggle off the peel. Can't wait to cut into one tomorrow morning. Next batch will be scaled up slightly, I think. Thanks so much for the formula!

I had the loaves proving on the parchment-covered peel, but by the time they were ready to load, the parchment had dampened slightly, which meant that the slide I was anticipating didn't happen.

Actually, I think my next test will be placing a covered roaster on the hot baking steel -- even easier! What think?

I am a huge fan of lightweight covers. I no longer use cast iron.

You can take your hand and grab the parchment from the back. Then easily pull the dough off the peel and onto the oven deck. Even if the parchment paper has gotten wet. Parchment will eliminate the need to shake the dough off.

If you think there may be a problem with the dough sticking to the parchment, you can slide it off the paper after the cover has been removed.

Dan

We seem to have some different techniques in the traditional recipes. This is a shape and bake recipe. Can't see much final proofing. In the video you sent me it's done as a flat-ish bread anyway. Eaten with herring. These are loaves but after the ferment it is quickly swirled around in the flour and baked.

The recipe includes the admonition "but be careful not to deflate the dough" and then continues with "carefully place [the dough] in the floured bowl and swirl it around 15 - 20 seconds until it starts to get roundish."

My questions are: (1) is the swirling done by hand (and if not then what tool provides the assist) and (2) how is the swirling done so as to create a shape and not result in a loss of gas?

This seems like a neat recipe to try, but I wanted to clarify the swirling aspect before any attempt.

Hi Watertown,

Yes, it's done by hand, and you do lose a little gas, but still wind up with a puffy blob -- it'll never stand tall enough to be a ball.

However, due to time constraints, I had retarded the dough for about 20 hours. With the dough still in its bowl, I sprinkled the top, my dough scraper and my hands with flour and divided directly in the bowl, rather than on the bench. I think the fact that it was still cold helped a great deal.

The divided pieces sit on the bench while you moisten/flour your spinning bowl. Using one hand and a dough scraper, pick up a piece of dough, lower it gently into the bowl. And then I started gently (because I was scared to death) swirling the bowl, saw that disaster hadn't struck and picked up a bit more speed. I'm not sure how long I did it, 20-30 seconds seems a bit short to me (and I was having too much fun). But you'll know when to stop. Then gently tip your bowl over to release it, re-mist and re-flour your bowl and carry on.

You'll love it!

Oh, btw, taste and texture are really nice -- that never hurts.

I think the real story here is that you were able to save the bread because you have a wide and deep body of experience and accumulated wisdom that helped you make decisions on the fly - even ones you weren't wanting to. It's that accumulation of experience, understanding and perspective that helps us adapt. And in your case of this bread - succeed. Well done, again!

Not fun while it's touch and go but very satisfying when you realise it's all going to work out well in the end.

On the plus side I'm less wary of performing slap and folds now. Perhaps i'll employ this technique from the beginning with wet doughs.

Try this recipe. It's very tasty.

I wish my bread looked like this.  My fails are just pancakes and I'm just not brave  enough to do what you did!

seize the moment!  

My way of thinking is what's there to lose? If I don't do anything i'll end up with a flop. If I try I might get something better out of it. The only way is up :)

Ooooh, that crumb looks simply delicious! I love using cornmeal; the flavour and texture are very nice. Here in Canada we can get corn flour that is actually finely milled whole corn, in addition to corn meal (various textures) and corn starch (the purified white stuff that is called cornflour in the UK). Lots of options!

I do like your adventurous spirit and unwillingness to give up on a recalcitrant lump of dough. :) I'm not sure I would have thought to start slap & folds at that stage. I'd be more likely to dump it in a bowl and just let it sulk for a while (perhaps a long while) until I was ready to face it again. Time sometimes accomplishes miracles with bread dough too! But that assumes one has time to do that. I prefer not to spackle my kitchen and myself.

Wendy

It's still grainy but not too coarse. Rather like fine semolina. 

Hope this helps Dan and you can add cornbread to your list of delicious treats. 

Me too! Even putting some in a levain build brings out great flavour. Sourdough cornbread is delicious. 

When I've got nothing else to lose plus throwing in a stubborn streak this is what you get :) Sometimes it can't be saved but every so often one can get a better result. 

This is the lightest cornbread crumb I've gotten. 

Hi,

You get over a dozen different recipes of corn bread in Portugal, depending on the region, but always up north - down south we're more into wheat and rye.

But there is one step that is common in all corn bread recipes that we call "escaldar a massa" which is to parboil the corn meal. And this is usually done the night before and let the dough rest overnight. On the next day you add the rest of the ingredients (wheat flour, rest of the water, yeast/SD).

the crumb is wet and with very few holes in it - it's a very "dense" bread.

and you do not score it. it should look siomething like this:

broa de milho

if anyone interested I can gather a few recipes and post them here.

regards

Fausto

That bread looks delicious and I love sourdough cornbread. Broa di Milho is very tasty! but I've only tried this recipe. A traditional recipe would be most welcome and I look forward to some recipes you suggest.

Is this one you made yourself?

No Lechem, this one was not baked by me. I seldom forget to take pictures..., sorry.

But here's a picture of a rye batch of a few weeks ago plus a sardine "bola" from last weekend: somebody mentioned herings in a post here, but you should know that at this time of the year we mostly eat Sardines.

rye batch and my wood fire oven in the back

sardine "bôla"

That's a lovely basket of bread. And that rye bread looks like the broa di milho's I've seen in videos and how it's eaten. I've just been discussing how the way it's eaten will bring out the best in the bread. Like semolina bread with olive oil.

It seems like cornmeal and rye are the more common types of grain. I love both!