May 15, 2018 - 1:42pm
Lievito Madre Starter Storage
Having recently dabbled a little in making Italian style breads, I came across the stiff Italian starter called Lievito Madre.
It seems that this is correctly stored wrapped in cloth and tied with twine or submerged under water.
I'm just wondering why it is stored like this and whether there would be any advantage to store a "normal" stiff starter under water? (I don't really fancy using the bound cloth method!)
And is the water just water, or is there anything added?
Lance
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mwilson
Yes; I'm hoping he might be along soon!
And I'm only taking an educated guess here but it's probably plain water and the purpose is to stop it from drying out.
Hope Michael is along soon or drop him a message.
Best of luck Lance and looking forward to seeing some Italian breads.
Yes plain water.
Simply put these methods allow for the extending of fermentation whilst reducing the development of acidity. There is a lot to explain but I haven't time right now. Two exams tomorrow..
All the best
Michael
Thanks Michael and good luck with the exams! I hope your wine SO2 analysis was fruitful!
If you ever get more time, I'd much appreciate your more in-depth explanation on the lievito storage.
Lance
Hi Lance,
I now have some time to better answer your question.
These methods come from a time before refrigeration was commonplace. They allow the dough starter to be held or preserved for longer periods eg. overnight. The aim here is to slow fermentation and reduce the development of acidity or prevent souring.
The binding method is arguably the more effective of the two but personally I enjoy the simplicity of the in bath (bagno) method. Iginio Massari says the binding method is better suited to large scale production and he prefers it as it 'guarantees excellent results'.
It is important to note that these methods were developed independently in different areas. The in water-bath method is seen as more a north-west Italian technique and is often referred to as the "Medoto Piemontese".
I haven't read much on the history of the bound method but I think it has existed for a lot longer. It also has a place in the history of French baking I believe.
Now here's my understanding of how they work...
By binding the dough the CO2 that is produced is trapped within. CO2 is forced to dissolve into the water at greater concentrations with increasing pressure. This has the effect of reducing water activity (Aw) which is a fundamental parameter for microbial growth. Dissolved CO2 is carbonic acid, it is a little acidic and with additional pressure the pH also decreases. Fermentation is severely constricted as a result. Massari says that sugars are consumed more slowly. Whereas if the dough were not bound they would be consumed in half the time.
Additionally in this environment which being anaerobic favours a shift towards lactic acid production by LAB. This is good as lactic is the main driver of pH changes in dough fermentation and helps prevent souring in the final dough. This method really works very well and certainly lactic acid is greater versus the water-bath method. Lactic acid causes dough to have greater water absorption.
The in water-bath method works in a very different way but helps to achieve the same result. It is said that the acidity developed by the sourdough is lost to the water and since it is a connected effect the increase in dough strength is limited. Lactic acid production is significantly reduced with a favouring towards acetic. The dough takes much longer lower in pH and halts at 4.1 for a very long time. Whereas if not in water a lower pH will easily be achieved.
With both these methods the dough is preserved and is held off from souring like a typical sourdough starter would and doesn't breakdown so quickly and create off flavours.
Whichever method you choose each provide remarkable changes to the fermentation and are essential for the maintenance of a lievtio madre.
Regards,
Michael
Thanks for the follow up Michael - interesting. I hope your exams went OK!
What hydration do you use for your submerged starter and can it be stored this way in the fridge? Also is the method only suitable for white flour starters or is it applicable for starters with some wholgrain flour content?
I also discovered mention of a third method of lievito madre storage where it is stored under olive oil, but couldn't find many details on it. Have you ever come across this method?
Lance
The lievito madre should have the right consistency. 45-50% should be about right with strong flour. I stick with 50% during the refreshments but lower it to 45% when storing overnight in water. Yes absolutely, it can be kept in the fridge this way.
The maintenance of lievito madre is really gauged for white flour as it has little buffering capacity. However if you want to use some wholegrain in there that's no problem. Usually it would be incorporated during the refreshments.
I have heard of using oil but I don't think anyone actually does. I saw it when I first heard of Rolando Morandin. I can't see that it would offer any advantages over the water bath method.
Michael
PS. Results of the exams were better than expected. So that's good...!
Thanks Michael - interesting. As a trial, I've got a small lump of my 56% starter stored under oil (mixed olive/rapeseed) in the fridge.
It's been there for 5 days and is certainly staying as a discrete ball rather than mixing with the oil. The only problem is that it must be less dense than the oil (probably with trapped CO2) and so is floating on top of the oil!
I'll do a taste test for acidity in a day or two, compared to my dry stored starter.
PS Well done with the exams - are these for Oenology?
Lance
Hi Lance,
Certainly I'm interested to know your findings...
Sorry, I suspected given your wording but didn't believe you thought the starter dough was supposed to remain submerged. Yes it floats and as you figured due to the CO2 causing a lower density. Have no fear this is normal and happens with the water-bath method too.
The time it takes to float is also a good way to judge maturity. It should take 1hr at 20C.
All the best,
Michael
PS. The exams were indeed part of the degree I'm working towards in viticulture and oenology. One was for grapevine biology and the other was for wine sensory analysis at that time. Scraped a pass on the biology, perhaps my weakest of the sciences!!
I didn't realise that the starter floated; I thought the whole point was for it to be submerged to stop oxygen pick up from the air.
Also I got my density logic inverted and thought that it was floating because of the oil, when of course the oil would make it less likely to float....
Anyway I've got a lump of stainless steel in the jar now, pinning it down...
Wine sensory analysis sounds more interesting than vine biology!
Lance
I checked the pHs of the 2 starters after 6 days storage in the fridge and (somewhat disappointingly!) they were both about the same.
Tastes were similar, too. So maybe not much advantage in the oil storage - but it's making good bread at the moment!
Lance
Hi Lance,
I would expect a similar pH after 6 days. LAB are still metabolically active at fridge temperatures and the course of descending pH isn't all that limited. pH 4.1 is the common baulking point and doesn't provide the full picture of acidity as you know...
What was your feed ratio?
Lievito madre is mostly fed 1:1 (1 part starter to 1 part flour). This feed ratio is important to maintain strength. Rather than changing the ratio to extend the fermentation period the water bath and binding methods are used. Their benefits are limited to a max of 24 hours at 18-20 C.
It's possible you might not notice the difference unless you're using the madre this way.
Try the water-bath and the binding methods. See if you notice anything.
Thanks for your report. I look forward to seeing the resulting bread...
Michael
so the 4 hour feedings don't need to be kept anaerobic. he just leaves it out in a bowl, dusted with flour. just the piece that you propogate is bound/kept underwater.
my madre's been doing great at raising panettone. now if i can only get that thisisfromroy texture. time to buy an artofex mixer i think... just kidding.
thanks.
~andrew
Currently, I refresh my starter at the same time I build my levain; it's a 2 1/2 build system. Build 1 1:2 @ e5 27C, build 2 1:2 @e11 24C, build 2.5 4:1 @m8 27C. Start making dough @m10, by which time the levain is well risen. Save some as starter and refrigerate, currently under oil.
It's actually a lot simpler than it sounds!
Here's a loaf from this morning's bake:
Probably a touch o/p as it was waiting for another loaf to exit the oven - and very non-Italian, I'm afraid, with 10% rye, 10% WW and 5% spelt!
Lance
Hi Michael ,
It's me again. .
What is the difference using Pasta Madre vs Stiff starter for Panettone? Trying to Google it out for nothing.
Did you use pasta Madre or stiff starter to make panettone?
Thanks
Elny
Hi Elny.
"pasta madre", "lievito madre", "stiff starter". They are all the same thing.
What can be different is the method of maintenance.
Michael
I'm new to the lievito madre game and am trying to learn as much as possible after two not-so-good panettone attempts. Right now I'm focusing on building the strength of my LM. I converted by liquid starter to a stiff one and plan to keep both as I've come to realize that under the low hydration conditions, the actual "fauna" of the starter is different. I tried the roll and submerge in water storage method a few times but for some reason the starches in my starter start washing away and if I leave it for a long time (overnight) 1/3 or 1/2 of the starter has disentigrated in the water. Could this have something to do with a lack of strength? I've seen some IG posts (mainly from Gerrie Lanai) that the lievito should surface within an hour in 20*C water but mine takes a few hours.. I use Caputo Manitoba Oro flour and drop the hydration to 40% when I store it rolled in water.
I've just been reading this article - perhaps it will help?
Lance
Hi.... im very new to this pm as well. Started mid Nov last year, so far i have been using it to bake pani 3 times, still far from perfect of coz, but still taste really yummy. Btw.... are in the states?? Where did you buy Manitoba Caputo Oro from??? The only place i lnow sell is from Italian online websites, and the shipping are so so pricey. I used Manitoba antimo caputo for the pani, but now they are out of stock.. prob till late spring. So i have been using KAF sir lancelot for daily maintenance. I have been feeding the pm daily with 1:1 with 30% hydration and soak in water, it will float in an hour. And another one wrapped in fridge that i refresh every 5 days. Hope can learn together with everyone here
It's panettone time...Pasta Madre questions abound...
If you are new to pasta madre, and not fully (yet) into the geek science, but still trying, what would be a generalized maintenance/storage program that doesn't require a science degree, or pretzel-bending technique?
I'm lucky enough to be able to feed my starter regularly and bake with it. Fancy storage with wrappings or sitting in water intimidate the hell out of me, but the OCD worries that my starter won't be "good enough," for panettone if I don't learn and practice this...sigh.
ATM, my pasta madre lives in a small fido jar with the rubber gasket removed.
It this too much air?
Would the rubber gasket then seal the jar enough to (poorly) simulate being wrapped/in water?
What differences does this make in baking (other than taste), if any?
Will keeping my pasta madre in a fido jar make that much difference over wrapping/water storage?
I know, it's just yeast, it's been with us for centuries...and there is no "right" way to do anything. But any "trial and error" lessons I can skip will be SO appreciated. I'm getting too old to waste time trying to reinvent the wheel...
Hi, when using the bound method I've seen some use both plastic and cloth, and other just using cloth. How much of an impact does this make? The bound method appeals to me, but I'm not fond of the idea of blowing through plastic bags all the time. Maybe I'm mistaken, tho. Anyhow, any insights would be appreciated!
I too have converted my 80% levain into a 50% PM and maintaining for about a week.
I've been using a Ball "Mason" type jar with a tight fitting lid, and noticed that when I open it, a rapid woosh of CO2 escapes (the lid bulges outwards at the end of the 4 hours). From a technical view, I'm thinking this would be just as good if not better than wrapping in plastic and tieing, since the flora will be working under pressure and should slow to help storage. I'm just wondering now if it would be suitable to store in the fridge for a few days under pressure.
From a safety point of view, I'd be rather concerned about deliberately allowing pressure to build up in a glass container, unless specifically designed for pressure, like a beer or sparkling wine bottle.
Possibly Mason jars are designed to leak from the seal before a dangerous pressure builds up, but it might be worth checking with Ball - though that might be tricky at the moment.
Lance
For me, I use an oversized jar and only fill it 1/4. This allows plenty of room for expansion and gas. The jar I use leaks when I overtighten the lid... so this is perfect. When pressure builds it just releases itself a little. Helmanns mayonnaise Jar.
The best starters Ive made, however, tended to be in a bowl with clingfilm over the top.
Thanks for the safety concern but that is not an issue for my jar, size of levain in it and the amount of gas built up. Its a small gas build thats audible on opening - but as a engineer Im not worried about explosions with this one...
The question I am interested in is storage - I don't hear of people storing their stiff levain in the fridge - is that because it cant be done, or goes sour and you need 3 feeds to clear up the sourness?
I only take it out to bake with or, like today, to refresh it (it's been about three weeks since the last use). We'll have sourdough pancakes for breakfast to use up the excess.
Sourness in bread, strong or mild, has more to do with how the dough is treated than with the starter‘s degree of sour. I only feed mine before making the levain if it needs refreshing. If I just used it a week ago, it’s ready to use straight out of the fridge.
Paul
This sourdough thing is a curious, wondrous, adventurous, hobby for sure!
I'm still learning as I go (and probably always will be!), but I think I can somewhat answer your question, although specificities escape me...
Storing your levain in the fridge does retard fermentation. But, from what I understand, it also retards the way the fermentation occurs from a chemical standpoint. The sourdough yeasts do not ferment in a certain way when refrigerated, and this suppression is not the same as the water or bound methods, which both specify an ambient temperature of about 78 degrees F. (My sourdough and pasta madre have to be content with what they get in my house, or the garage if it is a warm day outside...) Something to do with the fermentation acids differing between room and fridge temperatures.
From my basic sourdough starter, I know that I need to let it come to room temp for awhile before feeding and putting back in the fridge, in order to let certain yeasts warm up and do their yeast thing.
https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/san-francisco-style-sourdough-bread/
It does take time and planning but very little hands on. Plays around with hydration and time to produce a lovely tasting sourdough.
You don't have to be in San Francisco to have great tasting sourdough. Starters around the world have been found to have the very same critters what was once thought to be unique to San Francisco. As Paul says... it's more to do with how the starter is treated and used in the dough.