Over-proofing, under-proofing sourdough or just bad shaping...what does it look like?

Sourdough baking is difficult, and Tartine is on the more difficult end of baking methods.  Knowing when a dough is properly proofed takes longer than you'd think it should.  This loaf actually looks pretty good.  It's got an even crumb and looks proofed enough, so I'd guess it's not under.

You will see many highly hydrated loaves that spread and still get tremendous oven spring because they were handled skillfully at every turn, including proofing and shaping.  But spreading or difficulty holding a shape is a telltale sign of overproofing, as is a flatter result and a more closed crumb.  My overproofed loaves have also had a dented look, as if they rose, but then couldn't hold the shape.  I've also found that fermenting at higher temperatures with high hydration dough (as Tartine does) risks overproofing, because the dough may overproof during the final rise.

You can try to change the result several ways, including lowering the percentage of levain, shortening the time of the warm bulk ferment and/or the cold final rise, etc.  My preference would be to shorten the warm bulk ferment by an hour first and see if that works.

I'd also recommend getting Hamelman's Bread.  He does it differently from Tartine, and I find his methods more reliable and easier to execute.  I often increase the hydration of his recipes as I have advanced from a novice baker, and I omit the commercial yeast called for in his recipes, which he says you can do but add time to the bulk and final rise.

Kat, I noticed in another post that you liked Trevor’s book. Have you seen this video? https://youtu.be/wuk8Ma4gaeA

Even though the crumb in your pictures is not extremely open, I think it looks ok. But it definitely lacks height. IMO, we can get obsessed with large holey crumb. I know I do :-)

The bread didn’t rise. Did it spread out during bake? When the bread has been finally shaped, is it taut? If you gently press it down, does it resist and then bounce back? Are you heavily degassing the dough when you handle and/or shape it? Is your starter very active? How do you determine when the bulk ferment is complete?

I know. Lots of questions, I’m curious. 

Have you tried a good room temp bulk ferment, then reshape and shape. Load in bannetons then cold proof overnight. Remove from frig and bake immediately in a hot Dutch oven? I don’t evaluate the cold proof, instead rely on oven spring.

HTH, Dan

“I have a rye starter which I cannot control 12 hour cycle but it is predictable if I use a certain temp that it will grow a lot, looks bubbly and healthy, stringy etc. and passes the float test (although more tricky with rye)  in approx. 4 hours time. I also make sure that it does not get too acid and has that nice smell. I normally use it for baking at it's peak to be on the safe side...”

My rye starter plagued me with the identical problem. You can read about it here. See last post. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54661/im-desperate-learn-why-my-starter-will-not-rise-past-8-hours

“It went into the fridge for 12 hours – I probably had too much dough for the banneton and it filled it all the way to the top. It held it shape when I put it on the bottom of dome and THEN when I scored it flattens and looses form?”

The dough ran out of gas. Or is it possible that the long ferments degraded the flour too much? I’ve been very sensitive to this issue lately. Trevor talks about extremely long autolyse (over night) and that sounded great to me, until I considered dough degradation. I’m sure he has that worked out, but I haven’t explored that yet.

It seems to me that long, warm ferments and/or proofs would do best with stronger flours. It should be harder to degrade (I think). Could this be an issue for you?

Excerpt from Open Crumb Mastery, “If your dough still can't form a windowpane, even late into the bulk, then that could be a sign of potential problems with your dough. Don't get discouraged and throw it away --you can still get decent bread, but it's unlikely that you'll get that nice open crumb you're hoping for.”

It is possible to develop gluten in your dough and then later find that it has degraded and is no longer strong.

Hope something above helps trigger a spark. I threw a number of my thoughts out there. Maybe one or more is applicable.

Danny

You must be very proud. It appears to be standing taller. Looking forward to checking out the crumb. Isn’t home baked sourdough great? I can almost hear the crunching of the crust as you saw throw it.

I’ve got a Champlain sourdough about ready for the overnight autolyse. You’ve inspired me.

Dan

Your crumb looks good, but I know it is not what you are aiming for. Since you are from the UK, I’m wondering if some of the problem may be the strength of your flower. LeslieRuf did an interesting experiment using weaker flours available to her in New Zealand.  See this link.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54934/experimemtation-next-step I think she is using additional gluten for certain doughs. 

Is it possible that some of your problem could be related to weak flour? Keep in mind, when viewing recipes on the TFL, that most users are from the US where some of our flours are very strong. 

I pose this thought because I read that you are having difficulties getting a good shape. Maybe I’m off base, not sure.

I started the Bulk Ferment for the Champlain Sourdough at 5AM this morning. This is my first attempt. My dough seems much more sticky that Trevor’s. I was able to handle it, but it didn’t seem to behave as well as his. (Pro vs. Amateur) I did use home ground Rye and Spelt. Not sure what he used. Will post images when available.

Dan

I got to thinking about my Stretch & Fold issues (dough too elastic) with this morning’s Champlain SD. The overnight autolyse took place at about 58 degrees. When I placed the dough in the proofer set to 77F the dough relaxed and looked much like Trevor’s. It was extensible and a joy to stretch.

In an attempt to get more open crumb I am starting to focus on the stretches. I’m the kind of guy that thinks, if a little is good, then more MUST be better. I am trying to be less aggressive when stretching the dough. - The way Trevor handles the dough blows my mind. When I watch him I can feel the love.

I enjoy watching his videos above all others. I hope someday to emulate his touch. He is kind to the dough and, in turn, it is kind to him.

I watched the 3 videos linked above. Not many people know this, Trevor was born with a non-stick Teflon coating on his hands. I’m told that if you shook his hand, that it would slip out of your grip. Hehehe

Dan

“Did your dough get to the ball shape like Trevor's before bulk fermentation?” If you mean when he was kneading in the bowl, No. It did not! I questioned his hydration as a mater of fact. My dough was sticky I had to fold on the bench. My dough appeared more wet than what he had in the video.

After writing this I am headed to the kitchen to shape and proof the dough. At last look my dough didn’t have as many nice small bubbles as yours appear to have.

I’m going to ask Trevor to chime in. Maybe he’ll have time.

The main thing I’d like Trevor to address is the wet dough (compared to his) on the Champlain SD video. Both myself, Kat, and I think Leslie are experiencing the same results.

Dan 

“inquiring minds want to know”

look forward to crumb.

Leslie

I plan to chronicle my second bake. First off I can say that reducing the autolyse to 2 hours is causing the dough to behave better. It is representative of what we’ve seen in the video. But, the question remains, how will it turn out.

Starter - My stater runs on a 12 hr cycle. It is mixed 1:3:5 using KA AP flour. I needed 50g of Levain. When I refreshed my starter at 7PM, I also built the Levain. I mixed 5 starter + 25 water + 25 AP flour. I wanted a 100% hydrated Levain. Since my starter cycles at 12 hours, I knew I could count on the Levain at the same time since my flour to starter ratio remained the same. At 7AM it was waiting on me. I like to use my starter once it has cycled from feed to recede.

The dough behaved drastically different with the 2 hr autolyse. Below are images of the first kneading. 

The dough is behaving like a 68% hydration dough should.

Below, the dough is pictured after the second kneading. The gluten is developed and the dough is not sticky at all. The affect of the autolyse on the dough is amazing. Compare an overnight autolyse to a 2 hr one to see the the difference. The S&F Where done hourly

I am starting to get a little concerned. I hope the developed gluten does not negatively affect the outcome. If it does, maybe I consider AP flour instead of BF next time. BY-THE-WAY. I heard from Trevor last night, and I think he will stop in to check us out. Maybe early in the week. YAH...

FIRST FOLD - I was pleasantly surprised to find that in the hour rest the dough relaxed quite nicely. It behaved much like the video.

SECOND FOLD - I failed to take a picture of the first, so below is the second fold. My dough does not feel “ultra luxurious”, but it ain’t far from it.

Below the boule is pictured after the final shaping.

My dough is not ”poofy” at all.

Below are comparisons of Bake 1 (left side) and Bake 2. The 2 hour autolyse appears to have produced better results.

QUESTION - Did the 12 hour autolyse cause the loaf on the right to darken a lot?

The image below was a real learning experience for me. The bread on the left above was the first bake. Visually comparing the two it seemed obvious to me, the later bake on the right grew much more. But when you look at the over lay of both breads below, the obvious is not so obvious. Bake 1 is on the bottom of the stack. Compared this way, I don’t notice a tremendous difference in size. It does appear to me that the last bake (bake2 on top) did have more dough strength. 

Crumb shot of Bake1

Crumb shot of bake2 - I thought maybe a rat ate his way into the bread :-(

With the exception of the crumb, I was pleased with both bakes. I’ve got to figure out what I’m doing to prevent the open crumb. Could it be that I am doing the S&F too aggressively?

Below is a Crumb Shot of Bake1 (on left) and Bake2 (on right)

 Thanks all, for bearing with us on such a long post. I hope you found something of interest. I know that Kat and I definitely did. Your input is appreciated.

Danny

I think it might be good for you to explore different flours. Leslie made me a believer. Here in the US we are blessed with our flours.

BUT, I don’t think your flour is/was the main culprit for your Champlain SD. I think the extended autolyse had the greatest affect.

I’m excited to hear from Trevor on this.

Dan

Have you thought about this? 100% Whole Grain has no additives. Among other things, most flours contain Diastatic Malt. This should affect the rise, not the gluten. 

Also, King Arthur All Purpose four contains 11.7% protein. Maybe you are expecting too much from the grain. Just a thought.

As far as gluten, I’m not sure. If you weren’t extracting I might suggest gluten strands being cut, but not with you.

If that in fact is your problem, have you considered a small amount of Vital Gluten? If you do try it, use it carefully. That stuff is potent. The best way to see for yourself is to mix your ingredients to gluten development. Then test to evaluate your gluten. If you determine it needs more, turn on your mixer and add it slowly. You will see a remarkable change before your eyes.

TIP - If you want to visually learn the affect of salt on a dough do much the same. Mix all ingredient EXCEPT the salt. Mix to gluten development, then with the mixer running disperse your salt throughout the dough. The results will blow your mind. 

Experiments such as these have benefited my learning process greatly. You can read that salt tightens dough, but when you see it happen before your eyes you REALLY get it.

Dan

I choose not to refrigerate before autolyse since I only let it rest for 2 hours. Note: the typical autolyse is from 30 - 60 minutes. If you put the salt in with the starter, I think you should be fine. Do you have salt in the dough?

It is my understanding that salt will soak up some moisture. And I know salt will act to tighten the gluten.

I’m checking the banneton now for proofing. I’ve got to go preheat the oven.

Dan

Kat, I've not really followed this thread too closely, but if you are using some white flour I can recommend the Duchy organic white bread flour as sold by Waitrose/Ocado. I think protein is 13.4% and it will happily go up to 75% hydration and maybe higher in an SD loaf.

Lance

can’t wait for crumb shot! 

I think you and Dan are onto something so really looking forward to Dan’s bake and the crumb shots.  lol I don’t ever wait 24 hours, far too long, I am too impatient to see the crumb. I normally wait 6-8 hours then slice and freeze.  well done

Leslie

I think the crumb looks great? The loaf stand much more erect. The shaping looks good and the crumb pattern is uniform.  So much better than your earlier bake.

Other than the reduced hydration, do you have any other thoughts as to what improved this one?

You should be really proud with that bread...

Our gal, Leslie is really getting the open crumb thing. Maybe she'll let us know her secret ;<)

Dan

PS  You should post the first image in this post next to your latest crumb shot for comparison. UNBELIEVABLE

I am not very good at judging this either especially with room temperature final proof. I much prefer cold overnight fridge proof. Still, looking at the pattern of holes, maybe a bit longer would have given a more open crumb. hopefully others will comment as well.

Leslie

Hey folks, I was asked to comment on this thread since there were some questions regarding dough consistency (or inconsistency, as it may be) of the Champlain Sourdough recipe. It’s a long thread, and though I’ve read through the entire thing, I fear I may have forgotten a fair share of the early postings by the time I reached the end. I’ll do my best to address the relevant points (as best I can recall them), but if I’ve forgotten anything then please feel free to let me know.

First off, regarding the dough consistency of the Champlain Sourdough. There are typically 2 main issues at play when comparing dough consistency – the flour in use, and the hands doing the work. There are also some additional possibilities, such as dough temp/ambient temp (colder dough and colder ambient temps/less humidity make for a slightly stiffer and easier to handle dough) and starter health/dough health (proteolytic starter tends to increase the chances for proteolytic dough – the kind of dough that tends to be overly sticky, tears easily, or even dissolves rather than form nice strong gluten).

This video was shot mid-March, and my cold Vermont kitchen made for a slightly stiffer dough consistency than what I get with this same recipe during the heat and humidity of summer. But that’s really a small thing – the differences are noticeable, but not overly dramatic.

So that brings us to the 2 main issues . . .

1) The flour I used in this recipe was King Arthur Bread Flour (12.7% protein), Bob’s Red Mill Whole Spelt, and Hodgson Mill Organic Whole Rye. Also, my starter was 100% hydration and made with King Arthur All-Purpose. North American flours tend to be quite strong (high protein) and can absorb plenty of water. If making this recipe with weaker/lower protein flour, then hydration will need to be lowered in order to attain the same dough consistency. Most European flours are weaker than North American flours, so that should always be a consideration.

It’s important to note that dough consistency, not hydration, is what matters. Dough consistency reveals far more about how the final loaf will turn out than does hydration. Hydration is always relative, and though dough consistency is still a subjective matter, it’s far more reflective of the dough’s actual nature than is hydration percentage without context. If I tell you to make a dough that’s 80% hydration, it really tells you nothing about the consistency of that dough unless you also know the flours you’ll be using – 80% hydrated whole wheat is far stiffer than 80% hydrated all-purpose. But if I tell you to make a wet dough, you have a much better idea of what kind of consistency I’m looking for – irrespective of the flours in use. It’s not perfect – my idea of wet dough may be wetter or stiffer than yours, but at least you have a better idea of what this dough consistency should be like.

Champlain Sourdough (as made in the video) should be a medium soft dough. Not too stiff, not too wet. With the flour I use, 70% hydration (with 12% whole grain) typically makes for a slightly stiffer dough than you see in my video, but the long overnight rest helps to soften up the dough and increase its extensibility (I’ll discuss this further shortly).

If your dough seems much wetter than mine, then the first place you should look is to is the flours you are using. Adjust as necessary.

2) Experienced hands make a far greater difference than most folks want to believe. Trust me, if I were working alongside a new baker and we were both shaping this same dough, the dough in the hands of the novice would appear far, far wetter than the dough in my hands. That’s not to brag, it’s just a fact that any experienced professional baker can attest to. The problem is that when you’re a newer baker, you have no reference point to compare to – the dough feels wet and sticky and that’s all you know. So if it’s wet and sticky for you, then it must be wet and sticky. Right?

It’s not until you’ve shaped thousands of loaves that can see the other side – the dough is no less wet or sticky, but since you can handle it just fine it no longer appears to be so. For the newer bakers watching you shape, the dough appears smooth and supple. They figure it should be nice and easy . . . until they get their hands in it.

I know this from personal experience.

When I first started I couldn’t shape a single loaf for the life of me. Everyone else was shaping one beautiful loaf after another, but in my hands, the dough just stuck to everything (and most of our dough was only 60% to 65% hydration using higher protein bread flours). And it tore. And it deflated. In fact, I’ve yet to meet a baker who has less natural talent for handling dough than I had. I’ve trained many bakers over the years, and not a one has required as much time (or mangled as many loaves) as I did before I started to finally get the hang of it. I believe that much of the reason why I’ve been an effective teacher is precisely because I struggled so terribly when I first started (and I remember that pain clearly).

Of course, the dough that I was shaping wasn’t any wetter than the dough the other bakers were shaping. It’s just that I couldn’t handle it, and they could. End of story.

People absolutely hate this answer though. When the dough is sticking to their hands and the bench and everything else, the last thing they want to hear is that maybe the problem isn’t the dough – it’s with them. With their inexperience. They want to know why the DOUGH is so sticky, and so that’s what they ask. But the better question would be, “Why can’t I handle this dough?”

Now, that’s not to say that every time a dough seems wetter and stickier than it appears in a video or in the books or in the hands of an experienced baker, that it’s just because of a lack of experience. Like I said earlier, difference in flour is usually the first culprit. But experience is the second.

If you’re using similar flour, but the dough still seems too wet or sticky, then consider that you may just need to reduce the hydration to get a dough that you can handle more comfortably. Over time, as your skills improve, you’ll be able to increase the hydration – what once seemed wet and sticky will instead one day feel smooth and supple.

Okay, on to the long autolyse . . .

It’s true that a dough can degrade excessively from a long overnight autolyse – especially wetter dough or dough with a high percentage of whole grain or rye. It’s the enzymatic activity that occurs during the autolyse that creates the benefits. But like all things, it’s the dose that makes the poison. Too much enzymatic activity will break down gluten to the point that a dough becomes excessively weak. It will tear too easily, it will be stickier, it won’t hold gasses very well (and consequently won’t develop the structure necessary to hold a good shape or achieve an open crumb).

What I do when I premix the dough is not a true autolyse because I add the salt. Salt will slow down the enzymatic activity, and that’s precisely why I add it when letting the dough rest overnight. That’s also why I chill the dough first. A cold and salted dough will exhibit far less enzymatic activity than a warmer unsalted dough will. That’s why it can handle an overnight rest of 8-10 hours without degrading. But as with everything in bread baking, your circumstances may vary. If you’re in a very hot and humid climate then you’re more at risk for dough degradation. Same if you’re making a wet dough, or using lots of whole grains or rye.

I use the premix method primarily for adding extensibility to stiffer doughs. This allows the dough to achieve a more open or irregular crumb structure than it might otherwise have been able to achieve with just a regular short autolyse. But if you just use an overnight regular autolyse (no salt, no chilling the dough) then it’s more likely that your dough will degrade excessively. As always, let trial and error be your guide.

And finally . . .

Dan, the difference between your two loaves from above is that the second loaf was underfermented during the bulk. You can see it in the dough (it looks heavy and has a clean smooth skin without much in the way of surface bubbling), you can see in the shape of the loaf (tall in the center and sloping heavily towards the sides indicating insufficient gas/structure to hold a round full shape), and you can see it in the crumb (a few large holes surrounded by tight dense crumb – what I referred to as Fool’s Crumb in my book).

If you compare your dough to Kat’s later attempts you can really see the difference in airiness between the two doughs. Hers has bubbles and shape. A certain lightness. Yours looks heavy and dense. Too young. I’m not trying to pick on you, just trying to help you understand what to look for.

Underfermentation can have several causes, but usually it comes from an insufficiently active starter. Assuming that your temps were warm enough, and that you gave it plenty of bulk time, then it’s probably a starter/leaven issue.

One thing to note: this recipe uses a very small amount of starter. As such, it requires that the starter be very active or the dough just might not ever really get going. I like using small amounts of starter because I like the qualities that develop from a long slow rise. But that has proven to cause problems for those who don’t have as active a starter. Doubling the amount of starter (or even more) in this recipe would bring it more into line with common ratios, and may help in bringing about a more active fermentation.

That’s all I can think of to write at this time. Hopefully, I’ve answered everything. If I’ve missed something, feel free to let me know and I’ll be happy to clarify or elaborate as necessary.

Cheers!

 Trevor

I really appreciate your time and help. I think I need to try this again watching carefully at the bulk ferment. I noticed that Kat’s dough was bubbly and mine was not. I probably got wrapped up in the clock when I should have watched the dough. After the 6 hours of S&F during the bulk ferment was up, I went on to the preshaping stage. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting a more thorough bulk ferment. If this next run doesn’t work, I’ll take a look at my starter.

Question; I’m beginning to suspect that I may be too aggressive with the S&F. I’m trying not to tear the gluten, but I am “going for the burn”. Looking for maximum stretch. Should I be concerned?

How do you determine when a dough is ready for another S&F? Is extensibility the only concern?

I can’t tell you how much all of us appreciate your help. Your book is constantly being quoted and referred to. 

I’ll always welcome your help or the help of others. I really want to learn...

Again, Thanks.

Dan Ayo

Hi Kath 

I use the Duchy flour from Waitrose I have been told by a very reliable artisan baker that the Duchy flour is Marriages flour  I really like it 

Just wondering about the term "piggy folds /  piggy stretch " you describe as you make your dough  Is it a smaller fold 

Fantastic sharing of your dough production Thank you for sharing 

Happy Baking 

Liz

Hi Dan 

Is your Ank having a wee holiday  I have been experimenting with my dough hook but have reverted back to the roller

Happy Baking

Liz