January 26, 2018 - 3:02pm
How will salt affect an autolyse?
How will salt affect an autolyse? If I ad the salt, water, and flour at the same time and let it rest for 1 - 2 hours, how will the salt affect the dough and the process?
If I autolyse flour and water and then after the autolyse is complete the salt is mixed in, the dough tightens dramatically and starts to separate. I’m hoping to avoid that.
Dan
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Open Crumb Mastery, he discusses this question in the earlier chapters about mixing. He admits that adding salt to the autolyse actually makes it NOT an autolyse in the strictest definition of the word - he prefers to use the word "pre-mix."
But in his process, once mixed, the dough is refrigerated until bedtime then left on the counter to slowly come back to ambient temperature overnight, i.e., 12-16 hours. His assertion is that although salt is typically left out of the autolyse to avoid the tightening effect that you describe, the long retard and fermentation essentially negate that effect and the dough relaxes nicely by the time he starts the next step.
Dabrownman has a different approach: he mixes his dough and before he sets it aside for the autolyse he sprinkles the salt on top. The salt doesn't interact with any but the topmost layer of the dough so the autolyse proceeds normally underneath as expected; and the small amount of moisture that the salt draws out of the dough dissolves it, making it easier to mix in later. He says he does it this way so that he doesn't forget to add the salt later.
I'm sure you'll agree that both of these bakers produce stellar results, so they've found a way to successfully add salt during this step of the process. It just depends on your timetable: if you can wait overnight to bake, try Trevor's method; if you can't wait, try Dab's.
--Mike
I’m in the process of making Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain using Trevor’s methods as described in his Tartine video. It calls for a 2hr autolyse using flour and water only. But at the beginning of this endeavor I failed to take into account the flour hydration of 57% and the soaker hydration of 41%. So, I ended up “pre-mixing” the flour, water, and the soaker in order to incorporate. The soaker contains .66% salt. Not the way I planned it, but I’m going to have to play the ball where it lies.
I am a big Trevor fan and on my second read of his book now. The 12 - 16 hour autolyse does concern me. I’ve recently become aware that an extended autolyse will degrade the flours substantially. Because of this, I chose not to extend the autolyse past 2 hr. I’m thinking that the dough will require considerable strength in order to handle 34% seeds.
The extended autolyse may work well for doughs that don’t require much strength. Have you tried them yet? And if so, how did it affect the dough?
Thanks for a lot of great information.
Dan
Old thread but perfect timing. I will try this. I have another thread going about stiff dough and your post gives me an idea to try. Two actually.
The recommendation is to add the salt at the very end after the levain has been mixed in. Some like to add the salt as a super saturated solution. I grind coarse sea salt in an herb grinder till its flour and use that. The autolysed flour mixture (30 minutes is more than enough) when combined with the levain makes a fairly slack dough. I mix the combined mixture until the dough exhibits nice extension (window pane test) before adding the salt. The dough is mixed an additional 3-4 minutes until it tightens up and is then ready for bulk ferment.
This method is recommended in Raymond Calvel's book, "The Taste of Bread". Calvel discovered the autolyse technique. It has worked well for me. For your reference the dough is 65%.
Wild-Yeast
Great idea! I’m going to make some now with a mortar and pestle. In the past I’ve used salt to clean the bowl and the process turned it into “flour”.
I’m thinking that this salt “flour” will incorporate much easier and more thoroughly.
Boy, the unlimited nuances of bread baking fascinates me. Without this forum, where would we be?
Dan
inhibiting enzyme activity in the dough and slowing down those processes. Since the whole idea of an autolyse is to get the enzymes working ahead if time to either break down starch into the sugars the wee beasties can metabolize or start breaking the protein bonds in the gluten to make the dough more extensible the idea if adding salt is totally counterproductive to what professor Clavel specified for an autolyse - water and flour only - no salt and no levain or yeast.
It you are doing a very long autolyse 12-16 hours that is not in the fridge, then adding salt to it will slow the enzematic processes down so that the dough doesn't turn to goo. It is just easier to control the autolyse processed with the proper time and room temperature based on the flour being autolysed. Salt just adds another autolyse variable that has to be accounted for and controlled.
My whole concern about adding the salt to the autolyse is because I thought it would incorporate (diluted in the water first) with all ingredients.
I’m amazed to see others dump salt into the water, then flour on top and then mix. I guess it must work, but my mind questions that. I’m Leary even adding salt and starter on top of the autolyse (like Trevor does). I’ve done it, but it seems to me that the ingredients may not incorporate throughly. What say you?
Dan
mix it in. I don't want the salt to get in the way of the enzymes doing their job and don't want to forget it. I usually do sprinkle about 10 g of water on top of the salt at the end of the autolyse to help it dissolve and mix in well with a spoon before adding the levain to the mix. Salt over 4% will kill LAB so I don[t want it in direct contact with the levain. Salt strengthens the gluten bonds in bread, improves the flavor and slows down fermentation so that flavors have enough time to really come out. I always use slap and folds, about 60 usually, after the levain goes in, to make sure that the levain and salt are thoroughly dispersed and the gluten developed during the autolyse begins to strengthen. At this point i get the feel of the dough, how strong it is and whether I need to add more flour and water to the mix or do more slap and folds to get it to feel just right. That is where experience comes in.
Then I use time and a few gentle stretch and folds on 30-45 minute intervals to keep the dough as strong as I want it as it becomes more extensible over time. Salt, acid, low hydration and dough manipulations strengthens the dough and time and higher hydration gives it the proper extensiblity. A proper formula has just the right amount of autolyse for the flour at hand, to go with the right amount levain, to go with the right amount of time at each step and adding the ingredients at the right time, shaped and scored properly and well baked to come up with a great looking bread that tastes as good as it looks. There many variables and ways to make just what you want if you know what each thing and process does. It is the experience over time that gives you the confidence to do just about anything you want, when you want, depending on what flour, time and add ins you have at hand.
Happy baking
of your technique above. I didn't remember reading that you added a few extra grams of water after the autolyse. I just can't help singing your praises for all the wonderful contributions you make here.
--Mike