Hello and HELP!!!

There must be something you baked in the last 5 months worth eating. Give me a recipe and how you followed it, with details. I want to understand exactly what your routine is like. Oh, and tell me what temperature you're baking, use an extra oven thermometer please. If you have any pictures, please let me see them. With your help, we will figure this out.. not to worry... And don't take too long, your starter is waiting...

Hang in there, Mini O

well Toby, I've lurked and learned here for quite awhile.....you might try going with a simple loaf as in the lessons on this site and I'd recommend not trying to change too many variables at one time....you sure have learned the language of puting together a good loaf!!!!!

Another idea the Floyd might think about for this site is something that I've enjoyed on another "learning" site is a map page were folks plug in their locations with regard to either wanting a mentor or willing to be a mentor....that being said if you let the group know where abouts you are someone might pipe up and come along side....

the previous response too of documenting what you have done and also posting a picture so folks can see would be a big step to getting help...just don't post it on you tube..they aren't so kind over there LOL

 tom

are you using?  Next Q, what is the protein content?  Taste the flour, tell me about it.

If you dont mind me jumpin in here. I would like to add a couple things for you, while Mini Oven is getting to the root of your problem with you.

First, dont mind the mixing by hand part as being a problem.  Every bread I make is by hand. 

As for - I'm curious:- how important is 'slashing technique' (slashing the loaf) to the development of thick crust?  You can get a nice crust with or without slashing your loaf. 

As for the couches, they are nice but again, you can still make a nice ciabatta without them.  Look here at this link.  This is how I couche bread with just parchment paper and dish towels.

Sorry Mini, wasnt trying to step on your toes here with Toby.  Just adding my two cents, for what its worth.

Good luck Toby,

TT

very good points.  2 cents always welcome!  It's good to let Toby (and others) know that one doesn't need all the fancy gadgets to bake a good loaf of bread.  I suspect most of the problems hang with the oven, we will soon see.  Another might be the flour if it is low gluten, that might explain the dough "reverts to a puddle"  phenomenon.  Tasting the flour can tell me what condition it is in.

Toby, one more Q, What do you expect the ideal crumb to be in the bread that you invision as "ideal?"?   Then maybe we can pair you up with a good recipe to continue your persuits.  I don't think you're a ciabatta fan, am I right?

Mini O

Hi!  From a true amateur, here are the 2 major mistakes I ALWAYS made when I was younger (had tried baking bread here and there in my lifetime - abysmal failures - "caught on" in my late thirties - love it now!)

 1.  I way overemphasized temperature - meaning I thought the yeast and bread mixture HAD to be warm when mixing, and let the dough rise in a really warm oven.  Cool and room temperature are fine for yeast - I thought it was a killer.

 2.  I figured "more is better" when it came to rising times.

 Theory one was based on all those old recipes - you know, where they told you to proof the yeast in warm water - they even gave a temp range, can't remember what it is anymore.  Not necessary, usually not even a good idea.  I also warmed the oven before letting the loaves rise - it was probably over 30C in there! 

 Theory two seemed logical, but too much rise (in a very warm oven) caused the dough to puff too much before it was strong, and collapse later.  Also resulted in a terrible crust, I recall now, but that was the least of my worries in those bricks!   If you follow "modern" recipes exactly, they give a fairly precise time for the final rise.  An oven with the light on will usually give you the perfect proofing chamber for these recipes, and takes the guesswork out of rising times, until you get a better sense of when dough is "ready" and can let it have a cool rise.  Learn to trust in oven spring!

 It's taken me two years, but I've become very good at sandwich loaves of many types, and only now am experimenting more with freestanding and artisan loaves.  I have turned out one deadly good batch of ciabatta and a couple of baguettes with nice crumbs, but still am "failing" more than I'm succeeding! 

You're probably way beyond these mistakes, but I'm giving you them just in case they're far too amateur for most people on this site to consider!

Toby, you've gotten some great advice from others, hope you don't mind me jumping in as well.

First, you need to change your name. "Woefulbaker" may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suggest "damnfinebaker" instead.

From what you said about your bread not holding a shape, I suspect your problem may be that the gluten is not developed well enough. Even with high-hydration doughs (and in fact especially with high-hydration doughs) the gluten needs to be strong enough to support those gas bubbles. As the bread proofs, it does help to have some support in the form of a couche, basket, but this is so the loaves rise upwards instead of outwards, not to compensate for weak dough. If you are seeing puddles even while the dough is resting between shaping and preshaping, I'd bet anything the dough is underdeveloped.

Do you use the windowpane test? Some others here don't, and get great results, but I have always found it to be quite useful.

Susanfnp

http://www.wildyeastblog.com

Dough does develop strength as it ferments (the principle behind "No-Knead" bread) but assuming you do not want to make a bread that requires 18 hours for fermentation, you should be able to develop the dough at least minimally during mixing (kneading). I.e., a windowpane that does not tear but has quite a lot of opaqueness/thickness to it. Then the dough should be further developed during fermentation with a series of folds. This is not just for high hydration doughs but any dough that has not achieved a desirable level of development during mixing. Don't worry about degassing, this is in fact one of the purposes of folding. Developing the final gas bubbles is what the proofing step is for. Jeff Hamelman says "If the excess of carbon dioxide that is generated by the yeast is not periodically expelled, fermentation can be impaired" (Bread, p. 16).

I usually use a stand mixer and mix the gluten to a medium development (windowpane with a few opaque areas), then often do not fold unless the dough will be fermenting for an extended period of time (say > 1.5 hours) or if the dough has very high hydration. When I mix by hand I need to fold more often because it's hard to initially acheieve more than minimal development.

As far as your starter goes, you should be seeing in increase in volume as well as bubbling. I assume that just after feeding the starter has a thick and pasty consistency. What is its consistency after the 12 hours? If it is thin (almost runny) you are probably underfeeeding your starter (i.e., it is maturing sooner than the 12 hours, probably does increase in volume and then fall back down) so need to feed it more, or more often, or keep it in a cooler place. If it is still thick,  you're overfeeding so feed less, less often, or keep it in a warmer place. When the starter is mature (on a 12-hour feeding shcedule this should happen around 8 hours and hold there for a few more) it should not only be increased in volume but when you lift a spoonful of it up you it shouod feel light and you should see the gluten strands stretching. I think it has the consistency of the inside of a perfectly-toasted marshmallow, a subjective description of course.

Susanfnp

http://www.wildyeastblog.com

There has to be a reason for your problems, and eventually someone will figure it out. I have one question for you--what is your water like? Do you use bottled water for your starter? Many areas have heavily chlorinated water and it can literally kill the yeast spores. This is especially true if your water treatment plant uses chloramines because they don't dissipate upon standing like chlorine does. If you haven't already tried it, switch to bottled spring water for your starter and your dough and see if it makes any difference.

I once sent some dried starter to a person living in Canada and she had the same sorts of problems you are having. I kept sending her new, fresh dried starter and finally with the third batch I convinced her to try bottled spring water. Voila! Instant success.

So we better get out of your way!  (How do you like that twist?)  Sounds like the flour is in order.  I'm not keen on kneading 20 minutes either so when my dough is still soupy and I haven't added all the flour, I wisk it a lot and let it stand 20 to 30 min before I add more flour and get into kneading.  This saves me lots of work.  I still enjoy kneading and all my breads are hand mixed.  I love getting my fingers into dough.  

Be patient with us, we will figure this out, together, so don't give up yet.  Change the water, and get back to us.  If you're afraid of wasting ingedients, just make tiny little dough balls to test theory, no need to knead up a big loaf.  

Some of us live in different time zones, like me, I have to wait about 8 hours for the USA to wake up and sometimes it takes longer for me to reply and here it comes, "...all good things take time."  A time honored quote.  With all the experience here at this site, your problems will soon be remedied.

Mini O

Ok. Have you tried to wake up your yeast?

Maybe it is dead?

 Put a teaspoon in some warm water with a teaspoon or two of sugar. Dissolve by stirring for a bit and then cover and leave for 10-15 mins.

If it doesnt bubble it is dead and you should buy some new stuff.

I found two things wrong with my bread.

Gluten content. Buy some gluten flour and add 1-2 table spoons per cup of flour.

Try that and then try purchase the best type of flour in your area and make bread minus the gluten flour. Gluten flour was my crutch for months until I found good quality flour here in England (In Australia I used gluten flour all the time)

Also, knead, dont stir. Knead for 15 mins if you have to.

Another thing.  I am beginning to wonder if your oven is the culprit.  I had to bake in an oven once that was pretty bad....my bread took an extra half hour to bake (and they were ROLLS!) Turns out the oven was shotty and the thermostat didnt work well. It couldnt go as high as I needed for my bread.

I think you should call in an oven repainr man before you go making anything else :S

One last piece of advice.

Stick to Floyds lesson one recipe, OR his rustic loaf recipe on here.

Work with them until you have success. THEN, move outward.

I make great sandwhich loaves now, and half decent rustic loaves but my ciabatta still leaves alot of room for improvement. I dont have a mixer, and mixing my hand is just REDICULOUS! So, forget it for now and start small, in small batches and get that oven checked!

Thegreenbaker 

Toby, I'm still on the receiving end of wisdom rather than being one of the happy creatures who dispense it, and as such I've been following your travails with concern and empathy. I know how frustrating less-than-optimal results are, but you are not experiencing them alone, and your comrades out in the ether are sharing your experiences and learning from them. Please keep trying and reporting back on the results.

Maybe some time when you're visiting a friend for a few days, you could experiment with the environmental variables by trying to make a batch of bread there. That could give you some insight into whether your water or oven are a factor in your results. As for technique, classes sound like an excellent idea. I'm going to check into classes for myself. And I'd like to second the suggestion someone made on this site that perhaps there could be some kind of matchmaking service between mentors and novices in the same geographical area.

Abby

It would be very helpful if you could post pictures of your dough, starter, and finished bread. We aren't going to let you give up!

Here's a really good, foolproof recipe for white bread which you can put into bread pans or shape into rounds and bake freeform.  It's adapted from The Great Canadian Bread Book by Janice Murray Gill, and I have permission from the author to post this recipe anywhere.

Acadian "Double Crusty" Bread

2 cups warm water

1 tbsp. sugar

1 tbsp. active dry yeast

1-1/2 tbsp. vegetable oil

1 tsp. vinegar

1 tbsp. salt

1 egg

5 to 6 cups all-purpose or bread flour

Put the warm water into a large bowl with the tbsp. of sugar and add the yeast.  Let it sit till it has bubbled up nicely.  Mix the egg, vinegar, and oil in a cup and add to the yeast; stir in well.  Add the flour and beat until the dough pulls away from the sides of the bowl.  Turn out and knead about 8 minutes, adding enough flour to keep the dough from sticking to the work surface.  Wash out and grease your bowl.  Put the dough into the greased bowl, turn to coat all over, cover with plastic wrap and let rise about an hour to an hour and a half.  Then punch it down and let it rise again.  Punch down, turn out, and shape into rounds for free-form, or into loaves for bread pans.  Put into greased pans, or onto greased baking sheets.  Cover and let rise till double.  Meanwhile preheat your oven to 350 deg. F.  Bake the bread for about 35 to 40 minutes, or until it sounds hollow when you tap it on the bottom.  Cool on wire racks.

It's a simple bread to make, it has beautiful oven spring and a lovely crust; it's also light.  When you've mastered something like this, you can then experiment with different flours, and go on to the more challenging breads like baguettes, ciabatta, etc.  But first, you have to make yourself some really good bread to prove to yourself that you can do it.  And you can.

Good luck, and relax.

ok. well ?I see the pic. It doesnt look too bad.

Seriously. did you think about getting extra gluten flour and ading some to each loaf recipe?  It could be your flour. that ohoto is similar to my first few months of baking :)

What brand of flour do you use?

I used to use homebrand (the supermarkets own crappy brand cause it was cheap) and I needed to add gluten flour to it to get some action. 

So, checklist.

• New yeast (tick)
• Try a different brand of water perhaps. Just normal water. (I use tap water straight from the tap but its all different in different countries)
• New flour or buying gluten flour for the addition of gluten.

• Recipe. Something simple and lean. I would suggest if the primer loaf didnt work, then maybe you didnt have enough flour. you said it was sticky....that says to me add more flour. just bit by bit while you knead it. keep flourng the surface until it becomes elastic. If you add estra gluten, you should get an elastic dough. If not, it makes me wonder what flour you are using! Is it wheat at all? Or is it buckwheat or soy flour! lol!

Take photos of each step you do and post them up. that way we can see more and try to decipher what is going on. Even take photos of the ingredient packets if you have to. :)

Good luck!

a little out of focus but I can see you had oven spring and there's good color there. Are you still up? When cutting fresh hot bread, the crumb can be dense and gooey because it is still hasn't set yet. Let it cool first and then cut with a serrated knife. Then take a picture.

You mentioned some problems in shaping, "the dough almost impossible to handle - sticky and too soft to shape into anything approaching a loaf" That's it! Not enough Flour! You've got to work some more flour into it. Soft Ciabatta bread... too soft dough..cannot handle...yes, YES. MORE FLOUR. Stiffen it up a bit more. If it puddles, add more flour!

Flours absorb at different rates and all you need to do is increase your flour in your recipes. Then let the dough sit to double.  We didn't think of it sooner because novices tend to add too much flour when they start out.   Well you're someone special, you've now got plenty of experience with high hydration doughs, now lets decrease the hydration by adding more flour and get going!

Mini O

There are a bunch of things everyone can go over, and it might get a little frustrating for you so lets start back at the beginning. 

We know you have tried different flours, and yeasts, and waters, and temps.  and so on.  So here is another attempt.

1st- Do you have scales?  Scales for me are my No.1 tool used for bread.  If you are using measure instead of weight something as simple as flour in a recipe can be way off, depending on how you put it into a measuring cup.  Some say spoon it in, some say scoop, ahh hogwash.  I want the same results every time, I do not want to wonder if Im putting in the right amount.  Scales give me the same amount everytime.  Most digital scales will give you onces as well as grams.  I use grams, not for any other reason than I feel it is very precise, and very small.  For example 3 grams = 0.105821972168 ounce.  Thats silly, 3 grams it is.  So Scales #1, dont break the bank.  My scales I got from walmart for about $15.00 its made by Sunbeam I think, not the best.  But it tells me grams.

2nd- Yeast.  As you have seen in stores and books there are a bunch of types.  Yeast that is fresh, yeast that has to be dissolved in warm water (whats their definition of warm?) and so on.  Hog wash, Instant yeast.  Open package, measure out amount, dump it in the bowl with the flour, done.  Just measure and dump.  Very easy.

3rd- Flour. Good grief, how many different types are there, oodles.  I still havent seen all of them, and I have used at least a dozen different types myself.  Just pick a good brand flour that is unbleached, unbromated.  A bread type flour, dont have to break the bank.

4th- Water. Spring water from a bottle, well water (in country), tap water (in urban areas) will be fine for bread.  Not the greatest for SD Starter, but for bread, just fine.

5th- Salt.  Again, oodles of types and prices.  If you go by measure this will foul you up as well.  Because 1 teaspoon of Sea Salt is different in weight than 1 teaspoon of Kosher Salt, and different than table salt.  So here again is where weight is the way to go.  10 grams of salt is 10 grams of salt, it doesnt matter how course or fine it is. I use Kosher salt for most breads, but thats just me.

With all that being said, here is Floyds #1 modified in weight to give me 2 loafs of bread..I really think you should go with this because it is the bare bones version of good bread.  4 ingredients, done!

• 908 Grams Flour
• 29 Grams Salt
• 14 Grams Instant yeast
• 517 Grams Water

Weigh and dump flour into bowl, dump yeast in bowl on flour and stir, then dump salt in bowl,and stir all.

Weigh out water and dump in bowl.  Dig your hands right in and start squishing the ingredients in your hands, like grabbing a handful and closing your fist.  Your hands will get quite messy, but it will mix it all together.

Once you have a shaggy mass, dump it out onto the counter and knead.  Now here is another topic of variety.  I knead by just having my ball of mass in front of me and using the palm of my hand and flattening it towards the counter pushing into the dough.  Once I have a somewhat round and flat mass, I either roll it up, or fold it over onto itself, from each side towards the middle.  A doughscraper,. or bench knife works great for getting it up off the counter in the beginning when everything is still gooey.  A flat spatula or putty knife will work in a pinch, if you do not have a bench knife.  Do this routine for about 5 minutes.  By the end of this your shaggy mass should start looking like dough. At this point give your hands a little break if needed for a couple minutes, then start again.  Maybe for another five or so.

This is a another big confusion in my opinion.  10 minutes, I can bet that the way I knead for 10 minutes, with the energy I put into it, is very different than the way that say a young female would.  For goodness sake.  What you want here is results more than a specific time.  You are looking for your dough to have all come together, no big clumps of unmixed flour and such.  Just a smoothish ball.  No, it will not be completely smooth.  Mine never is, maybe with a mixer, but not with my mitts it isnt.

Now put the ball back in the bowl, and let it sit until it looks like it has nearly doubled in size.  This could take you an hour and a half, or maybe two hours.  Depends on kitchen temps.  So go by the way it looks. 

After it has grown in size to about double, put it back out of the bowl and onto the counter.  It should feel like it has a bunch of air in it.  Gently, press down on the dough to degas it.  Dont "punch it down"  as books describe.  I think that is a bad choice of words.  When I think of punching something, I think damage.  If I punched down my dough, it would look like a pizza.  So just press down lightly with opened hands and lightly degas.  Then gently fold it up on itself, top to middle, then bottom to middle, then pick it up and tuck under the sides so you have a rough ball shape, then back in the bowl.

Let it rise again, just like before, and degas again like before, but before you put it back in the bowl, divide it in two and shape.  Round loaf, batard, pan, doesnt matter.  Just take care not to be too rough with it.  It will have gas in it, and you do not want to deflate it all.  Then once shaped let it do its final rest.  Maybe 45 minutes, it will rise again but probly not double.  Preheat your oven to about 375'F or as close to it as you can, and put you bread in for about 40 to 45 minutes.  Again temps vary so keep an eye on it.  If you have a glass front window on your oven, use it to look, do not keep opening your oven door, you will throw your temps all wacky up and down.  So try to keep it closed if you can.

If you try this, you should not fail.  Should is the key word.  With this you have kept your ingredient list to a minimal, you have kept a precise amount of ingredients.  And you go by looks more than a preset amount of times, which really depend on specific temps. anyways. 

Once your bread has baked and has been removed from the oven, let it sit until it has cooled so that your bread will be developed.  Just like meat taken from the oven keeps cooking even though it is out.  The inside of your bread needs to cool and complete its cycle as well.  So dont rush it, and I know at times its hard not to, but try your best.  It should cool completely in about an hour or so.

Then cut into it and see what you have.

Let me know if this helps you at all. I too want to see you succeed, and wish you the best.

TT

good on you.

Start small.

 Extra strong flour. (just to get a leg up in this 5 month long journey of yours (although it took me about that to get it right :)  even long I think!)

Wake up your yeast in some water with sugar.

Make the dough not so sticky, do as you did for the rolls. Add all but 1 cup of flour and knead, then add the cup whilst kneading.

I find, a little less yeast, (eg. recipe calls for 2 teaspoons, I add 1 1/2) a little longer rise, perhaps even a second rise, then shape and proof.

Thats as basic as I can put my usual way of doing things.

I really hope it works for you

good luck!