For a year, I have been the route with the best books, internet sites, conversations with authorities (King Arthur); have altered everything you can name (hydration, baking temperature, Pizza store and Lodge pot, spraying and not, baking time, etc. etc. etc. AND, STILL produce thick, chewy (trip to the dentist) crust! After trying all the best books/methods, I am now finally going simple (Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day). Does anyone know what REALLY works for thin, crispy crust??? Thanks much. Jim Burgin
Yes, I know.
for thin, crispy crust you need to develop gluten in your dough, so that it stretches into a really thin film.
Then the crust will be thin and crispy. If your dough is not kneaded enough, it stretches only into thick layers of film. They bake into thick and leathery, chewy and hard crust.
When you examine your dough for readiness, see if it is shiny and how it stretches. Make it into a ball and see if it has bubbles all over its surface. And see if these bubbles have transparent skins. Then it is a sufficiently developed (kneaded) dough and you will be happy with the crust it gives.
If, after kneading and last punch down of your dough, before shaping it into a loaf, it stretches only into thick layers, like that,
This sort of initial gluten development is equivalent to 600-800 turns of dough when kneading by hand (25 min of kneading) and is typical for the baguettes.
Such dough will form thick large bubbles over its surface, if made into a ball
Intermediate level of gluten development is achieved when we give dough 900-1200 turns when kneading/punchind it down/stretching+folding. It stretches much thinner into a more transparent film and gives thinner, crispier, easy on the teeth crust.
When dough with intermediate level of gluten development is made into a ball, we see medium size bubbles with semi-transparent skin forming over its surface. When such dough is baked, its crust will be shatteringly crisp, thin, like that of a millefeuille, pastry-like when you bite it.
Finally, the maximum level of gluten development, fully developed gluten is when you give dough about 1800-2000 turns when kneading it. The dough will look shiny in the mixer/food processor
Well developed gluten when kneading in bread machine will also look like a shiny dough
It stretches very thinly
And gives a ball with frequent small, fully transparent bubbles all over its surface.
So, that is the secret of thin and crispy crust. Develop your dough, knead it when you mix your dough ingredients, then knead it more when you punch it down, until it is supple, shiny and makes a ball with average-sized or small blisters all over and stretches into a very thin transparent film. This is a well developed dough that will give you thin crust, crispy and shattering, easy on your teeth, similar to biting a French pastry, not a leather boot.
mariana
Thanks SO much Mariana, I will try this!
Follow Up Question: About how long, at what speed in a Kitchen Aid mixer with dough hook would equal each of the levels of kneading you prescribe?
Happy New Year! Jim
Jim, I haven't owned KA in a long, LONG time. When I had one, I was simply kneading until the dough would look like that, in the mixer: visibly shiny and blistery, with multiple visible bubbles under the skin.
Yesterday I watched someone knead their dough in KA, medium sized KA model, and they achieved initial gluten development after 9 min of mixing: 4 min on 1st speed to blend ingredients to homogeneity, then 4 min on 2nd speed to knead, and then 1 min on high speed to beat air into dough. Total of 9 min to achieve an equivalent of 450-600 dough turns.
They used organic all purpose flour, 360 brand (from The Whole Foods store). The total weight of dough in the mixer was 47oz (about 3 lbs of dough kneaded in a 5 qt mixer bowl). 1/3 of that dough was sourdough starter, meaning that 1/3 of dough already had its gluten developed and that is why the total mixing time was rather brief.
So, I would assume you would have to knead similar amounts of dough and develop your gluten in KA in stages. First, achieve the initial level as in the example above, by kneading for 9-12 min total on different speeds. Look for a shiny surface of the dough and bubbles under it.
Then, in the middle of the fermentation, repeat the same kneading sequence, to achieve a better developed gluten - medium level of gluten development or intensive gluten development. If you want your breads have an open crumb, with large open pores, French artisan or rustic style,
...then stretch the well kneaded dough on the table and fold it on itself several times: to trap large bubbles of air inside. Complete fermentation and shape dough into loaves or buns, etc.
Happy New Year, Jim!
mariana
and helpful illustration. Thank you for sharing.
Yippee
Hi Mariana,
I’ve been struggling to get that thin crackly crust and very light interior of a classic French loaf bread. I’m assuming that your recommendation is the machine version of Chad Robertson’s approach to gluten development, with his series of folds, during the bulk rise. So to reiterate what I think I’m hearing you say; mix and KA knead, then let rise some and KA knead again, then fold and shape?
what I’m really wondering, is how do commercial bread makers produce that super cheap French bread that you find at the grocery store which is closer to what I’m trying to make than what I have been able to make. All kinds of complicated Artisan breads, no problem, cheap French loaf bread, failure after failure. And I’m sure they don’t knead more than once. I have a steam oven, fire brick oven, spiral mixer, but use KA for test batches.
I think one answer may be to start using a sponge, so more than half of the batch’s gluten will already be developed.
i really do appreciate reading your post or reaction to a post. Got to love the learning curve ?
Hi Wholywheat,
Chad Robertson's approach is more of a no-knead approach to gluten development, because he uses a very young sourdough starter and gives his bread dough extremely long fermentation times with little kneading. So as the bread dough sits in tubs for a long time the gluten gets destroyed by proteolytic enzymes (autolysis) and by acids from the sourdough bacteria, so it is easy to develop the remaining gluten with a series of folds. A classic French loaf is the opposite, it has high proportion of yeast in its formula and brief fermentation time, rigorous kneading right after mixing or mixing+autolysis and only one stretch and fold in the middle of bulk fermentation.
If you have to work with strong North American flour, then yes, do what you said: mix and machine knead, then let rise some and machine knead again, then fold and (let rest), then shape?
Commercial bread makers either purchase weak to medium strong flour suitable for French bread, or rely on two approaches: intense kneading in commercial mixers, or flour additives that degrade excess of gluten in strong flour. You can try and do the same: intense machine kneading and additives, such as using pizza yeast instead of regular dry yeast/instant yeast. Pizza yeast contains L-cysteine which destroys some wheat proteins and makes dough supple and stretchy, less tough, less strong, easier to knead and to develop thin layers of gluten.
If you use sponge in combination with strong flour, it will only make things worse, it will make your dough even stronger, tougher. Sponges add strength.
best wishes,
mariana
I have to raise the BS flag until you can provide a repeatable experiment that demonstrates that there is any proteolytic enzyme activity involved. While there is evidence of proteolytic enzymes in some Eastern European wheat flour (where the wheat was infected in the field), it is essentially nonexistent in wheat flour from the US and Canada. I have found no proteolytic activity above pH 3.5 and none of the described fermentation creates an environment that is that acidic. So while I am standing by to try your experiment I suggest that what you are seeing is in fact a different phenomenon. The commercial additives you point to are generally reducing agents such as glutathione which allow rapid mixing and are counteracted by a slow oxidizer such as ascorbic acid after the mixing is complete. Most home bakers don't need or want to use these commercial additives (in part because they are used in minute quantities of a few parts per million). If you want to see the action, mix a little commercial yeast with sugar and water and let it grow for 30 min, then bring it up to 90°C for a few minutes and cool it back to room temperature. You now have a fair amount of glutathione to play with. Use it carefully.
Doc.Dough, it seems that there are proteases and proteolitic activity in North American flours as well, according to this article in Scientific AMERICAN by Emily Buehler, a US chemist and baker:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/enzymes-the-little-molecules-that-bake-bread/
Since the sources of proteases are flour, yeast and malt and our Canadian all purpose and bread flours are malted, and bread dough is yeasted, I don't see why there won't be proteolytic activity at all.
I never suggested glutathione or any commercial additives. I mentioned Fleischmann's pizza yeast which contains L-cysteine. I tested it and the difference it makes is simply remarkable! Flour with 11.5% protein suddenly behaves like European bread flour with 9.5-10% protein. It simply makes "better", more European quality, bread.
Can you activate and isolate (and identify) proteases from commercial bread flour (at a pH above 4)?
I suspect not. At least there is no record of it.
Hi Mariana,
The link below is my first post on this site and posted it earlier today before ready you wonderful post. Is there any other ad ice you might give me, other then the mixing genius, given the other information I have on the post. I think mainly, using the combi; steam, temp and time. I read through volume II, BAKING, Science and Technology today, and got the impression that I may need to lessen or remove fat and sugar, because they encourage browning, and need less encouragement due to the convection.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61472/classic-french-loaf-bread-nola-poboy-bread#comment-442731
I really appreciate your learned skills and the time you give to us in search, so what do you think?
Steve
Jim, Kitchen aid pro 6qt with hook, Takes around 8-9 mins start with speed 1 for 3 mins, then speed 2 for 2 then speed 4 for 1 min then speed 5 or 6 for 2 to 3 more mins.
Be Careful with speed 5 or 6 because If you load more than 1300-1400 Gram of dough in a 6 qt KA, KA may get forced due to heavy load dough and may damage the motor. and tight your KA, It will be going to have travel on the surface because of shaky and planetary movement.
Good luck
So now you’ve got me thinking. I want to learn by experience the affects of kneading dough to the various gluten development you mentioned. I never knew that dough could be developed to that degree. - It’s great to be retired. I have the time to obsessively follow my interest :-)
I’m thinking I would learn best by kneading to the various stages pictured in your reply. In the past I’ve been cautious not to over knead or introduce too much oxidation. (I read a lot of Reinhart). But for certain breads thin crisp crust would be outstanding.
I’ve been thinking about purposely over kneading to experience the feel, consistency, and look for myself. I think it’s high time I saw for myself. I know it is said, “blessed are those who believe without seeing”. But in this case I’d like to see for myself ;-)
If there are any suggestions how I can better run this test, please let me know.
Should I test with AP Flour? I have KA on hand. How would I best conduct this test? I use an Ankarsrum and have the option of scraper and roller or dough hook.
Thanks, Dan
”inquiring minds want to know”
Hi Dan!
Gluten and stages of gluten development are sometimes poorly understood by a home baker. Not everyone reads textbooks for bakers for they are expensive and sort of difficult to understand. One textbook that explains and illustrates gluten development in dough is Michael Suas, Advanced Bread and Pastry. See section Developing the dough, pp 60--72.
For your home test of different flours and methods of gluten development all you need is a cup of flour and 2 min of your time. In that 2 minutes a food processor or a kneading blender (Vitamix, Blendtek, etc) will take a piece of dough size of an orange through all stages of gluten development - from none at all to a complete destruction of gluten. It is because the food processor with its fast spinning metal blade gives dough 800-1000 turns per minute. And it doesn't oxidize it all that time (the blade goes through the dough in a enclosed environment)! So in about 30-45 sec you obtain the initial dough development, and in 1 min-1.5 min - medium gluten development. In 2-3 min full gluten development and gluten breakdown.
Pretty much the same can be done in Ankarsrum with a larger piece of dough. You would have to sacrifice about a pound of flour for such an experiment I guess and it would take about 30-60 min of intense mixing on high speed to see all stages of gluten development and breakdown for an average bread flour with about 11-12% protein. Do NOT use KA mixer for that test. It will overheat and you will lose the mixer. It is not designed for long kneading times - for medium and intense gluten development, let alone for the gluten breakdown : )
Normally, we knead only to the initial gluten development when we combine water and flour into a piece of dough. The further stages of gluten development happen later on as the dough ferments. Strong flours require more kneading, there is simply more gluten in them and they have strong gluten, their tough gluten resists development.
Suggestions for running the test.
1) First, learn what gluten is.
Place a cup of flour into a plate. Pour some water on top. See how water doesn't seep through the flour. It stays separate. Why? Because water immediately activates gluten formation on the surface of the flour and that rubber substance (gluten) is impermeable and doesn't let water seep through the flour particles.
This water will stay in the well in the flour indefinitely! A layer of gluten under it is truly impermeable. And that impermeability is a blessing for us. Later, inside bread dough, layers of gluten won't let water or vapor pass through and the dough inflates as it bakes. We have open pores in our baked goods precisely because gluten is impermeable.
2) Blend water and flour a little with your fingers. You will obtain a rough mass which is not not like water and not like dry particles. And it doesn't flow like water or dry flour. It is not homogeneous yet . It is bumpy, not smooth. To blend water with flour to homogeneity, you would have to give it at least 300 turns.
There is no stretchiness in it at all. You cannot stretch it into a film
3) Try shaping this mass. See that it behaves like clay.
It is not stretchy at all. Gluten is not developed at all. If you pull it apart, it breaks.
4) Start mixing that piece of dough in a food processor. The first 300 turns would be blending flour and water to homogeneity - moistening the flour particles throughout.
See how in the first 10 sec there is graininess in the mass. It breaks apart into clumps.
Then there is a pick-up phase. They stick together into a single mass.
See that there is no gluten development. It is not really stretchy.
Continue mixing dough in the food processor. See how you arrive to the clean-up phase of mixing. When the dough cleans the walls of the bowl. It stretches, but very little. It gives you a thick film with holes.
So, this is usually where most Rustic methods or some popular methods 'for beginners' stop. They never develop gluten: see Artisan bread in 5 min a day, or No-knead dough as examples. The dough is barely blended and it is left to fully hydrate for an entire day with a little stretch given to it by yeast fermentation and then shaping. In the end you have an extremely rough crumb and crust and a fast staling bread:
From this moment on you will begin to see stages of gluten development. Continue mixing.
The first stage - initial gluten development (a total of 450-600 turns)
Continue mixing. See the intermediate and complete gluten development. I won't insert their images here again. See in the above commentary. Notice how moist and shiny, how well hydrated the dough particles have become! The surface of the well kneaded dough is shiny, moist, but not sticky at all.
This is it. A fully kneaded piece of dough. Fully developed gluten.
This shininess is usually needed
1) When you knead and bake in a bread machine, because there is a very short fermentation time in the machine program, so the dough is well developed right away, in the beginning of the process.
2) When you do your last punch down, the last kneading of the sandwich bread dough, where you seek very tender crust and crumb and a very good keeping quality of bread - no staling for 2-3 days, up to a week or longer if kept in a plastic bag. There gluten must be well developed by the end of the fermentation.
From that moment on you can continue to knead and visually observe the stages of gluten breakdown. You can still repair it in the initial stages of breakdown. Add a little salt to dough and it will repair itself!
The first sign of gluten breakdown is its stickiness. The dough no longer cleans up the bowl as it is being kneaded. It sticks to the walls of the bowl.
And it becomes very stretchy. Very.
Eventually, as you continue to apply more energy to dough, give it more turns, it will loose all springinesses, all elasticity and will no longer resist pulling it into a thread or a film. It will just hang passively there.
It will stick to everything, to the walls of the mixer and to the fingers. It feels like glue and it is difficult to clean.
The breakdown of gluten will happen with time as well. When your dough sits for too long in refrigerator, or even if it ferments for too long at room temp, you will see how it begins to release water. Gluten is partially destroyed and is no longer there to bind water and water will be pooling under the piece of dough in the bowl. The dough becomes soupy.
You can test any flour, Dan. Take any flour through that process: pastry flour (for nice pastry like in Napoleons and croissants, you need good gluten development), APF, Bread flours of various strengths. White flour and Whole grain flour, Wheat flour and Spelt flour, etc.
They will invariably go through the stages as you knead them, it is a universal process, but the quality of gluten and the amount of gluten each flour forms is different and you will learn to adapt to each flour as you develop your dough to achieve the desired tenderness of crumb and crust or their desired rustic, chewy, rubbery character, the desired keeping qualities etc.
My final remark is about caring "not to over knead or introduce too much oxidation". This is applicable only to the very tender and gentle European flours used for the baguette dough. They contain very little protein of special 'tender' quality (9-10% protein) and give tender crust and crumb with minimal gluten development.
All north American flours should be kneaded at least to the medium gluten development or the bread eaters will break their teeth and cut their lips with their crusts - too tough and strong (too much gluten left undeveloped).
best wishes
mariana
Hi Yippee,
I also knead in Zojirushi! : ) They are my favorite bread machines. Delonghi-Kenwood is the second best.
I don't really understand the question, because I assume you already have the formula for the bread dough. So, having kneaded your lean dough, you are ready to add the enriching ingredients, the precise amounts of them, and simply add them. As per bread formula.
Gluten breakdown due to over-mixing or overheating feels like glue on your skin. It is not just a slack or watery batch of dough, it is a piece of dough that looks and feels unwell, so to speak : ) If you can rinse it off your finger by simply placing your hand under running water, it ain't gluten breakdown.
And then even the gluten breakdown in its initial stages is very easy to repair by adding a pinch of salt to the dough. It will make it stronger just like that. La voilà!
Slack dough, on the other hand, is fortified by the usual means: by chilling it, by stretch'n'folding it (maybe refrigerate it for 30 min and give it a couple of turns - stretch'n'folds to strengthen it), by a bit of flour with vitamin C added, etc.
If some particular flour is weaker than my usual bread flour or not as absorbing and I discover that during kneading, I will immediately fortify it by a spoon of dry gluten flour or white wheat bran (absorbs water, doesn't add color or taste). Prior to kneading, I fortify it by adding vitamin C and using strictly instant yeast (not ADY or compressed), I also would switch to hard water. The dough won't be as slack.
To avoid the issue of milk negatively affecting gluten strength, I use baker's milk, it's pretreated and will give you a 25-30% higher rise in volume, stronger gluten compared to the usual liquid milk. You can also pretreat liquid milk, but it takes about 30-40 min to do that. I prefer the quicker route of dry baker's milk.
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz
Also, I make sure that I add not just oil/egg to the lean and well kneaded portion, but some of the flour in the recipe with them. I.e. when I mix the lean batch and then knead it, I don't use all the flour in the recipe. I save some for the addition with the enriching ingredients, because they dilute the dough and are better added in form of the flour paste, not liquid.
Water/milk are added to the well kneaded lean dough in a method of double hydration for super hi hydration breads, such as ciabatta, some pizzas and focaccia and fried breads. Here, the experience is your guide. Judge the dryness and water absorption quality of your flour by experience - how much is too much.
The amount of flour to set aside for the enriching additions are as follows:
for each 10 g of added sugar, oil and eggs,
I set apart 7g, 10g and 14 g of flour correspondingly.
I would add that flour from the recipe to the kneaded dough along with enriching and slacking/dough liquefying ingredients: sugars, oils and eggs.
best wishes,
mariana
Thanks for the thorough reply. I am going to try the test with my Vitamix, since the test will complete so quickly. I’ll let everyone know my results. What is the hydration for the 1 cup of flour/food processor test?
I was able to read the pages 60 - 72 in the Advanced Bread and Pastry book online as a sample reading here. https://books.google.com/books/about/Advanced_Bread_and_Pastry.html?id=JM76vm5tH38C&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button
I expected the book to be technical and over my head, but in fact is was well layed out and clearly understandable. If I wanted to purchase a book similar to this one, which would you recommend? Would this book be your first choice for an intermediate baker? By the way; for any interested this book can be rented for 6 months for $18.50 or purchased in digital format for $45.
Mariana, I‘m curious. I imagine others that don’t know you are too. Are you a baking instructor. There’s no doubt, you’ve got some serious experience and bread related education. Your replies are so thorough and well documented. I feel like I’m in class. “Inquiring minds want to know”
Dan
Dan,
how much water to add to your flour depends on how dry or moist your flour is and what sort of dough you want to knead. You can knead a piece of stiff dough or a piece of very slack dough. It doesn't matter. Gluten will be developed in both cases just as well.
I don't really know about books for an intermediate level baker. I am mostly a beginner myself, Dan. For a beginner to intermediate baker, great textbooks in English are Suas, George Rudolf, Schunemann. I consult them all the time.
Suas and Didier: Advanced Bread and Pastry
George Rudolf and Ken Sohm: The professional baking manual 4th edition
Schunemann and Treu: Baking The art and science.
In French, it is this Gerald Biremont (Pratique en boulangerie) and Conaissances de Base ().
There are great authors and textbooks in other languages as well.
No, I am not a baking instuctor. I only wanted to extend Jim Burgin a helping hand, because I was where he is now (or was yesterday) not so long ago.
best wishes, Dan
mariana
What a Lesson for Learning about Gluten! Anyone interested is visually learning about gluten would be well served to run this test. Words can't explain what you will see.
By-the-way - The test should run a total of 2 - 3 minutes. The first time I ran the processor for 45 seconds and then for 1 minute 15 seconds and lastly for 2 minutes. A total processing time of 4 minutes. Don't do that. The total processing time for the entire test should be from 2 - 3 minutes processing time.
I've never used a food processor for dough and I probably never will. Like the old timer says, " by golly it just ain't right". I miss the aesthetics of hand mixing and slow mixer kneading. BUT, IMO the food processor has shown me the light. Literally, you can see through the windowpane like never seen before. Once the gluten is developed to the max, it is super thin and strong. I'd best describe the feel and stretch similar to a very thin latex glove, but a little less elastic. No windowpane test that I've performed before came close to this.
A WORD OF CAUTION - This is a messy test. My first attempt was using 70% hydration. I used KA AP flour and it was a sloppy messy. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. It took me every bit of 20 minutes to clean up the processor. So, guess what I did. I re-ran the test. <tenacious, persistent - not super intelligent> I reduced the hydration to 62% and the test ran better.
I stopped at 2 minutes (total mix time) the this is what I got.
My first test @ 70% hydration ended up a completely obliterated dough. So I washed it in a strainer to see what would remain. Only bits of gluten.
I ran this test in order to learn more about the behavior of water mixed with flour. This test will change more about the way I think than it will about the way I bake. But, I'll bake smarter...
If seeing is believing, this test if for you.
Thanks Mariana,
Dan
Dear Dan,
your picture shows a well kneaded dough! May God bless you now and forever. You did it! Now you know : )
I am very glad that you run the experiment and shared your pictures with us. Thank you!
Not only can we clearly see in your photograph the gluten itself, we can see bubbles of air in between layers of gluten in that thin film of dough. This is very valuable for the newbies to see and to understand that kneading alone leads to increase in dough volume up to 10% just due to air trapped in the dough during mixing. And that air is necessary for the good crumb structure and consequently for the longer freshness (slow staling) of baked goods.
Sifting flour prior to mixing (to aerate it) and thorough kneading is the first step in successful baking. Thank you for the visual demonstration of that, Dan. Thank you.
mariana
Didn’t notice the bubbles. Are these bubble in between 2 layers of gluten or are they traped between the counter and the gluten film?
I’m still trying to figure you out. You claim novice baking status, but your “lectures” are more like Albert Einstein. What is the scoop?
Please stay active on the forum. Your lessons are exceptional.
Dan
Dan....I mix the dough in a bowl and let it hydrate for about 15 minutes and then transfer to the food processor bowl...I've gone up to 80 % hydration and absolutely no mess
Thank you so much for this helpful info
Thanks SO much Mariana. Over a year of seeking an answer, no one ha suggested this. I will try it!
Follow up question: About how long, and at what speed in a Kitchen Aid mixer with a dough hook would equal the levels of hand kneading you prescribe.
Happy New Year! Jim
but don’t think it does a very good job and now prefer to autolyse, hand knead then stretch and fold and utilise time to develop the gluten. what effect would an 2-3 hour autolyse have followed by hand kneading- time surely would be less? not sure I could do 25 minutes of kneading and this thread has me questioning how good my gluten development has been? I would love to achieve a thin shattering crust!
Leslie
Hi Leslie,
autolysis is basically dough at rest.
If your flour has proteolytic enzymes, then there will be some breakdown of flour protein into amino acids and kneading after such rest will be easier, it will be easier to develop gluten faster. It that sense time doesn't develop gluten. It destroys gluten. When there is less gluten, it is easier to knead. : ) That is what R. Calvel discovered originally, when he dealt with a batch of too strong flour. He discovered that giving the tough to knead dough several minutes or several hours of rest softens it enough and makes kneading easier. He called it autolysis - self-destruction of dough protein.
Otherwise, a simple rest of dough leads to more gluten in it. The gluten will be forming in dough with time For example 10 min after mixing flour and water you'd be able to wash 1 oz of gluten from 100g of flour. 2-3 hours later, you'll be able to wash about 1.2-1.5 oz of gluten from the same dough made from 100g of flour. More gluten has formed with time! So in absence of proteolysis, more time means larger amount of gluten in dough, not more gluten development (i.e. there is no stretching of gluten into thinner and thinner films) . And that is why normally we knead dough not just once, but several times as it ferments (punch downs, stretch'n'folds, etc). To continue developing gluten, kneading the additional amount of gluten formed.
Any mixer is better than no mixer. I see pictures of old Kenwood Chef mixer online and I don't see why it wouldn't develop gluten. It's a mixer. It kneads. For as long as it applies energy to the dough, it develops its gluten. The advice would be the same as for the medium size (non-professional model) of KA mixer, as I explained above.
Bread machines are superbly designed for kneading dough made from about 1 lb of flour. They are super well suited for that purpose. They develop gluten in a 1.5-2lb piece of wheat dough in 20-30 min of kneading, depending on the dough consistency and strength of flour.
mariana
it gives me much to think about, it also makes a lot of sense. will try some comparisons over next few weeks and see how it helps.
Leslie
"For example 10 min after mixing flour and water you'd be able to wash 1 oz of gluten from 100g of flour. 2-3 hours later, you'll be able to wash about 1.2-1.5 oz of gluten from the same dough made from 100g of flour."
Have you performed this experiment?
Yes, Doc.Dough. I have. Many times.
For me this test is the best way to get to know new flours and to determine whether they are suitable for artisan breads or for bread machine baking.
I haven’t heard from you in a while. I try to read everything you post...
Please elaborate more. Your statement about an ounce (28 grams) of gluten from 100g flour is not computing. And that after a longer rest the gluten wash would produce ~ 34g (estimate). Wouldn’t the protein percentage have to be at least 28-34%? What am I missing?
Also, I am under the impression that percentage of gluten can never increase above the percentage of protein.
Please help this self confessed “simpleton” to understand.
BTW - I was thrilled to see your name pop up again. I miss your input.
Danny
That line of reasoning was why I asked. But a claim of past success is enough to get me to try to replicate the result. I have a can of vital wheat gluten to test the max value and some cake flour which should set the floor.
Doc.Dough, surprisingly, in Canada our cake flour has plenty of gluten as well. My tests show 12% gluten 20 min after mixing cake flour with tap water and 28% three hours after mixing when the flour particles are already well hydrated and its proteins swell fully.
A typical European flour used for pastry, type 45/450, gives 34 -> 36 -> 40% gluten 1hr, 2hrs, 3hrs after mixing flour with water.
Let us know how much your flour gives.
best wishes,
mariana
Hi Danny,
gluten is a combination of two proteins. Altogether, there are four main proteins in wheat flour, but only two of them combine into gluten.
Also, when you wash gluten, it is not just protein, but proteins with water molecules linked to them and some impurities (starch granules trapped inside protein network, some particles of bran, etc). That is why dry gluten that we buy in stores as "vital wheat gluten" is only 75-80% protein. That is why wet gluten weighs more than the total amount of protein in flour, even though there are only 2 proteins out of 4 in it.
European flours suitable for artisan bread give 28-32g of gluten upon mixing flour with water, but about 42% after 3 hours, when proteins swell significantly (combine with water). They are not suitable for bread machines, for example, which starts kneading right after blending flour with water.
North American flours give 36-44% gluten right upon mixing with water and their gluten content rises up to 46-48% by the time the bread is baked (one, two or three hours later, depending on the chosen machine cycle). They are not good for artisan breads, for they give tough crust and tough crumb, they are better for pan breads, enriched breads, etc. where medium to intense gluten development is common.
mariana
Then I will give it a shot.
I remember we discussed this awhile back. In the cocodrillo recipe, the gluten is incredibly developed...way more than most recipes call for. Did you give it a try and how did it work? I recall that commenters remarked on the crackly crust.
Hi Bread Babies,
I have NOT tried the cocodrillo recipe. May get back to it as the quest continues. Best,
Jim Burgin
Thank you for such an informative post. I'm also on a quest for a thin, shattering crust on my breads. It has been hit or miss, but this info should help!
Hi Mariana, nice information, thanks.
Do you think then adding vital wheat gluten would help on this process?
Hi Peter,
adding vital wheat gluten will help make the crust thicker and tougher : )
More gluten = more kneading.
If your bread flour has only 9-10% protein, there is little gluten in such flour and you would have to knead less to develop gluten.
If your bread flour has 11-12-13% protein (more gluten) you would have to knead much more, longer, in order to develop gluten .
Adding vital wheat gluten increases % of protein in your flour. You would have to knead more, longer, apply more energy to your dough to develop that additional gluten.
mariana
Thanks Mariana,
It is good to hear your opinion. My understanding was completely opposite to what you said. I always had the impression that adding vital wheat gluten would make it easier to develop gluten. Now you got me thinking.... :)
Peter
It is also worth making sure you are using the highest heat possible, so that the loaf browns as quickly as possible before it starts to dry out, and maybe to try a little Dextrose powder, say 1% of the flour. This makes for a crispier crust without noticeably sweetening the loaf.
Thanks Jim for starting this, and for Mariana doing such a fabulous job explaining things!
hope it survives as it wasn’t happy at the end! will check it tomorrow. BUT an awesome experiment mariana! Did as you suggested and took 1 cup of flour and water and mixed it to shaggy. then blitzed in the processor - this is hard on it I think! the end result was a dough which gave very thin window pane!! it held its shape when dumped on the bench too - the kind of swirls accidentally produced stayed there (a bit like merengue does) when I scooped it out onto the bench. I have to rethink my mixing and folding techniqes so I get much much more strength!
thank you Jim for starting this thread, and mariana for such help clear advice...
Leslie
Leslie, that is wonderful. Good for you!
I think that the food processor best suited for kneading is Cuisinart 4Qt model. I use it all the time and in 10 years of faithful service it hasn't betrayed me once. It is unbreakable. It successfully kneads dough from 1 lb of flour. If there is more dough, I simply break it into smaller pieces and knead each piece separately. Each takes a minute-minute and a half. It is very fast and convenient, really : )
The only precaution to take concerns not the machine, but the dough itself. The dough should be protected from overheating. I blend water and ice if I plan to knead in a food processor. Then by the end of kneading the dough has the perfect desired temperature, required by the recipe.
Thank you for being so immediate and practical. Thanks for testing this method and seeing gluten being developed with your own eyes. It's awesome.
Once you develop gluten, you can fold dough for as many times as it pleases you. Folds simply trap large bubbles of air inside layers of gluten, they create a very rustic looking open crumb many people like in their baguette, ciabatta or pizza slice. I fold only once or twice after kneading - to give dough strength, and I thoroughly squeeze out all bubbles, because I actually avoid big holes in crumb. I seek even, silky looking crumb in my loaves.
mariana
Hi, Mariana:
I usually knead the dough to the "complete" stage and assume the dough is strong at that point. Therefore, I rarely bother to fold after kneading. But is my assumption correct? Thank you.
Yippee
Yippee, you truly are a gem. You touch upon some very important subjects in dough quality : )
Dough strength is a direct result of THREE factors: ingredient selection, mixing, and fermentation (mechanical dough manipulation during fermentation is in here too).
You mention mixing (kneading) and assume that once well kneaded, the dough is (sufficiently) strong. Yes and no. It usually depends on the kind of crumb and crust you are seeking and also on the final volume and the silhouette of your bread that you want to achieve and whether you bake it on hearth or in a pan, what kind of cuts or cracks you want to see on its surface and how you want them to open, etc.
The same lean dough, equally well kneaded, will give me either even and fluffy crumb and the crust that stretches in a perfect roundness, doesn't crack or break during baking or a more textured slice with uneven pores and more rustic looking crust with breaks and cracks depending on that additional bit of strength.
For this loaf the dough was kneaded only, No further manipulation, no stretch'n'fold after kneading. No preshaping, no shaping. I simply dumped a piece of fermented dough into the pan and let it rise and baked it. This gives dough a very stretchy surface (not as strong a surface) so it doesn't break as it bakes and a very even soft crumb.
Here's the same dough but a different loaf. After kneading I stretched the dough and folded it and tightened it into a ball. After fermentation I preshaped it and then shaped it. So it is bolder and more rustic looking. The crust is still crispy thin and easy on the teeth, but it has a different character, because the dough was stronger due to stretch'n'folds.
Stretching, folding and tucking it into a tight ball also allows me to judge the level of gluten development. I cannot really judge the thinnes of the dough film when I stretch it. But the surface of the ball of dough tells me volumes; the number of blisters and how transparent and how large or how small they are tell me about gluten development and whether the dough is ready to give me a good loaf of bread or not.
So yes, having given our piece of dough an honest kneading we might just stop at that. Or not. Further mechanical manipulation as it ferments might add more strength to it and help us achieve the perfect loaf : )
Here's what Michael Suas has to say about that (see the entire section on dough strength in his book on pp 106-110).
mariana
Wish I could give you a hug! Since I can't do that, more
Thank you!
Yippee
Mariana..I have used a food processor to develop gluten and within 2 minutes I had beautiful smooth developed dough....it works...ice water is must I also put my flour in the freezer to chill it also...the dough gets warm very quickly...thank you for all your knowledge and well written easy to understand posts....cheers
I am glad, Kernman.
I don't chill flour, but I do use cold water and adjust dough consistency with ice cubes or shaved ice/snow.
Remember as well, that you don't have to knead to full gluten development right away, for full two minutes. You can give it one minute. Then let it ferment and punch down inside food processor, by kneading it again, etc.
This way you would never overheat your dough and you will develop gluten incrementally.
Also, not all food processors can handle dough, really. Mostly Cuisinart and Magimix are very good for it. Other brands are not powerful enough.
best wishes
mariana
I have an old-school Cuisinart 7 quart...it's bullet proof