January 4, 2017 - 3:37am
Khorasan (Kamut) with long fermentation
I'm thinking of doing a no knead bread using Khorasan.
The recipe will be something like this...
500g kamut flour (100%)
375g water (75%)
10g salt (2%)
5g starter (1%)
This is a variation of the "Do Nothing Bread" where you mix the dough and bulk ferment for 24 hours, giving one fold at the 12 + hour mark. Then a shape and final proof for one hour.
This works very well for an all bread flour recipe (or a mix of whole wheat and bread flour albeit with higher hydration of up to 90%). My question is... how would khorasan flour fare with a long bulk ferment? I believe that khorasan is a type of ancient durum wheat and I think durum wheat wouldn't fare so well with this method due to how quickly the flour degrades.
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I worked with home-milled kamut (Khorasan) a few years ago. It had a few interesting characteristics to learn about.
It has a lovely color and flavor-golden and nutty. But the quality of the gluten was very loose-any 100% kamut loaf I made was very flat, unless supported by a pan. Very extensible. It became a favorite for pizza dough or any other flat loaf I made.
Additionally, it went from underproofed to overproofed in about 5 minutes. If you didn't catch it, it was likely to collapse when it hit the oven.
At the time I worked with kamut, I was not into extensive autolysing or long retards. However, I would concur that it may not be amenable to those procedures. I guess the only way to find out is to do a few bakes and see.
I believe you have worked with spelt. Doesn't that have similar characteristics?
Sidenote:
Lechem, I am so glad you post such detailed info on your experiences with different ingredients. The more I read and the limited experience I have with ancient grains, the more I understand why modern wheat became immediately popular with bakers. It is so much easier to work with to achieve any type of bread you may want- crusty, soft, chewy, light, robust, fluffy,etc. But all the grains have great attributes and it would be so sad to lose any of them. When I work with a new (to me) grain, it is like opening a gift when the loaf is done-even if it takes a few times to learn its attributes.
I have worked with Khorasan before but it would be my first time doing it with a very long bulk ferment. My concern is not the over fermenting as I believe 1% starter will give me plenty of time and it's the final proofing one needs to be more careful with as I think it would proof quicker (note: I make a differentiation in terminology between fermenting and final proofing even though one is a product of the other, i.e. over proofing doesn't necessarily mean it's over fermented and all is lost but one can simply knock back, shape and proof again).
I'm worried about the flour degrading. Flour will degrade when mixed with water. This is what happens when it turns to goo. It loses all structure and the gluten is broken down. I know that durum wheat rimacinata degrades quickly and I believe that khorasan is an ancient durum wheat so I'm not sure if the same applies.
I think that khorasan wheat has such an amazing flavour and the smell of it baking is really awesome. I made one over the weekend and it was excellent. I did it in a pan as I agree with you that it does struggle with height and will spread. Although I have done it freestanding before but just be prepared for flatter loaves.
I do try my best to share experiences :)
I'm sorry but i don't know khorosan flour but i know durum wheat ( semola rimacinata in italy )
I believe that the best results you mixing them...curious aspect experts khorasan.
Ciao
Gaetano
I also love khorasan. If you can get hold of some then I'm sure you'll love it too. Such a wonderfully nutty, slightly sweet flour. The smell of khorasan baking is really wonderful. I can see how this grain would make great pizza bases and biscuits too.
Hope you get to try it.
P.s. I do like to mix however I also like to do "pure" single flour breads to really appreciate the qualities that a flour has to give.
Kamut so I can't really help you.
I am looking forward to your results though. I say just go for it, worse case is it doesn't work well but you'll probably still have something edible! LOL :)
Good luck
Ru
See what turns out. Will be fun and as you say it will be edible. Might be really tasty even if not a nice shaped loaf.
Highly recommended if you can get hold of some.
Last year I was playing a lot with khorasan flour and got different results.
First of all - if you plan to bake with 100% whole grain khorasan you will get quite different results than baking with a mixture of whole grain khorasan and white khorasan flour. I found many different types of khorasan white flour on the market and some of them were really great and I could get excellent results like the loaf on this picture.
Actually the gluten was like working with a strong bread flour. I also had opportunity to buy good khorasan in grain and milled it at home and it was simply great. But I also got some whole grain khorasan flour that was hardly usable.
Gluten in khorasan flour is a tricky one and the dough ferments faster and when over fermented it will start tearing and be become quite wet and sticky. And it ferments really quickly so you must watch the signs of dough all the time.
Hare are my posts on TFL about baking with khorasan (kamut)
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49805/world-bread-day-2016-100-kamut-white-flour-sd
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49150/38-wholegrain-kamut-sdyw-combo
Right now I am in BF phase of a mixture of flours and this time I have about 30% of white khorasan flour as part of mixture.
I did 100% whole grain khorasan bread but was not completely satisfied with it although it was quite good with a decent oven spring but could be much better.
I wish you a good play with khorasan and big success. Happy baking!
Joze
Lovely loaves and the boule photo has a great crust with blisters. Very nice!
The variety readily available in the UK is Kamut. I think there are others but this is most common and the sole distributer (I think) for this particular brand is Dove's Farm. Every single batch I have bought from them has turned out to be the highest standard. I haven't ever seen white khorasan here but I'm only too pleased with the wholegrain. It's so soft for a wholegrain flour and lovely to work with. Looks like golden sand.
This sounds like it behaves as Durum Wheat flour and thank you for the warning. I've had durum wheat flour degrade and go south on me very quickly. It can turn from a lovely dough into a mess in a short time. I shall watch out for that. I might go ahead with the long fermentation (It tastes so good that I'm wondering how much better when increasing fermentation time with dropping the starter %) and go for 0.5% starter.
I would sacrifice some oven spring for that flavour. I think a loaf tin it shall be if that is the case.
Thanks for the advice and links.
- Abe
Abe, just a sentence to clarify: when I was proofing high percentage kamut dough the dough after a while started tearing on the surface. This was either result of over fermentation or just the problem of under developed gluten. This kind of phenomena I noticed only with kamut.
When I discussed baking with kamut with a professional baker, a really good one, he complained that he always ended up with over proofed or even over fermented dough and therefore stopped thinking to include kamut bread into his offer.
After many attempts I was able to get decent results but never as good as with other types of flour. Definitely it is a challenge.
I also used Chad's 60% wholegrain kamut recipe from his second book and that was much better. Now I use kamut from time to time just to add some kind of sweet kamut flavor to the mixture of flours.
Since I started using Trevor's scoop&stretch method the result was much better due to well developed gluten.
Joze
Hi Joc,
I'm so glad to have found your post as I feel like I'm in a world of khorasan love and I'm so confused about the difficultly I'm having with wholemeal khorasan. I've got quite a lot on my hands and I've tried quite a few things but really never had any success. I'm back at it and trying an approach like for semolina today. Pre soaking with only a 30% whole meal khorasan mix (only pre soaking the khorasan and not the white bakers'). Now reading your post, I'm thinking it's going to be another disaster. What is going on?
I did wonder if it was a difference between white and wholemeal khorasan. I'm still at beginnings of understanding the effects of starches and brans, but what does this mean about khorasan that the wholemeal is so different, I wonder? Anyway, hoping that this loaf taste less like cardboard and potato.
let me know if you have any more wisdom in the 4 years since your post,
f
Hi Bakers - I'd like to clarify the difference between KAMUT® Brand Khorasan wheat and generic Khorasan wheat. Khorasan wheat sold under the KAMUT® trademark is always grown organically and always meets certain nutrition and quality standards. Whenever I hear complaints about flour quality, it almost always turns out that the user has the generic Khorasan wheat, not the quality controlled KAMUT® wheat.
KAMUT® Brand khorasan is an organic, non-genetically modified, ancient wheat variety similar to durum. In 1990, “KAMUT” was registered as a trademark by the Quinn family in order to support organic farming and preserve the ancient khorasan wheat variety. Under the KAMUT® Brand name, this khorasan wheat must always be grown organically, never be hybridized or modified, and contain high levels of purity and nutrition. Today, Kamut International owns and has registered the KAMUT® trademark in over 40 countries, and is responsible for the protection and marketing of all KAMUT® Brand khorasan wheat throughout the world.
Kamut International promotes and protects the KAMUT® brand name by focusing efforts on supply chain integrity, trademark monitoring, research, education, marketing, and customer relations. These activities are supported in part, through a no-cost trademark license agreement with companies using the grain in products they manufacture and /or sell. The trademark license agreement facilitates establishing a supply chain that can be reviewed, thus ensuring the integrity and purity of the grain.
KAMUT® wheat is grown on dryland certified organic farms primarily in Montana, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. Khorasan wheat is distinctive because it is about two and half times larger than regular durum wheat, is elongated with a pronounced “hump,” and is uniquely vitreous, with a rich golden color. The grain is prized by consumers who appreciate the grain for its high energy nutrition, easy digestibility, nutty/buttery taste, and firm texture. KAMUT® khorasan wheat is higher in protein, lipids, selenium, amino acids, and Vitamin E than most modern wheat and contains essential minerals such as magnesium and zinc. It is used as whole grain berries, whole grain flour, white flour, flakes, and puffs to make a variety of products. Some specific benefits of using KAMUT® khorasan are receiving more nutrients, protein, and taste than most commonly consumed whole wheat - plus supporting organic agriculture and helping to preserve an ancient grain.
My kind regards - Jamie
Jamie Ryan Lockman | Regional Director – North America
Kamut International, Ltd.
P.O. Box 4903 | Missoula, MT 59806 | USA
406.251.9418 phone | 406.251.9420 fax
jamie.lockman@kamut.com | www.kamut.com