Estimating the Percentage of Levain in your Dough Recipe
How much levain should I use in my dough based on how long I need to bulk ferment, and how long I choose to proof, and what flours I’m using, and what hydration level I have, and… and… and…?
Is there a chart or something one could reference that would enable the reader to get an idea of about what percentage of levain they should use in their dough to achieve predictability in final proofing times?
I know temperature is a factor, as are all of those things I mentioned above, so it would need to be something that has all of these variables expressed as fields that, when populated, would give an estimate of the percentage of levain to use. A spreadsheet, or database, or…?
Or is something like this even possible, based on there being too many “live” variables? By “live” I mean living things like yeast and LAB, or variations in humidity in your baking environment.
Is to follow recipes till you get the feel for it. Giving an exact time is difficult as one should watch the dough and not the clock but recipes do put you in the ball park. Obviously more starter and higher temperature speeds things up. Vice versa slows things down. It depends on your starter too. Some have quicker starters and other slower. When I was first starting off I stuck to 10, 20 and 30% starter.
10% got me a through the night bulk ferment. So I'd finish kneading just before bed to carry on in the morning. About 8-10 hours.
20% 6-8 hours.
30% 4-6 hours.
I don't go by this anymore, rather by feel, but you can always rely in doubling for the bulk ferment till you get to know the dough. Once you do then it doesn't necessarily have to double.
Hope this helps.
hi Lechem,
what are your thoughts on making this a 3 step process, meaning the starter is 1st, then make a sponge that would include my starter (anywhere between 22-25% of the bread dough) and a portion of flour and water from the amounts used in the recipe; and the 3rd - the bread dough. from my reaearch, sponge improves the end result.
or just to used the starter directly in the bread dough?
in my first attempt, I am planning to bake sourdough focaccia.
i would appreciate your take on this! Thank you!
If you make a sponge with your starter and preferment that then you've created more starter. Whatever the prefermented flour that goes into the final dough to leaven the bread is the starter. E.g.
500g flour
300g water
8g salt
100g starter
(20% starter)
If you take off 100g flour and 100g water from the recipe to make a sponge with the 100g starter then you now have...
400g flour
200g water
8g salt
300g starter
(75% starter)
The timings and flavour of the final dough will differ.
How's Stella coming along?
I agree 100% with your thoughts, as in my mind, I could not differentiate between a starter and a sponge - it did look like a larger amount of starter. And To will probably change timing as the mire prefermented flour is in the dough, the faster the bread dough will rise. Am I correct? I don't really think I should speed up this process. I think, keeping starter percentage of the whole amount of dough is a bit over 20% and sufficient enough.
Now i I am thinking that maybe the difference between a sponge and a starter is that the sponge has also other ingredients? And also maybe it's made with dry yeast amd not with starter. However, I did see the 3-step process described and it sounded just Ike you said - more starter.
And about the progress with Stella. Yesterday morning, I saw a few little but definite bubble, and thought, Stella woke up; I saw no increase in size. I made the scheduled feeding at 1:1:1 ratio with 50:50:50 g of each. Throughout the day, I saw a bit more bubbles. And when I was stirring it, I saw some inside the starter too. I repeated the feeding the same way last night. This morning, I did not see any difference in size, but again just a few bubbles. I guess it's a positive change going a a slow speed at this point. Right?
thank you so much!
Are all similar things with some being used interchangeably.
Poolish and Biga are both sponges. These are preferments using some of the flour and water from a yeasted recipe. Used to improve flavour and texture.
Starter and Levain get used interchangeably and are associated with sourdough. The starter you keep going indefinitely is normally called the mother starter. A preferment aka Levain build is taken from the mother starter but when they go into the dough they become the starter. It's just how each one is used but at the end if the day they are the same thing. It you take 20g from your mother starter and build a Levain of 100g with it the recipe doesn't have 20g starter but 100g starter. Depending on how you like to manage and use your starter (or mother starter) you can either feed your mother starter then take some off to use or take some off, feed it (build a preferment) and then use it. The difference between a 6 and two 3's.
Taking some off to build a Levain has some advantages. You can build to different requirements all the while keeping your mother starter how you like it. Say you keep a 100% hydration bread flour mother starter but the recipe asks for 80% hydration whole wheat Levain then taking some off to build with allows you to keep the mother starter as 100% hydration bread flour and you can make from that an 80% hydration whole wheat Levain.
I'm using different words for the same thing so it's easier to understand.
It also allows you to not keep too much mother starter at any one time. You can keep it in the fridge and not have to feed it everytime you make bread. You just need to take some off each time then when it runs low you can feed it again. You won't find yourself building too much and needing to discard. It also enables you to keep one starter and make different breads from that instead of keeping many starters. Stops mistakes being made like using all your starter in your dough forgetting to keep some back, etc. However having said that there are some who do bake often, keep their starter on the kitchen worktop, feed it often and take from that to out in their recipe. So it all depends on how you like to use it. Since a starter is a preferment then any preferment that goes into your recipe is the starter at the end if the day. The more you preferment the higher the ratio the quicker the bread with different results.
Your starter sounds as if it's waking up. Keep in stirring and perhaps skip one feed if not much action. If after 12 hours there's nothing much happening, just a few bubbles, then give it two or three teaspoons of fresh flour and see how it fares 12 hours later. Should it show more signs of life then resume feed 1:1:1.
while I was replying to you, I got your detailed answer. Thank you so so much!
And when adding just a bit of flour to my awakening starter, i should not add any water right?
When your starter is ready I suggest finding a recipe for sourdough focaccia. Getting to know your starter and how it works is the first step. Following recipes will help. After that you can experiment.
At this stage just add a little extra flour. If you think it's too thick then a drop of water too. But I shouldn't think a teaspoon or two will offset anything too much. Give it a good stir and see how it is tonight.
sounds great, i added 2 heaped tsp of flour. I'll be stirring the starter occasionally and watch whats happening!
thank you very much!
And check it tonight. Perhaps take a before and after photo for me.
so after I fed 2-3 tsp of flour and 1/2 tsp of water, I stirred well and took a picture.
I am not sure how to add a picture to an existing thread... I will start a new topic and add an image...
A new topic is better I think. We've hijacked this one. Take another tonight and I'll see now it's doing. I'm in the UK so there will be a delay as it'll be early morning here. If there is an apoarent improvement tonight then feed. If not, then wait.
lol we did indeed hijacked it...
ok, sounds like a plan...and sure, please, take a look whenever you have a chance, i appricuate your help greatly! Thank you!
Thank you for this.
So poolish and biga are the sponge methods, French and Italian respectively, and are different in thickness. But both use dry yeast. That's not what I am going to do. I want to use my sourdough starter. i just have to decide whether I want to make it with starter at over 20% of the dough or to add more flour and water and increase the amount of starter, that maybe anywhere close to 30-40%. Aside of timing differences, how will this influence texture and flavor of the bread?
if we are talking about sourdough bread, I like it with think crispy crust and soft opened up crumb (moderately chewy, not to much through), similar to what I saw in one of Susan's recipes.
but the first bread I intend to make is the sourdough focaccia. I love this type of bread and want to make it in sourdough style.
thank you so much for all you thoughts and knowledge you share with me.