September 24, 2016 - 1:03pm
more holes than bread- help!
hi- I'm hoping for some help from all you experienced bakers! my bread lately has been turning out with a slightly dense crumb and great big holes. I read the other post from Danni3ll3 about big holes, and don't think mine are a result of shaping (though I could be wrong- still learning all this!). I've been using the Tartine bread method and recipe, and don't use oil in the bowl where I turn the dough during fermentation. any thoughts or suggestions? (I posted this question in the other thread, but think it may have gotten lost at the bottom of the comments, so sorry for the double- post!). it still tastes good, just not the vision of loveliness I'm striving for!
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I dont do tartine but I'm sure many are going to suggest degassing before you preshape. I used to be afraid to degas because i was afraid of killing all the bubbles but the final rise should produce nice even crumb without extra large bubbles and often times at the crust edges which is another interesting thing is that your large bubbles are in the middle making me think that mavbe there's some dry flour trapping inside as well. All the more reason to get a little (just a little) aggressive to ensure a uniform dough ;)
A sign the dough wasn't ready for d´shaping and proofing. Ferment a little longer. Do another set of folds or something to encourage more fermentation. :)
Agreed. Although not underproofed to a faulty point (as the bread is totally cooked and has a cooked texture), were it proofed more, it would have a better, more uniform texture.
I think MiniOven might be more on- the dough is pretty slack when I do my initial shaping, rest, and final shaping- not much there to degas! Most of it's 'life' seems to come from oven-spring. Guess I need to learn more patience!
I will add one (of many!) very useful things I learned from this site is the Magic Bowl effect. Thing is, I didn't want to be relegated to boules- I wanted more of an oblong loaf- so my husband helped me with some aluminum flashing and pop-rivets, and I made my own rectangular 'magic bowl.' I spray the inside with some water, and the first time I used it, I got my first ear.
Just wanted to thank all the bakers on this site for sharing their information. Here's my (used and now slightly discolored!) 'magic hat' and one of my (holey) loaves.
Sadly those holes, especially the really big ones, don't have much flavor. Mini is on to something with the more folds and fermenting required then degas for the pre-shape....and don't skip it.
Happy baking
more folds, more patience. I'm still learning how the dough needs to feel before moving on to the next step(s).
Thank you all for the advice!
Since this is an older post, I'm not sure if you guys will see it, but I wanted to everyone above for the spot on advice. I finally got to make some bread this weekend (stupid work keeps getting in the way of baking...), and let the fermentation go an extra hour, keeping up my bread folding every half hour, and degassed as best I could. The loaf came out much more well expanded and such a way better texture. I feel like I've turned a corner with my sourdough baking- thanks guys!! I still need to work on ears! ;-)
Might even try for another hour or two as seasonal temperatures drop. Can push some of the early folds to later after the dough starts to puff up from fermentation. :)
And skip the first folds until I see some puffing? I was turning the dough every half hour from the start, but it's OK to let that initial period of fermentation hang out for (an hour?) before starting periodic folding?
Not too much seasonal temp drop for me- I'm in Florida. Heat and humidity until Christmas! :-)
Never let a dough rob you of your beauty sleep! ...well at least try not to. We last longer than the dough or bread so we have to take care of ourselves even more!
Yes, skip those first folds unless the dough is extreme wet or you want to feel the dough, no excitement in lifeless feeling dough but you can "feel" if gas is building. The amount of preferment or sourdough culture in the dough will also influence the rise but generally the first few hours of a bulk rise, like the first few hours after feeding a culture is just a waiting period. In the beginning I too was folding all the time until I realised I could be doing other things at the same time and there wasn't any real difference.
Mark in your recipe about how long it takes to start rising. Date it. (I add location and season too) About a third risen is when I do my first folding on say a 70% hydration dough. It's a good folding point because if you want to retard the loaf in the refrigerator with or without shaping, it works out well and you see immediate results from the folding. Fermentation speeds up after this point and the dough needs more folding until the final fold and rise.
Some space their folds by the clock, I will set a timer but I don't always go by it. I look and feel the dough. If it seems to be slumping or spreading out then do another set of folds, if still slumped, do another until I feel the tension in the dough holding itself. Then cover and do something else but come back sooner. Yeast multiplies quickly so the time between folds gets shorter. As the dough gets more puffy, I tend to not only fold the dough but tuck under the corners and shape it nicely into a dome and cover. A final shape should be done before you feel the dough loosing the integrity you put into it. If you pre-shape the dough (tucking under the corners and giving it a nice round shape) you can switch gears quickly and go straight into shaping the final dough 10 minutes later. Just flatten out (top side down) and roll it up pinching the seam shut. Then let it rise in a dusted banneton ( to flip out later) or a parchment lined bowl or pan for direct transfer to the oven.
Mini- you are stupendous. Thank you for taking the time to write all that down and spell out things you have learned. Being in this first full year of sourdough bread baking, I've been a slight slave to recipes and instructions, but of late have gotten a little more comfortable with adjusting times, trying to make the bread fit my schedule and not vice versa. It sounds like a bread diary is in order- dates, times, temps of house and dough...!
I have been doing a pre-shape, then rest for 20- 30 min, then into a dusted, cloth lined banneton (recipe is 75% hydration). This is where I've tried throwing it in the fridge overnight to see if I get more flavor. If I retard it in the fridge overnight, how long should I leave it out on the counter before baking? The book I have says to just take it out while the oven pre-heats, but that isn't enough time for it to even entirely get to room temperature. This is where I get a little scared to try things on my own too much, because after 3 days of getting the bread ready, I'd hate to ruin it now! It leaps up with oven-spring after only being out during the pre-heat, but maybe I'd do better to give it more warm-up time before the oven?
Mostly it sounds like I just need to bake more often to get a better feel for the dough as it reaches critical stages. My neighbors thank you. :-)
While pre.heating, zap the dough in the microwave. Set it at defrost with (if I remember right) with 20% power for 2 to 3 minutes at a time with a few minutes rest and rotate between zapping. A few zaps is amazing what it does to open up the crumb and get a little more rise out of cold or slow dough. Always hard to judge cold dough when to send into the baking oven but it warms up fast in there.
Don't think about the 3 days, if you only add up the hands on time and not the waiting, it's a lot less. 3 days seems like a lot. Can you shorten that? What*s your MO (method of operation) with the starter?
I wouldn't have thought to use the microwave, but I guess on defrost, it would be OK!
I heard some TV chef-type once describe bread as, More wait than work, to which I agree. The 3 day issue was only meant as, after such anticipation of making and waiting for some delicious homemade bread, when it doesn't turn out is such a let-down! We just replaced our oven this past Sunday. The old one was possessed. After coddling my bread to get it to the oven, the convection would turn on by itself and you'd open the oven to find a black, charred mass in there. So disappointing!
My usual MO is set up a poolish overnight (not sure if the terms I'm using are the precise ones, so forgive me!), the next morning mix in most of the flour(s) (bread flour plus a small amount of wheat, or the last one, rye), autolyse. Then add salt and a smidge of water, mix, and start fermentation- 3 (now 4!) hrs, turning every half hour (or now, after an hour or so into it!), then turn out, rest 20 min +/-, then shape and proof in banneton, 2+ hrs. I've played once or twice of putting them in the fridge after placing in the bannetons, then overnight to try and get more flavor (there's the 3 days). So really, 2 days is the norm. And mixing up the poolish the night before is hardly worth counting as 'a day,' I admit!
I can understand using it to bring out flavour for a 100% white wheat dough but when adding more flavourable flours the next day, I don't see any benefit, possibly causing problems with the crumb later on if the poolish is fermenting too long. A poolish is basically half water/white wheat flour and a tiny pinch of instant yeast. most often half of the recipe flour. Consider skipping it if adding rye or ... shorten the time to 4 to 6 hrs if using any Whole wheat in the poolish. (or if overnight, chill it or use ice water overnight if you have temps over 72°F. Just some ideas to help the crumb and lift those loaf "shoulders" off the baking surface.
See, I knew poolish wasn't the right word. This is a mix of 90 g each of water, flour (a 50-50 mix of white and wheat), and a tablespoon of starter. That's what I let brew on my counter overnight before assembly the next morning. Those ratios are for (2) 1 kg loaves.
No baking for a few days- bugged out of town to escape hurricane Matthew. More later.
Thanks once again for such detailed advice and support!
and some flour with you. Mix a lot of flour into the starter to stiffen it up for the duration. Or treat someone to an unexpected loaf.
So you made a levain or a sourdough starter or a sourdough build.