September 8, 2016 - 8:21am
Overproof, poor shaping or poor cutting?
Any help very appricciated! Used to get nice ears and a beautiful spread on my loaves. But no more! Here I'm quite happy with flavour. But why no ear? I don't think it is overproofed..
Formula for 4 loaves:
1200g wheat
400g whole wheat
800g sifted spelt
400g liquid rye/wheat starter
1700-1750g water
50g salt
FDT 22-25 celcius
Start at 17.00 o'clock
1h auto, a few slap and folds after adding salt and starter, bulk for 3h - in 27c room, with tartine method folds. Short bench before stitch. Then retard in very cold fridge, 2-6c. Bake in afternoon on stone with good amount of steam.
Cheers!
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Did you score down the middle of the dough or to one side?
How did you hold the blade?
It looks like a perpendicular held blade, lightly cut down the middle -- not a known one for making ears. If that's how it was scored, then you got what you scored for.
Did you get ears before with that amount of spelt retarded? Hard to keep a tight shape with spelt dough as it likes to stretch and relax the dough so much. The crumb reminds me more of a Ciabatta and I seldom see ears on those babes.
Hi mini! I hold it at an angle. I start in the center of one end, a slight curve across and end up in the center of the other end. Will try and add another photo right away. So in my opinion, I didn't get what I scored for! ;)
I have gotten ears on them before. Big ones! Even with full grain spelt. I add a photo of that too. Btw, this is swedish flours, so lower protein than some NA ones.
Thanks
I'm not an expert by any means byt in my opinion it's most likely poor shaping, and maybe a bit of overproofing. A lot of my breads look like that, and Ive had some loaves that turn out beautifully, but I think in my experience a slightly drier dough, or at least a drier skin (a dusting of flour from a sieve or powdered-sugar-sifter right before making the score helps) helps make a clean cut and I think that goes a long way towards ears even if your dough is pretty slack.
I think it's something like, upward, ballooning rise comes from proper shaping and dough development, but the ears themselves on the crust are a matter of the cut being precise.
Of the two photos I replied to, just from looking at bread enough and making my own: the top photo is overproofed, youve made the score but the dough didnt have enough strength to fill out and balloon up. Either it's too acidic and the gluten was weakened, or the yeast had begun to slow down too much and the dough didnt get that powerful spring.
In the second photo, you have a really nice spring, you can see that the dough pushed up through the score so even though you didnt have ears, you can see where the dough has stretched and expanded as it baked. So in the second photo I think the fact that you didnt have ears comes down to the cut being imprecise: maybe too heavy, too deep into the dough, or not the exact angle respective to the surface of the dough. But in the first photo I think it's a combination of all three.
To be honest, I'm always learning something when it comes to bread, Im not very good at it. It's very simple to make, and it's hard to RUIN bread--as long as it's leavened you've got something. But it's also really hard to make the "perfect loaf". The variables become more and more precise the harder you look at them* and I dont make bread often enough that I can really take a super scientific approach to it so it's this somewhat idyllic, organic process where I can only do something one loaf at a time and learn what happens when I do something one way, and I make a note of how it responded for the next time. But that's the charm of it, to me. That's the challenge that keeps you coming back.
*(flour, water, salt, yeast becomes temperature, time, ingredient percentages which can be broken further down into dough temperature, ambient temperature, baking temperature, kneading time, bulk fermentation time, proofing time, baking time, ingredient composition: acids, proteins, sugar and starch content.... and on and on)
Luckily I'm able to bake everday. In this case its frustrating because I'm happy with the flavour, the crumb and even the rise(more or less at least, I dont like it when it rises too much. I like the 'heavy, fat' kinda look of a loaf. What Im missing is the color firstly, then the ear "spread" (cringe?).
Care to explain the best angle or technique to cut?
The bottom loaf was, believe it or not, proofing in their baskets from sat night untill the following Tuesday afternoon. However with 50/50 wheat, sifted spelt. No whole wheat. Yes, a diffrent recipe, but same amount of spelt, same bulk. Much longer retard.
shortening the bulk? Keeping notes on the proofing temp? Could be a slight temp increase which would after a long retard be showing up as your variable. The dough is being retarded with more fermentation than previously.
Water temp tends to bounce this time of year. I would keep a sharp eye on it and the dough temp.
Have you been sneaking up the bake temps? Perhaps the crust has set too early. Just a thought. Might try reducing the oven temp to see what it does on a separate bake.
i still drool over the loaves no matter what's going on. They all look so good to me! :)
Thanks mini. Good advice. Pretty you are on the money on all points. I'm gonna lower the amount of spelt. And keep a closer eye on temperatures and time. Got one proofing now actually. Will post tomorrow or so.
Thanks again :) the temp has always been the same actually. Its an industrial convection oven with steam(rational) . Quite powerful. Theres basically no coloration the first 15 minutes, full steam and no fan. I think the rise problem mostly has to do with the spelt. A Little bit with overfermenting on top of that...
It might have something to do with the starter I guess, but its feed twice per day, seven times a week. Nice big bubbles when I use it. The darker loaves is what I really like. Ive noticed that it had to be well fermented. Long retard definitely helps aswell.
if you change too many variables at one time, you may never find out what to tweak. Change only one thing at a time. Either the bulk ferment or the oven temp or the dough temp or reduce the spelt (that would be the last on my list).
Since you are dealing with a very specific bulk time, that would be the first thing I might change making it shorter, keeping everything else the same. Try reducing by 15 min.
But if you are already proofing, you might want to try turning down the oven temp first and letting it bake longer for the dark crust.
I am not sure if this straight cut down the middle is the look you were going for, but it is overproofed for a cut like that.
Devoyniche - thanks will try this.
Suave - Im not really trying to go down the middle. Aiming for more of a smiley :) Maybe I'm not happy enough. But I'll try colder water I think. Thanks!
Mini
Lets say I dont care about the ear as much as the color. How can I make it darker? I'm baking it now at 235c for 10 minutes no fan, full steam, 15 min 235c high fan full steam and 10 min at 200 high fan no steam.
I didnt bake the bread today (It's for a restaurant, so lots of baking). It'll be baked at a lower temp tomorrow!
after the main burst of oven spring to get it darker. 25 minutes of steam seems too long to me and shortening it by 5 minutes will still keep the shine. The crust needs to dry out to get the colour so be sure to release the steam. And keep the same temp.
If you shortened the fermenting time (or lowered the water temp) to prevent over-proofing, keep the bake the same as before.
Mini
Sorry for late reply. Came down with the most obnoxious fever! Yikees! All good now though,
I did try a few things. I believe the lack of ear and gringe was mostly my cutting. Kept it much more parallel this time.I also lowered the intial temperature. This helped the bread open up alot more. After 14 minutes, when the bread seemed not to be moving anymore, I turned up the heat and turned of the steam. And this way I got a really nice color.
Didn't snap a photo this time unfortunatly. Thanks everyone for helping!
Morning all,
Tom, did you have any luck on nailing baking sourdough in the Rational? I've been getting such inconsistent results with it, majority of the time I get bread looking like yours. I'll post some images when I'm back on a computer, but tbh this is the most infuriating oven I've ever worked with but its free for me to use so I'd love to be able to get it sorted.
I have once got an amazing ear, but haven't been able to replicate that. Recipe wise the same dough produces the most amazing ear in my home oven in a DO.
Akhil
Sure! One of the things was probably a dull blade when scoring. The rational oven is a bit tricky at first, but I do get consistent results, with a nice opening and bloom without problems. The settings I use work for me, in terms of crust and Color. But you can change this for a lighter or darker crust. The important thing is the fan setting and steam.
First 13 minutes, 210c, full steam, lowest fan setting(1).
Then let the steam out, change to 235c and no 3 fan setting, 17min
Then down to 200c, same fan, for 10 min. Or when Color looks good.
Note: when preheating, use normal fan settings and full steam. I preheat for 15 min only. Rational gets hot fast.
Post pics later if you can!