My 1st Tartine country loaf and 2nd try baking bread...
I just baked my first Tartine country loaf, and while I was pleasantly surprised at the result, (it was only my 2nd time baking bread), I thought I had missed on several qualities I had wanted in this bread and now wonder how I might approach my next try any differently.
I pretty much stuck to the recipe in Robertson's "Tartine Bread", though scaling quantities by half since I baked just a single loaf. The only deviations were the use of an unlined cane Banneton and a 9 hr. retarded fermentation prior to baking (vs. Robertson's 2-3 hrs. room temp/10-12 hrs. cold final ferment). I also used the convection function while baking in the dutch oven but turned the fan off during the second (uncovered) part of the bake, all using the temps from the recipe in the book.
Here's where I thought I had missed in terms of final loaf quality, from highest priority to lowest:
* I expected the bread to be more sour from the retarded ferment. I'd say the bread was sour enough to easily pass as a sourdough, but wanted to boost that component even more. Do I need to be looking at other things as well in order to increase its sourness, or did taking the dough out of the frig 1-3 hours earlier than the recipe calls for make the difference?
My thoughts now are to give it the full retarded ferment time. I was surprised that Robertson's uses only 1 Tbsp of the culture to build the ferment. Might using a larger amount of the culture help in making for a more sour loaf, and if so where would be a good place to start? I seem to recall reading something to this regard somewhere.
* I was surprised when cutting the loaf that the crust was thin enough to deform under the bread knife. Though the crust looked the part and shed all over my cutting board, it easily gives way when pressed with my fingers. What might cause such a thin crust? I'd like a crust that shatters somewhat like glass instead of buckling a bit before yielding to the bread knife.
* I would've wished for larger holes and more irregularity than what my loaf produced. Are my results par for the Tartine country loaf, or am I right in expecting more? ...and if so what areas should I re-evaluate first in my technique?
* I was hoping for more ear development, the kind that might cut your lip! I used a DE razor blade mounted on a wooden skewer held at a shallow angle, though I found it hard to know how shallow I was cutting since I made the cuts very fast and was rushing to close the oven door. How do these ears look w/respect to what is possible with the Tartine recipe?
Perhaps affecting most of this - I was a bit surprised at the results I got from doing the poke test. Though the entire idea behind the poke test is very intuitive to me and found no ambiguity doing each test, different parts of the dough seemed to have different results. Is this normal for different parts of the dough to respond differently, and what could have been its cause?
I found areas that bounced sprung back from the poke test quickly, others that sprung back slowly but not completely, and a couple of places (in around 2-3 places) where it sprung back right away - these results were all at the same time but in different parts of the dough. The latter I knew even before testing as I could see a couple of areas on the dough's surface that were thin enough to be translucent and filled with gas. But it still left me with having to decide when to start the bake, so I just waited until they all started to slow down in response to the poke test.
Would appreciate any and all helpful comments and suggestions so I can apply them to my next bake.
With many thanks in advance,
cgfan...
To respond to some of your comments, Chad Robertson Tartine recipes don't result in highly sour bread. And increasing the amount of Levain will not make the bread more sour. If you search on here for more sour bread, you will discover a number of techniques that will help you nudge your bread in that direction.
Secondly, the description of your crust sounds like the type of crust that I and many others aim for. You would a much thicker crust for it not to buckle while you are slicing.
The crumb from what I see in your picture is perfect. No complaints about that from me.
As to the ear, sometimes I get a nice ear, most of the time not. I am still working on improving my oven spring which leaves the poke test. It apparently doesn't work very well on cold dough so that might explain the inconsistenclies.
I am sure others will weigh in but you get a "Great job!" from me!
Thank you Danni3II3; wow, I certainly wasn't expecting a review like that! I must've gotten very lucky in my bake but am probably showing my inexperience in wanting something a bit different in the result.
Since I'm a bit of a sour nut I'd be overjoyed if I could influence this aspect in any bread I might bake. I'll start searching on this site for suggestions. ...and thank you for correcting my misunderstanding re. using an increased amount of Levain in the dough build.
Interesting regarding the texture of the crust. Yes, I actually prefer a harder, glass-like crust that doesn't buckle but shatters under the knife. Funny to think I may actually be after a quality which others are trying to avoid! Hmmm, is there any special baker's terminology for this kind of crust, or it's opposite, that I can search for?
Also interesting to hear about the crumb. I was picturing at this hydration level (80%) more of a Ciabatta-like crumb. Nice to know, I guess, that I'm getting the result that I should've expected. Before targeting an entirely different recipe, might a tweak up in hydration levels steer me towards a larger and more irregular crumb structure?
In any case I really appreciate your feedback. Overall it sounds like I got the results I should've expected in the first place!
Duplicate
like the one you describe. Maybe baking it longer to dry it out more might do it for you.
As to the crumb, higher hydration doesn't always mean more open crumb. It helps but it isn't the whole story. Personally I find the more white flour I include, the more open my crumb is. Whole grains weigh things down but you can still get a fairly open bread with a high grain content like some of the experts on here. I am still very much a newbie at this so I am still doing tons of learning and experimenting.
Thank you, Danni3II3. That seems to come up a lot in the reading I've been doing as well, but somehow thought that at just 10% it's barely a whole-wheat bread. I guess it doesn't take much, though I like the thought of using whole-wheat flour, especially since I'm milling it myself. Hmmmm, still might try toying with hydration by perhaps pushing it by another 5%...
1000 times better than my first SD attempt :) Your crust and crumb look grand. Must have been tasty :)
I think 80% hydration is plenty for and open crumb. I also agree with Danni, higher hydration doesn't always equal more open crumb. From my limited experience so far, I've gotten my crumb to open up, with more gentle handling of the dough and making sure that I give the dough a long enough time to proof.
In terms of getting more sour, from what I've read, using less (not more) starter and letting the dough ferment for longer can help with that.
Anyway, very nice bake, enjoy!
Ru
Thank you Ru007!
Thanks for the advice. I was still thinking of toying around with hydration for my next bake, but after hearing your and Danni's advice I'll keep it steady at 80%.
When looking back at my dough handling there were likely some improvement areas there. I specifically recall not being sure how to remove the dough scraper from underneath the dough when trying to form the taught balls. Each time I removed the scraper some of the tension was released no matter what I tried. Guess it's time to look up some YouTube videos!
Also recall fussing, then leaving alone, the dough when I inverted it on to the lid of my cast iron pot. I missed a bit when I popped the dough from the Banneton and on to the lid of the Dutch oven and briefly tried to re-center it, but it had immediately adhered to the hot cast iron and I couldn't budge it. (I used my Dutch oven upside down for better access to the dough ball for scoring.)
Last night I just read-up on what you also mention - that actually using less starter for a longer ferment results in a more sour dough. But could this be still applicable to the Tartine recipe that already uses just 1 Tbsp per 200 grams ea. of flour and water?
Just not sure how far one can possibly take this - or perhaps just extend the ferment time while still using the same amount of starter?
Just now starting to feel how interconnected the variables of sourdough baking can be!
post by Dab (he makes incredible bread) to see just how little starter you need. He says in the post that the loaf ended up "nicely sour".
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30884/24-hour-10-whole-grain-sfsd-sd-seeded-fig-bread-pistachios-1-g-starter-no-levain
I think extending the fermentation without reducing the starter might leave you with an over proofed loaf, not sure though.
As for getting surface tension right, we're in the same boat! I'm still learning how to get my shaping right.
Filomatic made a good point below, search for Dab's "no muss no fuss starter method". I'm sure once the starter has been in the fridge for 16weeks the bread will get more sour. I use that method to maintain my rye starter, but I've only gone 7-8weeks before feeding my starter.
Happy Baking! :)
Wow, no leaven nor retard, just build the dough, autolyse, French slap & fold, a long ferment on the counter, shape and bake. And if I'm reading it right Dab's using 7g starter between his two loaves, or 3.5g per.
Since the Tartine recipe calls out a volume measurement for the starter (of 1Tbsp) I didn't scale mine out, but just now scaled out 3.5g of starter and found that it is indeed small - around 2/3tsp by my measure so some 4.5x less starter than the Tartine recipe.
Thanks for the food for thought, Ru! Will now be reading Filomatic's post...
Thanks for the lead, Ru! So finding Dab's 1% starter technique most interesting, I decided to give it a try for a gathering that was scheduled a day after baking day. If the bake didn't turn out I'd still have time to replace it with something else. Turns out I made a huge scheduling mistake - the gathering was the day of my bake with a big drive ahead!
So I had to make last-minute and brutal changes to Dab's recipe. The first change wasn't that bad - I shortened the bulk ferment from 20 hours to 17. Then I had to completely do without a bench rest (though I don't think Dab's recipe explicitly calls for one - I'm still very new at this so not 100% sure I'm reading the recipe correctly nor using the correct terminology) and otherwise intended to do one if not being so pressed for time. (This try at Dab's recipe is my 3rd time ever baking bread.)
The most brutal change was the reduction of Dab's 4 hour final proof to a very speedy 40 minutes. My scheduling mistake forced me in to this, so to compensate I did the final proof with my Bannetons perched on top of the cup warming tray of my espresso machine.
So how did it turn out? The smaller of the two boules I made looked like it had a good rise, though the larger boule didn't look good at all, over and above some strange aesthetic things going on as I rushed my shaping.
So how was the crumb? Surprisingly both boules had a nearly identical-looking crumb despite the external differences in look. Not quite as large a crumb as with my prior bread (in this same post), but now that I know not to expect a large Ciabatta-like crumb with 10% WW (thanks to the great feedback in this very thread), the crumb was perfectly fine. Best of all I got the sourness I wanted, but also a slightly sturdier/thicker crust. The latter, I suspect, was due to keeping the convection fan on during the 2nd, uncovered part of the bake.
This experience makes me want to retry Dab's recipe, this time giving it all of the time called for in the original recipe. Once again thanks for the lead!
Great job! Looks like you got good oven spring. The crust looks good. Do you prefer a thicker crust? I like my crusts on the thinner side, i've found that when i used less steam i get a thinner more crackly crust.
Too bad you had to rush the timing though, i've had to rush a couple of bakes and it always turns out better when i give the dough enough time to just do its thing.
I'm so glad you got the sourness you wanted though, i think it'll be even sourer (is that a word? LOL! ) next time you try it with the full proofing time.
Anyway, well done again! Can't wait to see how take two turns out.
Again all thanks to you for the lead...
But again I'm showing my wet-behind-the-earness... Albeit I see oven spring in the smaller boule, do you see evidence of that in the larger boule? That's the one that initially disappointed me so much, not to mention the complete lack of ears on either boule. (I did score but the lame got caught up in the dough and I didn't want to retrace my steps, though I can't imagine that's why I didn't get any ears...) Am I reading the larger boule wrong, or perhaps you were being kind and were seeing it only in the smaller boule...
I suppose I prefer a thicker crust. Not sure what causes it so assuming it's the thickness, but I like a crust that shatters like glass, though on second thought I'm only talking about where the ears are. When I buy a rustic bread I focus so much on the ear development and it's qualities that I'm just realizing I don't want that for the entire loaf.
...and this entirely changes how I should have asked the question at the top of my post - how do you get *an ear* that doesn't give under the knife but shatters like glass, one that hangs over the loaf like an open garage door? (a bit of hyperbole here, but you get the point...)
BTW in discussing this with a friend I had an idea what's causing the strange "brain-like" crenelations on my larger boule. (I first blamed a rushed shaping, but now thinking otherwise...) Here's what I wrote to a friend:
"Oh, just thought of why I likely got the odd pattern on the larger boule. I had already done 15 minutes of French hand kneading before the bulk fermentation when I realized I left out the salt. So I put the dough in my stand mixer to add the salt, but by then the dough was really over-worked and next to impossible to process. I'll bet that's what's causing the funny-looking top on the larger boule. It's showing where the over-worked dough was folded over itself in the mixer, too late to truly knit together."
Any thoughts on this?
BTW finally got a chance to take a pic of the crumb, Was in such a rush getting the bake done coupled with a long drive I'm only now taking this pic.
it sprang up to me. I looks like the cut opened up some, even if the ears didn't show up. That's more about how you scored the loaf.
To get the ears, try holding the blade at a shallower angle. That's pretty much the best advice i can give you because my scoring is not the best.
Heres another link for you, its a post from David (he also makes incredible loaves) about scoring :
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31887/scoring-bread-updated-tutorial
I'm not sure about the funny looking top. Hmmm... interesting theory about the mixer though. I don't have a mixer so i don't really know what the difference between a hand mixed dough and one that has been in a mixer is.
But you might be right, i remember one time, i tried adding oats to one of my loaves and it didn't really mix it well. So on the inside of the loaf there was almost a fold in loaf where the crumb kind of didn't stick together... not sure if that makes sense!
As for your crumb, it looks very good! Honestly, it looks really great. Some bakers on this site aim for crumbs that look like that, open but not so open that the butter and jam falls through!
From what you've said, I take it you would like it to be more open, which is fine too, i think next time with the full proofing time, you'll get exactly what you want.
Happy Baking :)
Thanks for the read on the crust. Now that you say that I can see where what I thought was a fold in the dough actually traces out the shape I was aiming for in the scoring! Expecting ears to show up I fooled myself in to thinking it was something else.
I'm used to eating Ciabattas so I tend to gravitate towards wanting a very open crumb. But now I'm realizing that it's a completely different type of loaf, something I wouldn't have been able to appreciate just a week ago. I think I'm already beginning to love a tighter, but still open, crumb and will likely not miss having to wipe up the olive oil that finds its way through the more open breads I've been accustomed to, especially if that means I can pick up the sour notes and also be able to use some home-milled flour.
BTW I did try holding the lame at a shallow angle, though I don't have the best tool for that. I just stuck a DE razor to a skewer, and the lack of a flat handle causes it to rotate easily. I'll look in to modifying it with a flat handle, though I do have a perfectly fine production lame (though its blades are fixed and not replaceable).
Thanks for the link. I learned so much from your last lead that I'm really looking forward to reading this new one!
That's a great looking loaf! For sourness, see dabrownman's many patient explanations. I have yet to master it. My bread was exactly as sour as I liked it the first couple bakes, but then fridge maintenance changed the culture, and I haven't gotten it back. Dabrownman likes it sour, too, and has a method for building starter for long term fridge storage, involving starter builds at high temperature, that you store in the fridge and take from week after week, as it continues to sour in the fridge. Many here find it highly successful.
Thanks for the lead, Filo. Ru above also mentions the technique, so it must be good. Glad to know there are other sour hounds out there!
being so kind with their comments!
I love sour bread. In the old days SFSD bread was much more sour than today and it looked different with a different crust.
The keys to sour bread are
Using whole grains for starter and levain builds. The bran in the Whole Grain acts as a buffer that allows the LAB to continue to reproduce and produce at lower pH levels than they normally could. More LAB means more sour
High and low temperatures favor LAB over yeast allowing them to reproduce at greater rates than yeast which are restricted at those temperatures. SO more LAB again mean more sour and restricting yeast allows more time for the LAB to work during fermentation and proofing which allows the more LAB to produce even more acid. 36 to 38 F for a really really long time or 90-92 F for a short time favor LAB.
Higher hydration favors LAB too. SO a very long retarded whole grain rye sour starter, combined with a retarded bran levain that is built at 90 F and then retarded too followed by gluten development and bulk ferment at 90 F and then proofed at 36 F makes for a sour bread. Using Forkish or Tartine methods leads to the least sour bread.
Here is the NMNF post
No Muss No Fuss Starterif you want a thicker crust that is more shattering use your choice of Mega Steam for a longer time and at higher temperatures.
Slashing for ears on boules isn't traditional like it is for batards or baguettes..... the normal slash for them is vertical..... looking for bloom and no ears. But if you want them them follow David's tutorial.
Happy Baking
New to bread & TFL but already heard much about you, so thank you Dab for sharing your thoughts!
Ever since Ru referenced your 1% starter 20 H ferment recipe, I've been studying it and have started to piece together the hows and whys of the recipe. But thanks to your explanation here I now corrected my assumptions on why a low temp retard will also develop sour. (I had incorrectly assumed that the low temp retard will necessarily use a riper starter, but now realize that the yeast works in a very narrow band and that both high and low favors the LAB over the yeast, all other things being equal.)
In reading your two posts on your 1%20h recipe and the resulting discussions, I came across Doc.Dough's mention of 36 hours. Do I understand correctly that DD's suggestion of a 36 hour bulk ferment would (at least theoretically) get one closer to a doubling with a 3x population of LAB over yeast due to something he's calling lag phase? (Though being new at this I don't know what's meant by 'lag phase'...) And am I interpreting it correctly when I assume that you suggest in the comments that you were basing the 1%20h recipe on a 90F bulk ferment? So if I combine both of these thoughts would I be correct to assume that I might be able to take your recipe to a 36h BF at 90F?
Sorry for asking so much. I'm actually trying to hold back and not overuse this incredible resource, but I'm just a newbie with only 3 breads under my white belt in the sourdough Dojo so am full of questions!
If my understanding is correct then for my next bake I'm tempted to use your 1%20h recipe and turn my oven in to a proofing box. I was thinking of using my Sous Vide controller connected to a heat lamp placed inside my oven (turned off, of course) to do the BF at a precise 90F, but extending the BF to 36h instead of 20h. This will at least allow me to control the temp precisely and use what amounts to an ad hoc proofing box.
What do you think? I'm really going on a stretch trying to divine all of the (new for me) SD talk and terminology, but needed to ask given such a wonderful resource.
With many thanks in advance, cgfan...
times is to forget them because they mean nothing. You need to watch the dough instead. The 1% 20 hour post was in the winter time here. If I tried to do it now I would be lucky to get 12 hours out of it, since the kitchen is 86 F instead of 68 F. That is how much temperature affects the speed of fermenting and proof. Doc was thinking that 36 hours the dough would turn to goo and no one wants that.
The bulk was to let it got till it double in volume and that is what you want to do and forget the time. The idea was to get as much sour out of the bread by using as little starter as possible and let it work for as long as made baking sense.
Doc is quite the doc for dough. i have recently been working with him on the idea that bran is the real buffering agent that allows whole grain to develop more LAB and sour because bran lets the LAB keep reproducing and producing more acid at lower pH's than normal Low and behold it really does and quite significantly.
Lag phase can mean several things in dough. A small amount of starter compared to dough flour like the 1% makes for a very large lag phase for the LAB and yeast to actually show any kind of effect on the dough, its hours but a 30% starter amount would shorten this lag down dramatically before you could see a difference.
This lag phase is different for LAB and yeast too. LAB are quicker to start reproducing and making acid than yeast begin their work as you can tell when making a new starter where LAB are much quicker to rise in numbers and stabilize by a couple of days aver when yeast reach their peaks in the culture. are and there are at least 10 times more of them than yeast. This lag can be taken advantage of by retarding levain and then using it in a dough when the gluten development, ferment and proof are done at high temperature when LAB are going wild but yeast not only lag LAB activity when waking up but also are restricted by the high temperature allowing more time for the LAB to make acid before the dough is ready for the oven and fully proofed.
Everything is relative except time which doesn't mean much. What take 20 hours in my winter kitchen can't be matched by anyone else unless they are here in Gilbert AZ using the same flour, water temperature, starter and levain that I am and why times are just rough, very rough rules of thumb.
Happy baking
Thanks Dab for the clarification - it was clear even when I first read your post that in the end the times you reported was dependent on what you saw in the rise of the dough. You've given me a lot of new info to chew on with your latest post - I'll likely be feasting on it for a quite while as I get up to speed on the SD mindset and terminology. My newbie brain is spinning a bit on the discussion of the retarded leaven followed by a high temp build and proof, but I think I get it. Anyway it's all good, and now I even know the context of Doc.Dough's 36 h reference! Thank you for the clarification.
In the meantime I have one more question. While keeping in mind that watching the dough's rise is paramount, I'd still like to consider using the 1% inoculation under a more controlled environment like an ad hoc proofing box. (Keeping a precise temp for me is easy to do with the kitchen toys I have around the house.) Would 90 F be a good, perhaps even ideal though not unique, temp for the bulk ferment and final proof in order to advantage the LAB over the yeast? That is the sense I get from reading the discussion on your recipe.
Again with many thanks in advance, cgfan...
When I did i, it was at 68 F not 90 F so I can't say for sure what the outcome will be other than the normal way yeast and LAB reproducing at near identical rates at 68 F are way iff base at 90 F where LAB are reproducing at rates 3 times faster than yeast and yeast is being restricted to the same rate it would reproduce at 66 F. SO it will tae longer for the dough to double than it did for me and at 68 F but the LAB will really be cranking out the acid that mine didn't. lOther moare important thngs are going on at 90 F as well.
The amylase enzymes that bread starch into sugar and the protease enzymes that break the gluten protein bonds that give the dough structure and allow it to rise properly are also working on overtime since they double in activity every 18 F in increased temperature So at 90 F protease is really going to work on the gluten structure and since the yeast is working at 66 F hardly rising the dough,you could really end u with goo before you know it. Normally I don't ever worry about protease degrading gluten but what you are creating is a an extreme abnormal situation so you need to know that abnormal result will likely occur.
I think you would be much better off doing the ferment at room temperature and the final proof at 90 F but you can try experimenting all you want like I have over the years. Here is Ganzel's temperature data on 2 strains if L San Fran, which is probably not in your SD culture and C Milleri yeast - also probably nit in your culture but it is a good rule of thumb.
Here ia a link ti the many dough enzymes in flour too
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/enzymes-the-little-molecules-that-bake-bread/
Happy Baking .
Thanks again, Dab. As a newbie I run the danger of extrapolating off of a little bit of knowledge and a little bit of gleaned info - perhaps it's my own 1% inoculation of info to feed my own SD learning curve of Doh (vs. dough)! The 90F (though on a 2nd read looks like it was 94F) was from your NMNF post, which I'm likely taking out of context.
For now I'm not seeking to do anything radical or too unorthodox so I'll abandon the thought of the high temp BF, but stick with your advice on a higher temp final proof. It took me a while to digest your NMNF link, but now I think I know how to best incorporate it in to my way of working. So here's what I'm thinking for my next, Dab-inspired, bake. Stick to your 1%20h recipe but using your NMNF starter, BF at room temp and final proof at 90F in an ad hoc proofing box.
As to your NMNF starter, what do you think of having two NMNF starters in the frig, started, say, 8 weeks apart, and always taking from the one that was last fed? That way one would always have a NMNF starter that's at least 8 weeks old. As soon as the oldest one is fed the other one would just be turning 8 weeks old.
I've always built my starters using 50/50 WW & white flour, but from reading your posts it sounds like if I like the sour I should use 100% WW to feed. Am I understanding that correctly too?
As to my existing starter it's an interesting culture with an interesting pedigree. I received it well over 10 years ago from some friends of mine who befriended a generations-old village baker form the Black Forest of Bavaria. While it has never left the family, the baker got excited at the prospects of his culture travelling to the US and so gave my friends some of their culture, though I suspect it may also have to do with my friends being renowned (lifetime Grammy!) touring musicians.
I've been using it all these years for only pizzas, so the bread part is new to me. I used to think that starters never really keep their old properties once relocated due to local flora and flours, but after trying to also build a local wild starter at home I now see that they behave completely differently. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between, but in the end my "Bavarian village" starter seems to be night-and-day a stronger culture! Perhaps you also have some thoughts on this?
As usual, with many thanks in advance, cgfan...