European flours and hydration
One of the things we European bakers learn is that our flours won't take the same amount of water that American flours seem to be able to cope with. This was pointed out by some helpful contributors when I first joined TFL.
I'd be great to hear comments from other European bakers (and those anywhere else in the world!)
I'm only a moderately experienced amateur baker, but - thanks to TFL - getting better. However, I'm struggling to handle hydrations above 62% with Allinson's strong bread flour, which I have always thought to be fairly thirsty. Other high street brands in the UK would probably require even lower hydrations.
Today I have mixed batches of both San Joaquin Sourdough (c.75% hydration, including starter) and Champlain Sourdough (c.70% hydration, including starter), pictured.
I dropped the overall hydration down to 62% in both. Even then, shaping the loaves isn't easy, but knitted polyester gloves and a dough scraper do help. The doughs stick to a lightly dusted surface and I'm having difficulty shaping loaves without messing up. My 62% hydration "Champlain" loaf baked today is shown to give an idea of what I'm producing (I suppose it's really a "Sutton Sourdough", bit it doesn't cunjour up the right idea.)
I'm not on a mission to make high hydration doughs for the sake of it - there is an interesting thread about hydration and dough-handling just started, and I don't want to risk hijacking that.
I'm working at 8% to 13% below the hydrations that experienced US bakers can manage. So, I wonder:
- How much of it is down to my inexperienced technique and how much is down to European flour?
- What flours and hydrations are other TFL contributors in Europe using?
Update: Thanks to everyone who has already posted comments in this thread. You guys are amazing for sharing your knowledge. I hope that I've responded to everyone in turn. If I've missed a comment, or haven't replied, please accept my apologies/thanks in advance.
From my experience, French flours are much less "thirsty" than American flours, most likely owing to their lower protein content (by and large). Now, I have not worked with a wide gamut of French commercial flours, as I have only worked with flours from small artisanal productions (not dropping that term to be snobbish, just don't know how else to describe them) : one of the flours is with a paysan boulanger with whom I am working in the Southwest of France . . . it is a mix of ancient varieties of wheat adapted to his land, freshly ground on a Astreia-brand stone-mill, sifted to a T80 texture, and used within days of milling. We typically hydrate the breads at about 67% (though the measurements are not precise to the gram, I must say), and the shaping is only tricky if the dough is too warm and the acids turn it into goop a little bit. That could be one of your problems : even at 60%, an over-fermented dough is going to give you shaping troubles, so you have to really pay attention to its development during the bulk fermentation period. Also go easy on the levain in the recipe, more will cause faster fermentation, and the optimal shaping window is much shorter as a result. (I do not have scientific data to corroborate this point, but this is a trend that I have observed in working). It should also be noted that, officially speaking, pretty much all of the wheats that this guy grows would be considered by the industry to be unsuitable for bread baking, so low is their gluten content.
At home, I use flour from a small little water mill in Provence, the Moulin St. Joseph in Grans. I either use their regular T80 ("Bise") or their "Blé Meunier d'Apt," an ancient varietal known as a "touselle" which has interesting baking qualities. I find that at about 67-70% hydration, the dough feels about equivalent to 78-85% hydration with American flours, yet I can still achieve a pretty darn good oven spring with these flours, despite their low protein contents.
Maybe trying autolysing your flours for a long time before mixing in the levain to allow for good gluten development. Alternately, you could adopt a more rigorous kneading technique combined with stretches and folds to see what that might yield.
Thanks for your really interesting comments, LepainSamidien. You have given me some useful insights to work on.
I usually autolyse flours for an hour before baking, and yesterday was using Trevor Wilson's technique of an overnight 'autolyse' (he adds salt). Generally I'm doing loads of stretches and folds (I have insufficient space for French folds in my tiny kitchen). I do wonder whether my fermentation times are off, though, so will certainly be paying attention to that.
I'll be in Paris this weekend for my birthday, and I was thinking of looking at buying some French flour as a novelty (and spending an afternoon in the cook shops around the Rue Montmartre).
Really appreciate all your thoughts. Happy baking! Colin
With Danish flours I sometimes bake with 80-90% hydration. When baking free standing loaves or buns with a high hydration I usually retard the dough for 12-24 hours in a bowl. Then I let the dough (still in the bowl) reach room temperature on the kitchen table before tipping it out on the table. Instead of shaping using the usual techniques I cut the dough into loaf-sized or bun-sized pieces and gently tighten up the pieces using a scraper. After that they go directly in the oven. It is very hard to control the shape so I don't try too hard.
If I want to shape my loaves properly I work with 70-75% hydration and a final fermentation after shaping. For me the San Joaquin Sourdough works as it is with Danish flour.
As for flours I use a basic white wheat flour (~10g protein per 100g) and a wholemeal component, which is usually one or more of these:
In my experience Öland wheat is the one that works best with high hydration. I normally use Goldblume for the the San Joaquin Sourdough.
Hi Bak, thanks for your post. Cutting and shaping dough straight from a retarded bulk fermentation sounds like an interesting idea for high hydration dough. Sounds like you have plenty of flours to chose from in Denmark. I'll be looking out for some photos of your high hydration loaves. Happy baking! Colin.
It's my do-it-all flour unless I'm baking a totally white french-style bread. Then I use the Duchy Organics flour. When it comes to wholegrain flours, I use the Tesco's own brand stoneground wholemeal and the Bacheldre Mills rye. I also use the (imported) Polish brand Melvit for my light rye and oat flours.
My white breads (mostly yeasted) are at 65%, while my 30% wholegrain sourdoughs (using the Allinson's) are at around 67%. My most recent bread - a 40% wholegrain, 30% rye with beer and raisins worked out at just shy of 70%, but that's about as high as I dare go for a freeform loaf. Any higher than that and in a tin it goes.
Admittedly I don't go for the big holes. I prefer a tighter crumb (makes for less messy sarnies), so wondering whether it's down to method rather than flour...
Hi Reynard,
Thanks for your post and it's interesting that you are achieving up to 67% hydration with Allinson strong flour, though the component of wholemeal flour presumably soaks up some of that extra water? It makes me feel that I am in the right ball-park.
I am sure that there must be something down to technique too, as I am a relatively inexperienced bread baker compared to many of you guys on TFL.
I haven't come across Melvit flour, but we have Polish food shops in Sutton, so I might look out for it. I use Duchy Organics for pastry, so will try their bread flour for baguettes.
Very many thanks for your post. Happy baking! Colin.
I've only been baking bread seriously for less than a year all told...
Anyways, this is my crusty bloomer-style bread. This particular loaf worked out at 64% because I bloopered when weighing out the ingredients and then had to do some maths on the fly...
It's made with a poolish (100g of flour, 100g water pinch of yeast) made in the morning, bread dough made in the evening with all the poolish, another pinch of yeast, 450g flour and 320g water. It's left for an overnight bulk ferment in a cool place, then knocked back, shaped and proved in the morning prior to baking.
My doughs mostly seem to have a fairly similar consistency - it's probably where I feel happiest at in terms of handling, maybe it's instinctive or something...
It's actually quite surprising how thirsty wholegrain flours can be - I'm partial to a fairly substantial slice ;-) What I do do when using some of the recipes on here - like the basic 3:2:1 sourdough, is instead of holding back on the water, I add around 4% rolled oats to the mix, which, if you count it as part of the flour component, takes the hydration down to a more manageable 67%. Here's a couple of shots of one of my 30% wholegrain sourdoughs - the wholegrain component was 2 parts rye to one part wholemeal.
The method is pretty similar to the bloomer; build levain in the morning, make dough in the evening, leave overnight in cool place, then knock back, shape, prove and bake in the morning.
BTW, if you do check out the Polish flours, make sure they're labeled something along the lines of "do wypieku domowego chleba" i.e. for home-baked bread. If the flour is labeled "tortowa" it's plain / cake flour. The light rye is Maka Zytnia typ 720 (it'll be on the side of the packet). Melvit also does a nice oat flour if you're that way inclined.
HTH :-)
P.S. My breads are the same shape because I bake them in a chicken brick. I can't steam my oven, so a girl's gotta improvise ;-)
Hi Raynard, Thanks very much for posting your loaves, which look great. I'm cuirious whether you pre-heat your chicken brick or start the bread in there from cold? I remember reading about adding oats in a previous post of yours. I must try it one day (maybe when I am exhasperated by a dough that's too sticky!) Helpful to know what to look for on a packet of bread flour from Poland too. Best wishes, and happy baking! Colin
That came with the brick I'm currently using, and I pre-heat it rather than using from cold. According to the blurb on the leaflet, that's why my last one developed some nasty cracks.
I think it was Mini Oven who originally mentioned about the oats as a good soaker-upper of excess water in sticky doughs. They do work well that way, but I also happen to rather like the taste and texture that oats give the bread :-)
I have no experience with them, though I understand the difference in water absorption can be quite dramatic. So I can't contribute much to that discussion.
But I'll add that our reliance on using hydration as the deciding factor in determining our dough's consistency can be very misleading. As you well know, the consistency of my 70% hydrated dough will be quite different from your 70% dough.
That's why I generally prefer to use the terms "stiff" or "wet" or "soft" or some other descriptor instead. Hydration in and of itself is too context-dependent to be reliable. Listed hydrations should only ever be considered a reference point, nothing set in stone. You were right to drop the hydration to something more manageable.
As for your shaping difficulties, it sounds to me like you just need more time to develop your shaping skills. It took me months to become half-way proficient at shaping loaves, and I was shaping hundreds a day. Of course, I'm also the least naturally talented baker I've ever run across -- most don't require as much practice as I did. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't just fire me because I was progressing so slow.
So just give yourself time and you'll get it. Keep your hydration to whatever percentage produces dough that you're comfortable working with -- even if it's lower than 62%. One thing I do suggest, however, is to work with your bare hands. Baking is a feel-based craft, and developing your touch is of vital importance to developing your skill. You can't do that with gloves on.
And I've gotta say, your loaf actually looks quite nice. Excellent crumb. I made many far worse loaves when I first started baking so I think you're doing well. I'm glad you decided to give my Champlain Sourdough a try (Sutton Sourdough's got a nice ring to it too though). I hope you liked it.
Cheers!
Trevor
Hey Trevor,
Thanks for you post and your kind words about my humble attempts to imitate your amazing Champlain sourdough.
Agreed that hydration expressed as a baker's percentage can be misleading as a comparison between bakers, but it is proving useful to understand my own baking. I'd describe my 63% hydration dough with Allinson flour as "sticky".
Compared to your excellent video, my premixed dough adhered to the bowl, and your 'fold-and-roll-around-the-bowl' technique wasn't one I could achieve - I had to use more of a stretch-and-fold technique - I'd need to drop to around 57% hydration with my UK flour to be able to do that - one of the reasons why I started this thread.
I'm sure you are right about needing to develop my shaping skills. I agree that baking is a tactile craft. The use of gloves is mostly because my doughs are often just too sticky otherwise. I will definitely try this loaf again, and come back with a photo of something more worthy of the original.
[Update to original post: There is a discussion about the use of gloves in mixing and shaping dough part way down an earlier post.]
By the way, Sutton is a leafy suburb of outer London, and really doesn't have quite the same mystique as an island in the middle of Lake Champlain! Although I love the town where I live, "Sutton Sourdough" definitely doesn't work as the name for a loaf. The taste from your formulas was, however, fantastic. I liked your overnight 'autolyse', which I hadn't used before.
Please keep the brilliant videos coming, and thanks so much for sharing your really helpful thoughts.
Happy baking! Colin.
Thanks for linking to your previous post. The entire thread was a very good read. I think it's a little too late for me to add my two cents, but I certainly can't argue against gloves to help prevent baker's dermatitis (or sensitivities in general). I've used both latex and vinyl gloves in the past -- it's pretty standard procedure if you cut yourself (which happens often in a bakery) to use a glove to cover your hand and prevent the band-aid (or duct tape) from slipping off your finger into the dough. But I never did like it. The threat of "the glove" was a good incentive to prevent cuts.
Oh, and your loaves from that thread were beautiful!
Cheers!
Trevor
Many thanks, Trevor, and for your kind comments. I was extremely grateful for the people who posted interesting stuff about gloves in that previous thread. Although I haven't experienced bakers' dermatitis, I have found the acids in sourdough quite drying on the hands at times. Non-scented handcream at the end of baking session is something to think about, especially after a lot of hands-on stretches and folds. Best wishes and happy baking! Colin.
But surprisingly effective hand cream is Lidl's Cien SOS hand cream (white tube with red graphics and cap). It's only 75p a tube but works better than many other more expensive ones I've tried - and I've tried loads as I suffer badly with dry, chapped hands when it's cold.
Except some Italian flour I use for pizza dough and to mix with American flour for some Italian-style breads. But this is a very interesting topic to me, so I'm butting in.
First off, Colin, the bread in your photo is gorgeous. Crust and crumb, in my opinion, are both classic sourdough/pain de campagne. Yum!
I agree with Trevor that one baker's 70% hydration dough may be very different from another baker's. Differences in flour certainly matter, but so do mixing (gluten development), type and proportion of pre-ferments, fermentation and loaf shaping. Trevor's preference for describing dough consistency is one I share, although terms like "soft," "medium," "gloppy" are all rather imprecise, although I have seen them all used in books by highly-esteemed baking teachers.
For we home bakers, I think that what matters is knowing the dough consistency we want, knowing enough about bread science to be able to manipulate ingredients and techniques to achieve it consistently. That also requires we have mastered dough handling techniques sufficiently to produce consistent results.
When I took the sourdough workshop at the San Francisco Baking Institute, I was flabbergasted to have my instructor (Frank Sally) give a tug at a batch of dough in the mixer and pronounce, "Give it 100g more water." or, "It needs 30 seconds more at second speed." Clearly, he had a target dough consistency in mind, and he knew how to hit the bullseye. That kind of (literal) savoire-faire became my personal goal, and I'm still working toward it with every bake.
You are making some fine-looking bread. If you can fully understand what you did that made it so good, you are a master.
David
Hi David,
Thank you so much for your incredibly kind comments on my attempt at Champlain sourdough.
My efforts to make a couple of loaves of your San Joaquin Sourdough are in progress as I write, so here's a photo of the work in progress. I may post a photo of the finished loaf later, subject to how it turns out. Showing one's feeble efforts to the baker who has made a loaf their own is a bit daunting!
Thanks to all the advice that I have picked-up from far more experienced contributors on TFL, I'm working through my technique step-by-step. At the moment I'm thinking a lot about hydration and getting the dough right. Proportions of ingredients and mixing clearly go hand in hand, as you say.
Soft, medium and gloppy as descriptions of dough are helpful, but don't mean too much for bakers beginning their quest for the perfect loaf - one needs enough experience to know what you are comparing it to.
I love your description of the San Francisco Baking Institute. Sounds like you had an inspiring time.
Thanks for your kind words, and happy baking! Colin.
Here's the finished SJSD bâtard shown in the larger banneton (above).
Sadly no crumb-shot, as this loaf is destined to be a gift for my neighbour. It's was made with 550g of the final mix.
I have to say that the rice flour I'm using to line bannetons at the moment is rather granular, and probably doesn't contribute to the overall look of the loaf. I have rather a lot of the stuff to get through before I can buy another batch.
The recipient of one of today's SJSD is coming over for a bite to eat, so I cut into the smaller batard to have with some soup. This loaf had been retarded for about a hour after shaping. It wasn't quite as good a looking loaf as the previous one, but happy with the open crumb.
Beautiful crumb, and beautiful picture overall. I'm sure it must have tasted as good as it looks!
Cheers!
Trevor
Hi again Trevor. Thank you so much for your encouraging evaluation. The loaf was not quite a pretty on the outside as the one baked earlier, so the first slices were a pleasant surprise, and something I aim to replicate consistently. I also realised that I've been slightly under-baking sourdoughs in the past - too often I've ended-up with a slightly gummy crumb, even when I've left the loaf a good two hours between slicing. Really appreciate your kind comment. Best wishes and happy baking! Colin.
Have a pleasant holiday!
David
Gosh! Thank you very much, David. That's really kind of you. I definitely feel like I'm making progress. Now I have to concentrate on consistent results, improving my understanding of when a loaf is at the right stage of proof and turning out loves which as as good as you, Trevor J Wilson and Alfonso can produce. I'll be very happy when I get to that stage.
I'll be paying a visit to Mora while I'm in Paris. It could be an expensive visit, especially if I go anywhere near their cane bannetons, which have eyewatering price-tags, even ofter converting euors to sterling!
Many thanks and happy baking! Colin
One of my favourites is a 70% hydration white (90% white/10% wholemeal). I prove in a banneton and bake uncovered, without steam on a heavy steel baking tray. It rises splendidly and the crumb has large holes. The dough is soft and stretchy but not sticky. I use an overnight 20% preferment with 2 hrs bulk ferment and about 1.75 hr prove. 1% salt in line with my reduced salt thing and 3% olive oil - and that's it. Great results every time
Hi Aroma, thanks ever so much (and greetings from another baker in the UK). It would be fantastic to see a photo of your loaf, and interesting to know that one can push Allinson Very Stong flour to 70% if one is so minded. I'm definitely at the sticky stage with their regular strong flour! Happy baking! Colin.
Hopefully here it is:-
Cheers
Nice looking loaves, Aroma, with plenty of rise. Interest to know why you don't use any steam? (Not that one is obliged to - just curious). Thanks ever so much for posting a photograph. Happy baking! Colin.
Good to 'see' you again!
I live in Asia and have been using German High Protein Bread flour (Type 550) on a regular basis and find that the flour is just right for me. I mostly bake breads with 65-68% hydration for its consistency as my clients are not very fond of moist bread, that is when I tweaked my recipe to 72-75% hydration. So for as long as I am sticking to 65%, all is good. Easy dough handling and scoring is almost a breeze...Anything above 78% would look like soup to me.
Below are some of my breads and I will let you decide on whether German flour would be your next-go-to choice:
p/s: I happened to use Waitrose Strong Bread Flour some time last year and found it to be ok. Hope I answered some of your questions : )
Regards,
Sandy
Hi Sandy, Lovely to see you too, and your bread is - as ever - inspiring. It sounds and looks like your regular hydration with the German flour you are using is producing superb results and I bet your customers are delighted. I'm not sure whether I'd be able to source your flour in the UK, but I wouldn't mind developing your level of expertise :-) Happy baking! Colin.
I've also tried Dutch Ovens, cloches, domes, baking trays with water, spraying water - you name it. But I have not seen any improvement so I just bake on a heavy steel baking tray - I can just about squeeze 4 loaves in together and so it is a very good use of energy that way.
In essence, I use just 10g of my mature Rye starter which I make up with 240g flour and 240g water to form the 20% preferment. This, I leave overnight on the worktop (17deg C or so) and in the morning I add the remaining 960g flour and 600g water (total 1200g flour/840g water). I put this into my Brod & Taylor proofer (set to 28 deg C) - I autolyse this for around 1 hr, then sprinkle on 12g salt (1%) and 18g olive oil (3%). I then bulk ferment (inc S&F) for 2 hr after which I shape into the bannetons. The loaves are around 85% proved within 1hr 45m or so and in the oven they go.
I have found that the proving is critical - I often am tempted to leave it proving for longer but that is a mistake. I now make all my 'normal' sourdough breads this way - wholemeal at 80% in tins though.
Just found this photo - this was a recent experiment and was 90%Allinson's White/10% Wholemeal Rye and at 75% hydration (the extra 5% hydration to accommodate the rye).
The tin loaf is 700g (dough weight) and 5.5 inches high and the banneton loaf is 500g and 3 inches to give you some idea of scale
Hi Aroma,
Thanks so much for posting some more photos of your lovely bakes.
Interesting to know that you haven't found that steam makes much difference. I wonder whether ovens in the UK are generally smaller than many that I see in the US, and therefore have a lower volume to fill with steam?
I've tried a La Cloche in the past, and had different baking stones. Now I prefer a cast iron skillet on the floor of my oven (which has a heading element below) to create steam and a (very heavy) sheet of steel on the lowest oven shelf. It is definitely producing the best results I have a achieved so far.
The tin loaf looks particularly fine, and of course for many people in Britian a tinned loaf probably feels like our 'standard' loaf of bread than free-form loaves. Were these both sourdoughs, rather than yeasted breads?
Best wishes and happy baking! Colin
Good effort though! It looks just fine to me.
I did the whole Tartine thing which has an overall hydration of 77% when you take the starter into account. It wasn't the easiest thing to do, however I did get a good approximation.
I wrote it all up here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44490/tartineish-77-hydration-uk
The summary - it's possible, but handling the dough is very very tricky. A big/wide bench scraper would help a lot more.
This biggest issue I have with this style of bread (high hydration or not), is that is just doesn't sell well. It's really not what the Great British public expect in a loaf. There are small pockets of hippys and hipsters that do like it though, but where I live (deepest ruralistan), the latter are few and far between...
My daily loaves are round about the 63% hydration level (with that same Shipton Mill No. 4 flour, 12% protein)
-Gordon
Both of those posted by you have outstanding crusts and crumbs. Great work. Just don't be wearing any whites when the marmalade slips through and onto your shirt ;-) .
alan