Sourdough serendipity - creating my starter
I created the starter November 23 or 24, at 100% hydration with tap water and whole wheat flour. I was patient the first week - quickly saw bubbling activity and could tell the pH was lowering because it took on a lovely clean sour smell.
Kept feeding it once or twice a day, diligent to discard, and continued seeing big fat bubbles form freakishly quickly after feeding. I noticed I could stir it and it'd bubble up like the oxygenation kicked off more feeding, so I thought it a sign of aerobic respiration.
But... no rise.
During the first week or so I had to switch from exclusively whole grain to bleached AP (it was all I had!). I also thought the extra gluten would help reveal any "hidden" rising power.
Nope!
I had thought maybe the starter was being deceptive due to its level of hydration, "not catching the bubbles," as I read on a number of TFL threads. So I went ahead and made a test loaf - a disgusting flat brick. No rise whatsoever (although I had a lot of success developing the dough strength using S&F so it wasn't a complete loss!).
Because of a work trip, I had to refrigerate them about two weeks ago, so I fed them with a 1-2-4 starter-water-flour ratio to follow dmsnyder's formula. We live in the same general region, Central California, so I was hopeful that it would magically take off. I also thought the decreased hydration would positively influence its ability to rise.
After a day or two in the fridge both the jars had a small amount of hooch, the first I had seen - signs of yeast! - so I fed and discarded with the same ratio. About 12 days old at this point.
Went into the fridge glutenous and strong, came out a week later nice and creamy. There was an interesting change in its texture and color, it was really sexy to put it in a weird way, but it still smelled primarily sour.
Repeated the 1-2-4 feeding and returned it to the fridge another week to see the same beautiful creaminess emerge upon its removal.
I fed it, making two separate samples, again with such hope in my heart that they would rise. I cranked up the heater and got my house 67 degrees or a little higher.
Nope - no rise whatsoever. I was so disappointed.
At this point I had to regroup. I had commandeered about 75% of the house's glass jars, and needed to downsize my operation, so I decided to make two tiny starters with just about a tablespoon of culture in each. Put them in plastic containers while cooking that Saturday - and my diligent brother stacked them and moved them into a corner.
I completely forgot they existed for about a week.
When I opened them up yesterday, I could immediately tell there was a change. Lots of tiny bubbles instead of the big fat ones, and a new fruity alcoholy smell instead of the sour acidity that characterized it before. It smelled awesome, not even sour at all, so I was hoping my yeast were finally coming to life!
I had two containers, and they smelled the same, so I fed them both to double my chances for success. I took 1 tbs water, 3 tbs flour and 3 tbs starter, and mixed until comhined.
I could see small bubbles through the sides of the containers after about an hour. I wasn't certain, but it looked like they were starting to peek up over the rubber band.
I woke up this morning to the picture above!
Both of them more than doubled overnight. There has to be a lot said for taking cues from the smells! I knew I was initially getting lactobacillus activity, and the lowered pH had to bring out the yeast sooner or later, but those big early bubbles were such a tease.
I think now that it was as my brother said - the house is too damn cold! We've been between 60-65 degrees the last month, and I don't think my best efforts to warm them gave the yeast enough time to multiply. I was scared of underfeeding them, so I refrigerated them but this probably delayed the process even more (although the only time I saw hooch was after the first two days in the fridge).
I just had to share this with everyone because it was quite a journey but I feel that I may have finally achieved a stable starter that will let me join the ranks of wild yeast bakers of the past and present! At this point, I am going to feed it a couple more times using the same method that I did last night. I won't have a chance to refresh it until this evening, so it will be a little less than 24 hours after its last feeding. Any suggestions as to how to take it from this point would be greatly appreciated. I just can't wait to test it out with a loaf!
Go back to wholegrain. Very good for your starter. I cannot see any photo, it's not showing for some reason. Work computer servers aren't too good.
So here is an idea (it always is when it comes to starters as everyone here has their own method and all perfectly good)... Wholegrain is good for starters and whole rye even better. I keep a whole rye starter and make preferments building with the correct flour and to the correct hydration. I also find whole rye starters to be very hardy and keep very well in the fridge between feedings. In fact it just gets better and better.
I don't keep too much mother starter at any one time. I'll build enough, about 100g-150g, allow it to bubble up by half then keep in the fridge. Each time i'll take a little off and build preferments. When the mother starter runs low i'll take it out, feed it, allow it to bubble up by half and return it to the fridge and the process starts again.
Starters, when kept this way, can go for longer periods between feeds (at room temperature they need to be fed everyday but in the fridge it'll be a lot longer) but when they form hooch on top it means they need another feed. In the past when I've had wheat starters they could go for a week between feeds but my whole rye starter can go for weeks.
Don't make a home for it in the fridge till you've had a successful bake. Once you've had a success then you can start to think about storage.
Try this recipe...
VERMONT SOURDOUGH
by
Jeffrey Hamelman
Recipe
Flour : 490g [440g bread flour, 50g rye]
Water : 267g
Salt : 10-11g
Levain : 196g @ 125% hydration
Levain Build : 14g starter + 102g water + 80g bread flour [12-14 hours before]
METHOD
1. Mix flours with water and levain until well combined. Let the dough rest (autolyse) for 30 minutes.
[measure out the water in the bowl add the levain and mix till fully incorporated and turns milky white. Then add the flour and form the dough but don't knead at this point, just form the dough and rest for 30 minutes]
2. Add the salt and knead by hand till fully incorporated & medium gluten formation [5-10min].
3. Let the dough ferment at room temperature for 2.5 hours with folds at 50 minutes and 100 minutes.
4. Shape on floured surface and let rest for 15 minutes.
5. Shape again into banneton with seam side up and final proof for 2-2.5 hours [or leave out for 20min then refrigerate till ready].
6. When ready turn the dough out onto prepared baking tray, score and bake in pre-heated oven.
I plan on visiting a "fancy" grocery store my first day of winter break to purchase better flour. I typically never get bleached AP but it was between a 10 pound bag of that and a 50 pound bag of unbleached, and I was not ready to deal with the inevitability of mopping the floor after storing it. :) On my list is regular unbleached AP, whole wheat and rye.
I must say, thank you for the awesome, thoughtful reply! The description of your mother starter maintenance was very helpful. It's amazing how little starter is needed to build the levain. I'll give the Vermont bread a shot this weekend - thanks for the recipe suggestion and for your very specific advice on how to take it from here!
Looks good to me. Risen a lot! I think you'll have no problem baking with it. It's a nice recipe and I always recommend it. When you create the starter to go into the bread you'll notice the hydration is higher than 100%. This will mean it'll still bubble a lot but not rise as much. Don't worry! any questions don't hesitate to ask. Best of luck and look forward to seeing the result.
- Abe.
I fed it 1:1:1 and it doubled entirely by morning, but not more than 2x the original volume. Yesterday morning it was closer to tripled.
I'm guessing this could be the effect of a change in hydration? My first successful feed Wednesday night had a lower hydration I think, 3 tbs starter (about 100% hydration) plus 3 tbs flour and 1 tbs water. Something like 77% hydration as opposed to 100% hydration when I fed it at 1:1:1, which would maybe explain the less impressive rise this morning.
In any case, I'm going to start the levain before I leave for work this morning, then hopefully be able to bake tonight after I get home. Thank you and dobie for your awesome help and advice.
Harper
Now that you have earned you first degree in sourdough, let me recommend that you reward yourself with a digital scale. Doesn't have to be expensive.
Weights are so much easier and repeatable than measures, and grams are so much easier than ounces (on the 'math' part of your brain).
Keep going brother.
dobie
I just bought one last night!!!
Going to attempt to make the dough. I couldn't get rye tonight (going to have to make a special trip tomorrow for that) but I am too impatient to wait until then. If it's awful I'll just have to bake again tomorrow, ha! I'll be back later to share my results.
Harper
Very cool that you grabbed a scale.
I think you are right not to worry about the Rye (or the rest of it), that will come in time.
Impatience, as well as patience, are some of the best qualities of a baker, I think. Urgency within calm.
I would agree to just bake away and not bake in fear. Your worst failures will be well beyond most of the crap in the market.
I don't think you can really go wrong within an honest attempt.
And if so, as you say; there is always tomorrow.
dobie
I completely agree in fact my new years resolution is not to purchase a single pre made loaf! This thread was great I can't wait to kick off my starter. I purchased a nineteenth century starter from Bavaria and a historic San Fran from a now closed bakery that was one of the originals both from a reputable vendor. I'll post pics of the process (and problems) once they arrive :) thanks again for the post and long live your new pet!
D Harper
First things first. Please pull over when posting, please. I would hate to think that would be your last 'lol' or anyone elses.
You have successfully blown two 'sourdough' caveats out of the water with one shot. Bleached flour and tap water are supposed no-no's.
But I can't argue with success, and it seems to me that you have succeeded quite well. Maybe the rules need to be revisited.
It did take you a while tho, and as Abe suggests, I too have found Rye to be the best to begin a starter with. My current one was only 5 days in before I was baking with it.
Regardless, I think you are 'there', and that's a nice straight forward recipe Abe posted that would make for a fine first bread.
If I had any suggestions should you ever find your self 'starting' again, they would be (aside from the Rye and filtered water); to stir a few times a day, but don't feed it until you see signs of activity (surface bubbles). It could take two or three days (or longer with bleached and tap).
Another would be; don't discard at first. Keep the beasties you've got. Discarding when feeding, will just dilute them. Then, once it is truly active, discard to your hearts content.
Once active, a feeding of 1:1:1 (starter, flour, water) would be my preference (but there are many ways). Once it is fairly well established, you can wean it to whatever hydration or flour type you care to.
You will probably find a feeding/use schedule that could result in little if any discard at that point (if you wanted). Just opinions.
You have done quite well tho (no matter how many rules you have broken in the process) and I hope you make it home alive to begin the dough.
dobie
I promise the only looking down I had to do was to click submit, but I'll try to refrain from "double-tasking" like that in the future.
Thank you for the starting suggestions. I sort of jumped ahead to discarding, and read only on Day 4 or 5 that people don't do so until there is activity. I would like to start another one with rye flour because I've heard so much about its application to wild yeast cultivation. I haven't seen much about stirring, but I will give it a shot. Oxygenation, I assume?
As for the bleached flour, I think it may have been effective because there were some beasties left over from the initial whole wheat, and they eventually reproduced enough. I am assuming the bleaching is discouraged when first starting the culture, because the process kills the wild yeast; perhaps it is an adequate way of feeding the existing yeast that came from my first 5 days or so with whole wheat flour.
My biggest question as of right now is whether 24 hours til the next feed is too long. I would have fed it this morning but I usually don't have much time.
Harper
You kids and your new fangled technologies.
Sorry, I didn't know. Glad you are being safe.
The stirring is just to redistribute the evolving sugars and beasties as well as oxygenation, and it tends to kick up the process a bit.
I'm sorry, I missed the part about starting with whole wheat. You are right, that was most likely the key to your success.
I think you are also right, that while bleached flour can provide food (starch to sugars) for the beasties, it is in all probability void of any wild yeast, if not enzymes. I'm not so sure about the enzymes tho.
While I would not discourage you from just beginning another starter with rye, I would suggest two other ways you could go about it.
One, would be that you could add a bit of your current starter to the Rye to kick start it.
Two, would be to take your next discard and add some Rye to it.
Basically, the same thing, just different views.
Or just start from scratch to see how the whole process works out now that you are more experienced (that's probably what I would do).
Regarding feeding your current; I would suggest that you clean the inner edges of your container after the next feed. This will let you see the 'snail trail' (so to speak) to let you know (when you get back to it) if any activitey has occurred. Other wise, it may have raised and collapsed and you would not know it.
Once it has raised to peak and collapsed, it would be time to feed, no matter the time extended. Intermittent stirring will help accelerate the process, particularly in the early stages of a starter.
Now, please go and make some dough and bake some bread. You have earned it.
dobie
It is a privilege to get such encouraging feedback from those with experience and expertise.
It had started to fall when I got home yesterday. I ultimately fed it about 24 hours after the first feed at a 1:1:1 ratio, which doubled but didn't rise as much as the Wednesday night feed (I mused above that this was due to an increase in hydration).
Going to stop by that "fancy" store tonight to get some rye for the recipe Abe posted. I do also intend to build a new starter from the rye to practice the process and become more familiarized with the signs and changes that occur. And ideally I'll have at least baked the bread and taken a pic by the wee hours of Saturday morning, so be ready for pictures (beautiful or ugly, ha). Thanks again!
Looking forward to it Harper
I agree, even if ugly, negative results are still results and well worth posting. That is the road to success for not only you, but everyone who contemplates it.
There is no shame (at least not in bread).
dobie
I tried to attach them to a post and failed!
The good:
http://tinypic.com/r/awz09e/9
http://tinypic.com/r/2q1f0ie/9
The ugly:
http://tinypic.com/r/sfbi9y/9
I always recommend this recipe Dobie. I think it's a great recipe to try first. I didn't know of this recipe when I first started and dove into the deep end. Wish I had!
Abe
Rarely am I in need of bread, but today is one of those days. Since all my other thoughts and experiments are still maturing, I think I just might make one myself today.
I like how you always provide the step by step with your recipes. I know it can become repeatitive, but it's a very useful practice.
Quick question, the levain ingredients are seperate from the main, not a part of? I'm pretty sure that's right, but just thought I'd ask, as I've made some pretty basic mistakes in the past (and I want to keep them there).
dobie
ps - I somewhere bumped into your yw 'experiment 1' of the Einkorn project, but now I can't re-find it. Can you point me in the right direction?
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44313/finding-perfect-einkorn-recipe
Although the yeast water version isn't written up yet. I put up the two options of sourdough and sourdough/yeast water and did the sourdough first. Then I did a yeast water only version but have not updated the formula. Same flour/water/salt ratios just rearranged so that the flour within the yeast water starter was 20% of the added flour.
Yes, with the Vermont Sourdough the levain is an ingredient. So we have the flour, water, salt and levain (or starter). Each an ingredient and you've got the levain preparation 12-14 hours before.
I have just emailed D Harper a more detailed recipe - please check your private messages! And I'll email you too now.
Thank you Abe
I do have that main thread tracked. I thought I came upon you mentioning it on another thread, and just assumed there were pics (that of course, I can't see until I go to another computer). Wrong assumption.
I am curious to see and hear about how the yeast water worked with Eikorn.
My own little raisin brew is finally taking off I think. It seems that paying attention to the details and no being so cavalier, has it's benefits. Once I got it out of the 60-65F room temp and into the 80-85F proofer, it seems to be behaving as advertised. I can't wait to bake with it.
By the way, equally exciting (for me anyway) is that my Kombucha starter is alive and well. I think this is day three and I've pretty much ignored it (other than a stir or two) until this morning when I gave it a good feed. It too is in the proofer today and I better get back to it soon, as it's about to try and escape over the edge.
Not sure where to go with the K Starter, but since the Vermont SD is awaiting its first S&F in a few minutes, maybe I'll just repeat the process tomorrow with the Kombucha starter (for an honest comparison). I think dbm would love this stuff as it starts out very sour to begin with, and I expect great sour from it.
And thanks about the levain. I guessed right.
dobie
Abe
Thanks for sharing the recipe. After yesterday's debacle (when I mistakenly used 'sprouted' Rye rather than regular), today's effort was much more successful.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151220VermontSD-Side_zpsbnuf2ctj.jpg.html
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151220VermontSD-Top_zps6dp9or98.jpg.html
It was actually a very easy recipe (and other than building the levain in the morning), it took less than 5 hrs from mix until out of the oven with maybe 15 minutes hands on.
If it eats anywhere near as nice as it looks, it'll be a fine start to Christmas week. Crumb shot in the morning.
Girl was a bit annoyed by a complete cooling, and I quote, 'You know, people do eat warm bread' and then dejectedly, 'Well, if you don't want it eaten...' a veiled threat I believe.
Next attempt will be the same recipe using the Kombucha starter.
dobie
ps - thanks for all the help via PMs to help me figure out my problem yesterday.
pss - how's it going Harper?
But we want the crumb shot!
As for me, I have been on a bread frenzy! That, and cleaning house (which fits so nicely into a bread baking schedule).I got my rye flour this morning and am onto Vermont sourdough loaf #2, which is about 2 hours from the oven! I've also been tracking my starter and was excited to smell a distinct yeasty aroma when I checked it this morning.
Glad you got your Rye Harper.
I agree that the whole bread making process works well with puttering around inside and outside the house. Probably why I don't get too many compaints about the fixation (that and an occassional decent loaf).
Crumb shot in the morning.
Good luck with Vermont 2. Post pics and stay frenzied.
dobie
Absolutely lovely. I know, it's so difficult to wait till completely cooled before cutting into it. It is worth it though as you don't want the gooey centre. Great oven spring and i'm sure delicious!
Here it is.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151220VermontSD-Crumb_zpsj57qo7hn.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0
The sour is low, and the crumb is moist and tender (but not gummy).
A little caraway and this would be a perfect 'Deli Rye' sandwich bread.
dobie
I went on a sourdough journey about two years ago, without much success. I don't think I ever made a stable culture. This one feels promising to me, so your well-vetted recipe removes an extra element of uncertainty, exactly what we new bakers need. I thank you for the valuable insight!
The best thing you can do for a new starter is stir it often. Good luck with the bake and let us know how it goes.
For the record, I have made new starter several times for one reason or another. I have yet to have one fail using Debra Wink's pineapple juice method.
I never considered its importance. How often do you do it? And this is when you're just looking for activity, correct, not doubling in size? I'll be making a rye starter tomorrow for fun (and because rye is awesome), looking forward to trying out all these new tips!
Harper
I agree with Maverick that frequent stirring of a new starter is a good thing. Of course, when ever you get around to it, but 3 or 4 times a day would not be out of the norm.
Even once it becomes active, it is not such a bad thing to stir then as well. Even tho it will degass and deflate it, doing so will also invigorate the process as it grows on.
At least that has been my experience.
dobie
I'm terrible at shaping and the loaf burst at the bottom on one side. It became very lopsided, hence the "ugliness" that I was attempting to share. I'll have to figure out how to put pics in a reply. Also, I let the bottom burn a little. I really need to get a better surface for baking. VERY glad that I ended up lowering the temp to 450, because I've had a feeling my oven runs hot.
The bread tastes AWESOME!!!!!!!!! I can easily say it is the best bread I have made in years, if not ever. There is a palatable sourness to it that is very different from the smell of the starter. It is comparable to the Boudin brand SF sourdough, which was surprising because my past attempts at sourdough baking tasted nothing like the bread I had grown up eating. I'm very, very happy and want to bake another loaf tomorrow!!!
The good:
http://tinypic.com/r/awz09e/9
http://tinypic.com/r/2q1f0ie/9
The ugly:
http://tinypic.com/r/sfbi9y/9
delete
delete
Harper
That's a mighty fine looking loaf.
So you had a little blow out and a slightly scorched bottom. Believe me, things could have been worse and still made great bread. I fail several times a week and only hope to not repeat the same errors time and again.
Always refineing. And clearly that is all that would be required of you for a more picture perfect bread, but again, that loaf looks pretty darn good.
dobie
Having that teeny 14 grams of starter make this bread was a huge step forward for me, and makes me excited to improve more. I guess I'll have to eat a lot of bread. "Oh no." :) thanks for all the help!
After the starter build (or preferment) the final starter that went into the bread was more than 14 grams. The preferment became the starter. Given enough time the smallest amount of starter will inoculate a big loaf. It'll just need a longer ferment and will increase the flavour.
Shaping is just technical stuff. The purpose of this bake was to put your starter through its paces and it passed. Makes bread and tasty bread to boot. Everything else just comes with practice. Lovely bake. Now here's a few tweaks you can do...
1. When shaping (look in YouTube to get ideas on how to shape which will be helpful) place the dough seam side down! So when you flip it over it has a natural scoring. So no need to worry about scoring before placing in the oven.
2. I think it blew out because it crusted over too quickly so couldn't rise more. The steam had nowhere to go except out the sides. Trick is steam. Steam should help but very difficult in some ovens. Steam trays don't really help too much. If you have a Dutch Oven or something similar like a casserole pot that you can preheat in the oven then this will get round the problem. Turn the dough out onto a piece of baking parchment then drop the dough into the Dutch Oven, or pot, then cover and bake. For the last 10 minutes take the lid off for a good crust.
Just some tweaks and ideas to be made but that was a success. Bon Appetite.
My best loaves this year were the ones I made in my new "dutch oven" (deep cast iron skillet with lid). I've never had good results trying to add steam, but the dutch oven takes care of that for me. As for the effect of steam, does it prevent the crust from solidifying prematurely? I always read it has an effect on the final crispness of the crust but I haven't read how it affects oven spring and the beginning stages of crust development.
I was thinking of putting the bread in one slot higher than I did last time to avoid the overbrowning of the bottom crust but I'm going to do the same rack as last time to avoid confounding variables :)
I put the dough in the dutch oven cold. I haven't preheated it after reading an extensive thread about why it isn't necessary. I do use a layer of rice on the bottom covered with parchment paper in an adaptation of what people have done with grits.
Harper
I'm gonna step aside on the 'steam' conversation (as I think there are others more qualified to discuss the science of it), but I will say that I have had success with it.
However, I agree with you that a DO is just simpler. Here is my treatise on the matter, if helpful.
A few months back I posted my test results comparing cold and hot DO bakes (as several others have), with identical dough, treated in the same manner other than that the one in the hot DO had 45 minutes more cold retard (from overnight). An insignificant difference I believe.
My evaluation was that the difference in results were minimal. That seems to jibe with most of the other similar experiments I've read about. I did make the mistake of putting the cold DO into a cold oven and I feel a hot oven would have been a better idea.
While there was a slight improvement in oven spring with the hot DO, considering the risk to both hands and dough to get it in there, I felt at the time, that they were risks not worth taking. Both cold and hot produced quite nice breads.
One day I came upon a post on TFL (and I'm sorry I can't remember who) where they described making a 'sling' with the parchment paper base and that that makes entering the dough to the hot DO, much safer for hands and dough.
So, the next time I baked in a DO, I went hot and I cut the circle of parchment for the bottom allowing for a 2-3 inch wide by 2-3 inch long tab on opposite sides. This has actually worked out quite well for both my hands and the dough (no dropping, but gently placing down instead and no burnt knuckles).
So I'm back to baking with a hot DO. I get a little better spring and I feel safe doing so. Your mileage may vary.
I also no longer coat the DO with oil or use rice flour, corn meal, semolina or anything else. Just bare ass naked parchment paper, with no problems (of course the boule has a light dusting of flour). In fact, I use the same paper numerous times, until it eventually starts to fall apart.
As long as I'm rambling along, generally, I heat the lid and pot seperated. I heat my oven to max (525F) no convection. Then when the dough is in the DO with the lid on and in the oven, I turn it down to 475F and bake for 15 minutes.
Then, I remove the lid, turn on the convection and lower the temp to 435F and bake for 15 minutes. Then I remove the bread from the DO and finish at 400F for another 15 minutes bare on the rack. This usually brings me to an internal temp of 205 - 210F.
Now different doughs will require a little refinement of that plan, but for me it's usually just keeping a check on it every 5 minutes once it's baking open on the rack.
I've found that by using a lower rack, my bottoms don't get as scorched. In a way, that doesn't make sense to me as it's closer to the heat source, but it works for me (probably because heat rises).
That's all I've got.
dobie