Using malted grains
I stopped in at a brewing supply shop yesterday and picked up a pound of malted rye and a pound of malted wheat. These are fully diastatic malts. They can be roasted or toasted to convert them to non diastatic malts, prior to use in breads. That is most likely what I will do with them, since the flours I buy tend to be malted already and I don't care to have runaway starch attack in the dough.
That said, there are very few breads in my repertoire that call for malted anything and those usually require the malted rye. Googling hasn't turned up much that I hadn't seen here on TFL already. So, do any of you have some suggestions for breads using either wheat or rye malt? It would be fun to branch out with some new breads that use my new ingredients.
Thanks in advance.
Paul
Sorry, I can't help on this one but will be interested to see what you turn up and bake!
You might want to try a granary-style bread. I've made a couple of attempts after I brought back a bag of Dove's Malthouse Bread Mix from a trip. I picked up some malted barley, and used some malted barley yeast syrup, but I think it needs some malted wheat. Might make a trip to the homebrewer's supply now...
That's what I have seen in photos. The malted grains I purchased are whole kernels. Not having a flaker mill, I will need to grind them unless I make a vollkornbrot style bread.
Paul
Not in the loaf. They're whole malted grains. 'Granary' loaves do often have flaked grains on the outside, however.
'Granary' is actually a registered trademark of Hovis and for bread to be called 'granary' in the UK it has to be made with Hovis' own mix. It looks as if it's made with wholemeal flour but it's actually 'brown' flour.
I use Shipton Mills "Light Malthouse" flour for my overnight sourdough "maltsters" - as Jon mentions the word Granary is a trademark - at least in the UK (however I did once try to contact them about it and basically hit a stone wall) Seeing some supermarkets sell a Granary loaf without any mention of TM or otherwise, I wonder if it's gradually falling into common use, like calling a Dyson vacuum cleaner a "hoover", etc ...
However I'm not brave enough to try calling my bread made with malted flour and "bits" in it, granary!
I did try another mills similar flour - Stoates/Cann Mill "Maltstar". It did not perform well in overnight/long ferment sourdoughs, but works just fine with yeast in a conventional recipe. I've no idea why, but haven't bought any more to try to find out.
Incidentally, Shipton Mills "Three Malts and sunflower seed" mix is really nice. Shame they don't supply it bulk or I'd be using that rather than their light malthouse.
-Gordon
...and supermarkets might get away with things which would land the big boys in trouble, but only by slipping under the radar for a while. Safer to stick with Maltsters.
Agreed on the Three Malts and Sunflower Seed. I bought one bag and used it in combination with several other flours when I first started buying from Shipton. Don't know why I haven't bought any since. I've never used it on its own, so maybe that's one for the next order.
you have said such kind things about me, I will give away one of the secrets (but never the formula) of my wickedly delicious chocolate baguettes. It is a very small percentage of chocolate malted rye. I tried chocolate malted wheat and that was not as good.
You might also enjoy malted wheat in yeasted (or sourdough) waffles - I know I do.
Pat
Pat
I'm hoping you or dbm can tell me how to make 'chocolate malted rye'. I assume it's like dbm has described making 'red malted rye', only taken further.
Any temps to shoot for or techniques special to the process?
TIA,
dobie
I do it is to drive to my local home brew store and buy a bag of "chocolate malted rye."
I have a tendency to get immersed and very detail oriented when I do things and after visiting the malting floor and talking to the master malter in one of our local distilleries, I decided that if I never started, I wouldn't have to be stopped.
I do fresh mill it - which requires a mill cleaning so that the next batch of grain doesn't have fairly substantial traces of this very dark malt.
Proth5
Good point on the cleaning of the mill (post diastatic grind).
Gathering from what you are saying, I might be able to go to my local beer brewery and they could perhaps lead me to a local 'master malter'? That sounds like a good idea.
And I agree, starting is always easier than stopping (even when it's in you own best self interests).
Of course, I still want to make my own (at least once).
Thank you
dobie
Lemme guess: said baguettes contain flour, water, and salt, too. Oh, and chocolate!
Am I getting warmer? :-)
Paul
I try to be a bit more generous, but I worked too hard on this formula. I will admit to both sourdough and commercially yeasted pre ferments (similar to my regular baguettes.) A mix of cocoa powders and chopped chocolate.
But in what percents? And what kinds? Ah, there I will stop.
And give you a project to make on your own...
Pat
Pat
Ah ha. I see. Thank you very much. That was unexpected. Really 'chocolate'.
Being a big fan of baguettes and chocolate, that must be some interesting bread.
dobie
Since I don't think I've made a baguette since working with Mark, that project probably won't make the list. However, should I find myself in Denver, I may wheedle a bite or two of your invention.
Today's interests include playing with malts and diving back into the rye pool again.
Paul
is to do a low temperature, baked scald, 140 F max, for a couple of hours using just the sifted out 20% hard bits only - stirring every 20 minutes, so it stays diastatic bit. Then use this to feed the levain for a nice rye bread.
Happy baking Paul
dbm
You know I'm usually only willing to be 'so' idiotic in my questions, but in this case I must risk that ratio.
When you say 'scald', I'm thinking fluid (probably water) is involved. Is that so?
Now I'm just guessing, but do you mean water and bran (once at 140F) into the oven at 140F for a few, stirred hours?
Help me please.
dobie
A normal scald would be made on the cooktop but a baked one is even better on my book because of the extra browning that happens when the top of the scald dries out in the convection oven and the Maillard Effect really kicks in. My favorite scald has altus, Toadies, erd and white malt and sprouted flour in it with twice the weight of water baked at 140 F stirring down every 30 minutes for at least 2 hours. It even works for white breads! Like this one
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41663/sd-sprouted-wheat-bread-weird-scald
dbm
I checked out your link, very interesting.
Two questions, most of the ingredients I get, but what is 'erd'?
If I were to attempt to make it, what end result would I be looking for (texture, hydration-wise)? Should it be dry (I doubt it) or a 'slurry' (so to speak)? I noticed you added water a couple of times, if I remember correctly.
Is it almost an unfiltered diastatic malt syrup (or am I barking up the wrong tree)?
Thanks
dobie
Some of the stuff in the scald is non diastatic like the red malt, toadies and altus - where all of them were heated above 170.4 F where the all the enzymes in those ingredients were denatured.
The whole grain flours would be still be diastatic when in comes to amylase a and b but the protease would be denatured at 140 F.
I add the weight of all the dry ingredients and then ad twice that amount of water to start. Since the Maillard reaction won't happen until the water of the surface s gone, I stir it every 30 minutes to bring new wet stuff to the surface from below so that it can be browned. If it gets too dry, I add a bit of water while it is baking. At the end if 2 hours I weigh what is left ever and add enough water to the mix to get it back to tits original weight and hydration of 200%.
So I suppose moist of the mix remains non diastatic since it was non diastatic when it went in - except for the whole grain flour.
Thank you dbm,
I think I get it.
dobie
A normal scald would be made on the cooktop but a baked one is even better on my book because of the extra browning that happens when the top of the scald dries out in the convection oven and the Maillard Effect really kicks in. My favorite scald has altus, Toadies, erd and white malt and sprouted flour in it with twice the weight of water baked at 140 F stirring down every 30 minutes for at least 2 hours. It even works for white breads! Like this one
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41663/sd-sprouted-wheat-bread-weird-scald
I've seen how red rye malt and a scald can each lead to significantly darker bread. In fact, one of the test breads for Stan's upcoming book was a deep cocoa color, even though none of the ingredients were anything more than tan in color.
So you hold out the coarser fraction after milling the malted grain, then use it in the scald? What percentage of still-diastatic malt do you use, typically? If it is very much, I'd be concerned about excess starch conversion to sugar, with detrimental effects on the dough.
Thanks,
Paul
about 10 g each of the 4 sprouted (not malted) grains in the scald. It is the brown food is good flavor I am really after with the toadies and red malt adding complexity to the taste enhancer. There isn't really any need for more then 5 g of diastatic malt in the mix. I would take quite a bit of your malted grain and make most of it into red non diastatic malt since I use so much sprouted grain in bread mixes already - if it wasn't going into the mash now that it is winter time and prime beer making time in Arizona.
Happy baking with malts Paul
140? that's quite low, really. when brewing beer, the typical temp is 150F for an hour, in a mix a similar texture to oatmeal before it's cooked, to get a complete conversion. Different temps get you different complexities of sugar composition, the higher (hottest at about 165) the more complex the sugars, the lower (down to about 140) the simpler.
protease not the Amylase a and b which are killed off at 170.4 F. I don't like mashing at much over 150F because while you are right a higher tempt will provide not necessarily more complex sugars but more of them. The problems begin though with a very thick mash that results and is hard to filter. What I like to do instead is to take the temperature up from 152 F or so to 172 F as fast as possible to get the last of the sugar at the higher temperature which happens fast while not making a thick mash as a result - the best of both worlds. I also want to make sure that all the enzymes are dead so that I can control the flavor from there onward without having to worry what these enzymes are doing to the taste once the temperatures are lowered to do fermentation for 7-10 days.
Happy Brewing.
is totally different than the Granary Flour they sell in the UK to make bread. The Granary flour in the UK is what we would call sprouted grain flour in the US where it is sprouted for less than 24 hours until the grain just chits. The diastatic power of this Granary flour is much less than the malted grains you bought and are perfectly fine to make bread with as PR's new book Bread Revolution points out. Your malted grains are sprouted for 4-5 days until the sprout (not the rootlets) reaches at least the length of the seed itself before drying.
Even malts made for brewing come in different diasttic powers. Barley and wheat have about the same maximum diastatic power of around 160-180 if you disregard the new wheat varieties that come in at 200. I'm not sure what kind you got but malted grains sold at the brewery store can range from zero for dark malts like chocolate and double chocolate that are heated above 172.4 F to denature the amylase enzymes completely to the rye malt you got that is about half the diastatic power of around 40-80 depending on the process used and the regular base malts of 70-120.
Millers add about .6 of 1% diastatic white malt to their white flours to replace the diastatic power sifted out from the whole grain. M ost of the enzymes brewers and bakers are interested in are found in the bran portions of the grains. Another thing to remember is that protease is what breaks down the proteins that form gluten in bread. The enzymes that break down starches into sugars, amylase a and b, that the wee beasties need to eat, don't degrade gluten or break protein chains. Recent scientific studies have shown that the concern some bakers have of too much protease activity in bread that turns the dough into goo are wildly overblown and hardly ever happen in the baking process.
But if you are worried that extra white, diastatic malt included in the baked scald may cause this happen - no worries....science comes to the rescue even it not necessary. Protease denatures at 140 F. When I make the baked scald in the Mini Oven. the temperature is set to 150 F convection with the door ajar. This leaves the actual temperature for drying at exactly 142 F when checked with the temperature probe. This denatures any protease in the scald but has no effect on the amylase a and b required to break down the starch into sugars.
The reason I like to use the bran portion of grains, especially those used in the scald. is that I want a more sour bread. The experiments that Doc.Dough has done recently, which he hasn't published yet, point out that when bran is used in any stage of bread making, the acid production of the LAB increases and when done at higher temperatures for the liquid ferment and proving the acid production is even higher. Many have long assumed that whole grains and higher temperatures lead to more sour but his experiments prove it as have my many bakes where taste was used instead of scientific instruments.
While color is one reason to use a scald the other is taste and taste always reigns supreme in my book. There is nothing I have found that acts like a super flavor enhancer in bread or beer, for that matter, than a baked scald. Toadies are distant 2nd when it comes to enhancing flavor in bread and adding them to a baked scald is the beast way to use them:-)
I used to think I made some pretty great tasting SD breads but this past year of experimenting with malts, sprouted grains, baked scald combinations, using the bran and scalds to feed starters and levains while using various temperatures has been my personal bread revolution. None of my personal bread awakenings would have been possible without the folks on TFL. Each of these things were brought to my attention over the past 3 years by people on the TFL. Using them in combination is the fun part. I still don't know why some things work........ like what is it that bran brings to the party that allows the LAB to make more acid than normal white flour? I personally think that the buffering capacity of the bran is much greater and this is what allows the LAB to make a greater amount of acid before the LAB are inhibited but I have no way to prove it or what it is in the bran exactly that causes the extra buffering capacity. So much to learn and so little time left!
Just think. There are 30 different proteins in grains and each has an enzyme that breaks these protein chains into smaller amino acids and, when amino acids are baked, they make flavor but we don't know which ones make what flavor. We are still pretty ignorant when it comes to bread.
Sorry this got to be so long Paul .
dabrownman
Thank you for the very detailed and informative posts.
I'm about to build another Sprouted 4 Grain Sourdough boule tomorrow.
I've also been looking for a place to try tang zhong for a while now. As I read your post, particularly the point about the Protease enzymes being denatured at 140F, but not the Amylase a & b, this thought crossed my mind.
If I take the sprouted 4 grain flour (only chitted, not fully sprouted) bran and all, that is to be 50% of the flour (with the other 50% being Bread flour) and made a Tang Zhong roux with it (to 142F), any protease in it would be denatured and thus not threaten the gluten stucture in a long cold retard of the final dough.
Is this sound thinking, or am I missing something?
Thanks
dobie
dabrownman
Thank you for the very detailed and informative posts.
I'm about to build another Sprouted 4 Grain Sourdough boule tomorrow.
I've also been looking for a place to try tang zhong for a while now. As I read your post, particularly the point about the Protease enzymes being denatured at 140F, but not the Amylase a & b, this thought crossed my mind.
If I take the bran from the sprouted 4 grain flour (only chitted, not fully sprouted) and perhaps some of the flour and made a Tang Zhong roux with it (to 142F), any protease in it would be denatured and thus reduce the Protease threat to the gluten stucture in a long cold retard of the final dough.
I'm thinking that would help with a lighter crumb, but maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks
dobie
The problem with tang zhong is that is done on the stove top where controlling the temperature is near impossible. But no worries. There isn't any more bran in it than a wholegrain bread where the bran is sifted out and fed to the levain. The protease problem in bread making ..... is vastly over stated and hardly ever is a problem.
You want some protease action to degrade some gluten stands to keep the bread from being rubbery especially when using high gluten flour. What TZ does is gelatinize some of the flour. The 2 ways that amylase a and b can work on the flour is to have the starch damages during milling , a good thing, and or gelatinize the starch granules. The acid in the SD can also break down some of the bran in the mix to soften it and allow the enzymes to get at the starch.
Thank you dbm,
I'm reading your 'Toady Tang Zhong Multigrain Sourdough Boule' right now, which as it turns out is pretty similar to what I had in mind.
I will figure out my approach by tomorrow. My mind is spinning with possibilities.
dobie
Hello Paul,
I am trying a similar thing by playing with grains from brewer supply store. As I mostly want to add flavor i want to deactivate the amylase too.
How did it go? Did you try it? Barley Malt seems to always have husks attached so it is not usable. The Brewer supply store sometimes will crack the grains for you if you ask but that might make it difficult to re bake. As it's been 7 years i hope you may have figured this out by now.
I think "chocolate malts" and other highly toasted or colored grain have low diastatic power to begin with. But I couldn't find "chocolate wheat" or whatever the dark wheat is.
Should I assume all the malt extract powder they sell is also diastatic? Even the dark ones?
I still have most of the malt that I mentioned in the original post. So, no, I haven’t found uses for mass quantities of malted grain.
So far, the most common use is as an auxiliary ingredient for added sweetness or flavor or color. The last two usually require toasting or roasting to a darker color, which also converts it from diastatic to non-diastatic malt.
I occasionally add the diastatic malt, after milling it to powder, to my home-milled flours although I’m not sure that it is necessary. The white flours I use are already malted, so they don’t require any more malt.
Dark malts are usually non-diastatic. Lighter malt extract powders may or may not may not be diastatic. You'll have to read the label to know for sure.
Paul