November 10, 2015 - 2:52pm
Add sprouted berries to poolish?
Still pretty new at this 'sprouted' thing.
In a few hours I will be mixing a sourdough poolish for tomorrow. I have some perfectly sprouted rye, wheat and kamut berries that I want to add in to the dough somehow.
Any thoughts as to whether they should be added to the poolish, or incorporated in the morning's dough?
If in the AM dough, early or later in development?
Thanks
dobie
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Dobie,
Best to read up on why farmers pay attention to falling numbers. That will give you a better understanding of what is happening when you add your sprouted grains to a dough you are mixing.
That said, when I use sprouted grains I sprout only minimally - no root other than the small 'chit' is visible. In my kitchen this happens within 12 hours after being soaked for 12 hours. (Kitchen temp. approx. 70%) I add the grains to my final dough at about 20% and whole. The gluten development in the rest of the dough is not compromised this way.
I came to this % through mere experimentation in my kitchen with the breads I bake and the other ingredients added to the dough like eggs, butter or honey.
If I dehydrate the sprouted grains I then grind as needed for a loaf and keep the % at 25% without compromising the crumb. I bake with 100% whole wheat freshly milled so my doughs have more enzyme activity that when someone uses BF or AP flours. If using those flours I imagine you can go higher in your %.
Good Luck.
Janetcook,
I've heard about falling numbers but don't know yet what it really is (grain hydration, maybe) but I'll check it out.
These sprouts are a little more along than chitted. The chitted part was dehydrated and ground and will be about 33% of total flour. While that was happening, I let these go on and the sprout is about equal in size to the berry.
The remainer of the flour will be KA Bread.
I just did a quick check on the 'Falling Numbers' link you provided, and that relates directly to what I'm trying to do with this loaf (keep the gluten from puddling).
My plan is to poolish (at a 100% hydration) all of the sprouted flour overnight. In the morning, I will be adding the Bread flour and stretch and fold over an hour or two until the gluten is tight.
Then (hopefully), preshape, rise, final shape, final rise and bake. We'll see if that can all happen before beddy bye time. I think it will. My starter is recently fed and active.
It's all very experimental for me. The sprouts I have would be equal to about 25% of the flour total (but not included as 'flour' weight).
From what you say, I think I'm going to incorporate the sprouts during the later stretch and folds.
Thanks again,
dobie
the 20% hard bits and feed them to the SD starter at 100% hydration. If you don[t have enough to make the size of levain you want just add in some of the 80% extraction sprouted flour. Poolish is usually made with a pinch of commercial yeast flour and water at 100% hydration or even more. I don't think you are doing that.
The levain loves feasting on the hard bits, they will be softened and broken down by the acid produced by the LAB and the bread will be more sour too.- a 3'fer.
Adding whole sprouted grain really kicks up the chew and flavor of the crumb .....and the nutrition substantially.
Happy sprouting and baking.
yes, dbm
I've been following your posts pretty closely.
A few weeks ago I did a loaf that bastardized various versions of your 4 (and more) sprouted flour loaves. It was truly an eye opener in terms of flavor.
And you're right, my poolish is only with sourdough, no commercial yeast (and at 100% hydration). I can still call that poolish, yes? It will contain all of the milled sprouted grain (bran included) with equal water.
With that last loaf I did, I added the extracted bran by itself to the first levain and then triple built with the flour part. The first at room temp for 8 hours (at which point it was more than doubled and collapsed) then stirred and into the fridge for the remainder of 24 hours and built the rest the next day.
I have recently come to understand that it can sometimes be difficult for some to get 'sourdough' to be sour enough, and if so I would recommend poolish or ferments about 90F, long retards and now 'bran in the levain'. But I think the bran's greatest impact is in the overall flavor ('almost like beef', you might recall I said).
Even though my Dearly Beloved ate well from that loaf, I know it was a bit too sour for her (tho not for me), yet she loved the flavor overall. So, it is my goal to reduce the sour somewhat (I know you don't like to hear that, but it is what it is) yet maintain the flavor of the grain. Also not to over ferment and/or over proof, both of which I'm pretty sure I did last time that led to a less than stellar oven spring bloom. This coming loaf will tell me a lot.
Just about time for me to mix.
Thank you dabrownman,
dobie
Biga and poolish are terms for pre-ferments used in Italian and French (even though it is Polish) baking, respectively, for sponges made with domestic baker’s yeast. But here is King Arthur's definition of a bunch of different preferments and you don't want to mess with the king.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/preferments.html
I am a total and complete bread libertarian when it comes to most things including bread.and think folks should make the kind of bread they like the best no matter how they make it. It is all good and cause me no harm or foul in the least. I like sour bread others like less sour bread bit most folks don't like sour bread at all. Most folks don't have the time or schedule to make sourdough bread. Some want warm fresh bread in the morning and use a bread machine to have it every day - a real treat.to have bread made while you sleep if you ask me.
Happy baking
dbm
You are absolutely right, one doesn't want to mess with the King, be it Arthur or Burger (for different reasons).
I appreciate the link. From now on I will only refer to a 'poolish' when I am using commercial yeast and a 'levain' when using sourdough. I will refer to a 'poovain' when using both. ;-)
As long as we are on the subject, let me ask you a question. Normally (either poolish or levain) I go 100% hydration overnight (8-12 hrs). I generally will use 100% of the water in the recipe and sufficient flour to match it. I generally will add the more whole grain first and fill in with the AP or Bread flour to that level of hydration.
That is to follow the theory that the longer the flour is in the water (to a point), the better the flavor. So, I figured, the more the better, why not? But now I'm suspecting that the gluten might suffer for it (particulary by the enzymes in the whole grain flour) and it might be better not to do as much flour as possible, particularly the AP or Bread with whole grain involved.
What do you think?
dobie
flour, gluten degradation isn't usually an issue over 12 hours especially when the dough itself may be retarded for 24 hours or more. But it just points to another reason for a 3 stage levain build of progressively larger flour ans water feedings. The first feeding is in the levain for 12 hours, the 2nd larger feeding is there for 8 hours and the 3rd largest feeding that equals the first two combined is only there for 4 hours. I usually then retard the lavain for 12-24 hour on top of that.and never have problem even when the flour used is the extracted bran where the bulk of enzymes lie/ .
Sourdough bread things are, if anything, relative with lots pf myth rather than reality in play.
I do about everything possible to encourage runaway LAB, massive enzyme mayhem and acid gluten meltaway, with the way starters, levains and dough are built and retarded yet. I have never had a dough turn to goo - not once. Even when using a 24 week retarded starter 48 hour levain retard and 40 hour dough retard for the same bake . Why is that? Because i don't use much starter and levain in the mix is my answer plus retarding really slows things down after 8 hours.of cold.
Happy baking dobie
Thank you dbm
You've given me a lot to think about.
dobie
dbm
Just to wrap up, here's the basic similarities and differences in what I did between this loaf and my last Sprouted 3 grain one. This one I call Sprouted 4 grain because I used Hard Winter Red and Hard White in addition to equal parts Rye and Kamut.
I kept the Sprouted Grain flour at the same 30% of flour total. I kept the hydration at 70%.
I used Bread flour in addition this time rather than AP.
After giving my starter it's weekly feed the day before, I used 1/6th the amount that I did in the first loaf's (1st) levain. I only added the sprouted grain flour (bran and all), equal water weight and the small amount of starter to the levain and let it ferment 12 hrs. No further levain builds. I went right to building the final dough (adding the Bread flour and salt).
Stretch and folds were replaced by slap and folds as I felt it didn't tear at the gluten as much and the dough got tighter, quicker. Still took awhile, about 3 hrs at 1/2 hr intervals. Near the end I went back to strech and folds so I could sprinkle on the raw sprouts (5oz total, of the same grains).
Then the basic preshape, proof, final shape, proof. Slash and into a hot DO in a 500F oven immediatly reduced to 465F, lid on, 15 minutes. Then lid off, convection on, oven to 425F for 15 minutes. Then out of the DO and on to the oven rack at 400F for 15 minutes, at which point it was 204F internal and out to cool.
Not only did the bread not puddle (or frisbee, so to speak) but I actually got some decent (for me, anyway) oven spring, even ears on the scores. Imagine that.
The crust is not overly thick and is still (18 hrs later), crisp (just wrapped in a towel). The crumb is moist and tender and fairly well open and would make a nice sandwich.
However, flavor-wise, the sour is significantly reduced (I can't imagine a sourdough bread could be less sour). Also, swapping out the 2oz of rough ground flax and sesame seeds and the 2oz whole sunflower and pumpkin seeds with the 5oz of raw sprouted berries, I think must be the cause for the reduction of that intense 'beefy' flavor the last one had.
The sprouted berries are quite nice in the bread but next time I think I'll re-introduce some of seeds, looking for that 'beefy' thing.
Anyway, a lot was learned. I thank you dbm, MO and Janetcook for all your help. Much appreciated.
dobie
for sprouts sake, do it during the final shaping. Taste them first too. (had a bitter batch of sesame sprouts the other day)
Cleanly roll or pat out the dough (degassing) and sprinkle your sprouts all over the surface except for the last inch or two where you want to pinch or seal. Roll up tightly to prevent large bubbles and separation. Let rise and bake.
Some sprouts taste great when roasted first and cooled before tossing between layers of dough.
Mini Oven
I did taste them and almost just ate them right there they were so good.
By the time of your post, the sprouts were in and bread baked. I sprinkled them over the last 3 S&F's and by the time of the final shaping, they were poking thru the outer surface.
The bread however, baked up fine (probably the best of its type I've ever done) but some of those sprouted berries on the crust are harder than desirable.
Next loaf, I will try your idea.
Thank you
dobie
before baking with them has happened to me too. Also with hot soaked grain. Once I decided just to eat them and forget the bread and make more sprouts next time.