November 9, 2015 - 7:28pm
BANNETONS NOT REGULATION FOR NSW ?
Hey everyone, Im a baker in NSW Australia, and we just had the health inspector come and check out our little micro/home bakery and he says bannetons are not regulation.... So I know there are lots of Aussie bakers out there who use bannetons, what do you do?? My thought was to put them in an oven @ 60C for say 30mins to "sanitize" them, what say you??
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That's nuts.. they've been in use for hundreds of years! Here's some 'care instructions' that might help you with the issue.. good luck! http://www.brotformen24.de/gebrauchsanweisung.php
Use a fabric liner? I use linen made from flax.
I have no issue with my bannetons, they get a bit moist, we live in a warm humid climate half the year, so occasionally they might get some mould. So we brush them out and put a bit of white vinegar on the affected area, put them in the full sun... and or bake them! :) I dont like liners, they give me "brain drain" sticking and flopping my loaves no no no, bannetons are a dream.
... then no amount of washing, scrubbing, cleaning, drying, etc. will make any difference - if your local food hygiene people say no, then that's that.
However letting them get mouldy is bad management IMO. My bannetons are tapped/brushed out once the dough is into the ovens and they're put on-top/next-to the ovens to fully dry out. I've never had a problem, although I live in a cool/damp climate (England)
I have a few baskets with liners - never had them stick, but I always dust with plenty of flour...
How about visiting some local bakeries and asking them what they do? Maybe you got an inspector on a bad day...
-Gordon
As I said above we've had mould a couple of times due to humidity and have solved the issue by drying in the oven. For council they said theyre not sanitizable, but I think 60C should do it.
Like mentioned above, cleaning isn't the issue if they are not regulation. I like the idea of asking a local bakery what they do. Here are some solutions I believe will work.
1) Plastic banneton - I believe this is compliant. The problem is that it acts differently than wood.
2) Lining - Easily cleaned if that is the issue so should be compliant
3) Hair nets - One of the issues is the control for wood splinters so this should take care of that (yes this is crazy but I believe is part of the regulation in Australia). Put one over the banneton and swap it out each time (again nothing to clean if that is the problem). Sounds wasteful though.
I wonder how the inspector would feel about using something like a hairnet for direct food contact for which it isn't designed. Facilities that make product for direct food contact have higher level of hygiene, use different lubricants on machinery etc. than places that make non food contact supplies.
Gerhard
True, but I thought it might be worth asking. I still think plastic is the best bet besides a liner.
Every single contact surface, in contact with food should be wiped down with chlorine or something similar, timber benches dont cut it here either because they dont consider them sanitizable.
Whe you have 80 bannetons anything single use will be wasteful.
Been there done that, I tried plastic bannetons not only are they prohibitively expensive, they stick horribly. Our doughs are wetter/slack dough and they come through the gaps!
Amber108,
What a 'rip'…. What does your inspector say about using flax linen Couches for Baguettes??? Is there much difference? Both hold moist dough and flour. Then the Couche is shaken out and dusted after use and rolled up 'till next time.
Could you find an inexpensive 'linen' cloth to cut and line the banneton with… then dispose of it or wash it? Or is it the actual banneton he has an issue with?
I feel your pain!
Exactly! I was like "what !?" people have used these forever and still do all over the world, commercially and otherwise.... perhaps hes just not up to date?? Anyhow, I was just trying to think a way around it heat should sterilize dont you think? I'll have to ask around.
Thanks :)
Even if there are traces of mold on the banneton, the bread is going into an oven hot enough to kill any bacteria/mold that might be on the surface. The key issues will be with keeping the surfaces for cooling and bagging clean so that the baked bread does not get contaminated. I use both a flax linen couche for batards and baguettes and have two bannetons that I have nice cotton liners for. When not in use, the liners and couche are stored in my freezer following shaking off excess flour. I don't see any discoloration in either that would hint at mold contamination.
Did they give you any information about what types of bannetons are regulation?
I know, it sounds ridiculous, I'll have to look in to it more. My only possible solution so far is heating them after baking to kill any bacteria. Because we're a small home business he said it was passable, as many people just use their domestic kitchen for markets etc, but it wouldnt be ok for proper commercial production.
Thanks everyone, for your responses. If anyone is an Aussie baker please share your thoughts :)
Have you contacted the health (or whichever) department and asked for the specific applicable regulation? That's the only thing that really matters.
The rest of us are basically sharing our ignorance. :shrug:
cheers,
gary
I live in Queensland and don't run a commercial kitchen.
When I use a banneton I always knock it upside down into the sink first. Then I put it/them sraight into the oven after the bread has finished baking. After that I use a hard round brush and remove any left-over flour. Never had bugs, mould or any other problem.
Good luck. I know, those regulations can be a pain. I guess they do have their place, as long as their is common sense involved!
the next inspector you are blessed with may have a completely different view on this. For the most part the inspectors are reasonable but each one seems to have their pet peeves and since they are in the position of power it seems best to work with them rather than look at them as a problem.
Gerhard
Is this for HACCP certification or a different one?
I thought she had an inspection from what we call our County Health Inspector, any restaurant, food manufacturer, retailer etc. are subject to inspection by them. They mostly concentrate on hygiene aspect of your operation. In Canada we also have federal food inspectors and they are more into your process, allergens, traceability of ingredients, recall plans, and those types of things. The county inspectors come for surprise inspection while the federal folks make an appointment with you and discuss whatever their focus is and steer to become a better manufacturer. I think in the meat industry they also have a role in inspecting the quality of the meat but they don't seem to do that in our industry.
Gerhard
We call them Environmental Health Inspector
duplicate
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We have to do (have done) a Food Safety Supervisor Certificate and register with the Australian Food Authority and then get local council to check your premises and give you the ok. HACCP is part of the rest but particularly important for bigger and high risk products.
I've worked in stand-in shifts in bakeries with shocking amounts of mould in their bannetons. The inspectors forced them to revise their cleaning and storage but never said they should stop using bannetons. If you can't come to an amicable agreement - and this inspector sounds shockingly harsh - you need to find out more. Specifically the regulation that is relevant (and double-check its relevance with a third party expert before complying - a good source of free advice might be to find a university law lecturer who specialise in the Oz food industry). I guess some inspectors treat kitchen door bakeries with disdain and this might be the problem.
However, there's some great advice you've already been given on this thread: find out what other local bakeries do (there are loads of artisan setups in NSW); change your bannetons (I've used wood/paper pulp bans without liners and have had no problems - it all comes down to dusting properly for high hydrations); and using (well-dusted) liners. On that last point Alan has suggested a great solution. Freezing kills bacteria as effectively as boiling and is certainly a lot better than 60C water. It's a lot less fuss. And I'm going to switch to that.
Freezing does not kill bacteria all it does is stop their reproductive process while the temperature is freezing once warmed up the bacteria will carry on a usual. I think mold spore may actually not survive the freezing process. The other thing to remember is that bacteria will produce toxins and no amount of sterilization will get rid of the toxin, mold is generally not as bad but it can produce toxins as well. That may be why this inspector is concerned and who knows he may have just dealt with an issue that involved mold.
Gerhard
It's almost impossible to kill all the bacteria in any environment. Not even at Biohazard Level 4. But you're correct: those bacteria not killed by freezing will stop reproducing. And I doubt dangerous toxins like botulism are found in bannetons. Meat, yes. A bakery, no. So I suspect that's not really an issue. Unless, of course, you've got evidence otherwise.
yes freezing doesnt kill bacteria, but perhaps stops it growing, til you take them out again
Gerhard, he did mention the toxins as residual elements that cant be eliminated. After being baked@ 250C all bacteria from mix and bannetons etc are killed. Remaining are possible toxins (if present) and microbes from handling the finished product improperly. Caution is always a good thing and following guidelines too. We do our best, but I do think theres such a thing as being a bit unreasonable zillions of bakeries use ratan and cane bannetons.
The inspector didnt say "you cant use those things" (he wasnt even sure what they were!) he just said they werent regulation and that if we went into full production it might not be suitable as they couldnt be sanitized. But, food products in bain maries for example has to be kept above 60C to avoid festering and the reality is that mould cant grow without moisture. We dust well and they work like a charm I spent a good deal of money buying 80 of them and I might even get some more as demand is growing :) Freezing for me is not practical as I dont have the space.
Thanks again for you input, I'll keep researching!
Hi Amber, Derek here from Perth below is a link that has some useful info for contacts and some good pictures toward the end
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.agrifoodskills.net.au/resource/resmgr/fellowship_reports/iss_fel_report_pinnuck_low_r.pdf
I did do a longer reply but lost it while previewing so a bit shorter this time around.
Can you get the inspector to be explicit with "not regulation", the fact that he may not have ever seen one before doesn't really matter, we even used terracotta plant pots at one place I worked at. any way there are some good pictures of wooden workbenches and lots of Bannetons in use in that link.
We look forward to hearing a positive outcome for you.
kind regards Derek
Thanks Derek :) we'll look into it further, and keep you posted when we figure it out.
KInd regards, Amber