Hard Rolls
I am new to this site so hello all. I'm a long time baker and now currently moving into baking in my somewhat new brick oven. I've had it for the last two summers but I've been primarily focused on producing quality pizzas. Now that i have achieved that, I would like to try and produce a quality "what I'll call" Ny/Nj style hard roll.
If anyone knows how to produce this style hard roll please let me know. There’s nowhere near me producing a good hard roll within 400 miles. The first stop I make when visiting family back home in NJ is to stop at the Manville Bakery and pick up a dozen rolls. My Grand Father and Uncle owned a deli nearby when I was a kid and served sandwiches built to order on them and they were amazing!
The type of roll I'm talking about has a thin, hard exterior with an amazingly light inside and a little chew to it. The only down side to these rolls is, they're only really at their best the same day, the next day they are still good but become more like what you'd buy in NW PA.....
If someone could chime in with a technique and recipe it would be greatly appreciated.
Used this last Christmas, turned out great.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2011/03/08/they-once-were-lost-but-now-theyre-found-crusty-hard-rolls/
But I have family from the Scranton area on Pennsylvania who rave about the hard rolls they used to get that they can't find anymore. They said that recipe above came close, but not quite. looking forward to hearing if anyone else has a better recipe.
Thanks, the Description seem close to what I'm looking for. I will have to give it a try. The other reply below, recipe uses Italian 00 flour which may hold the key. I'll have to try both.
thanks,
Chris
German type of rolls to me, like these? http://hanseata.blogspot.com/2010/06/weizenbroetchen-german-rolls.html
Happy Baking,
Karin
Karin,
I believe that maybe the answer, the description sounds exactly like what I'm talking about. What's funny is when I read the article you sent to my wife she said " don't you remember how good the breads were when we were in Germany"? The light bulb went on, ever piece of bread we had there was head and shoulder better than anything made where we live.
I already have the 00 flour from Italy from making pizza with it so perfect! Have you ever made this recipe?
thanks,
chris
Yes, I wrote this post, it's my blog. I made them quite often, they are really nice.
Karin
Karin,
I really appreciate your taking the time to help out, I didn’t realize when reading the blog that it was yours, you are multitalented.
Because I will be baking your roll recipe in my wood fired brick oven which negates the ability to adjust temperatures, do you have any suggestions on the portion of the recipe that recommends “Leave rolls in switched off oven for 10 minutes more (leave door a crack open)"? I'm not sure how important that step is to the final outcome but maybe i could take the removable door off to allow cool air to enter the oven?
My wife and I spent two week driving ourselves around Germany and loved every minute of it. It’s a very beautiful country filled with very hospitable, friendly people. We spent the majority of our time south of Frankfurt in Bavaria region spending time in small towns and staying at gasthauses and only spent one night in the city at a hotel.
Thanks again,
Chris
Chris, if you use a wood fired oven you most likely don't need that step. This is a tweak for regular oven baking, to dry the rolls a bit, so that trapped moisture within them doesn't soften the crust after they are removed from the oven.
I'm glad you like traveling in Germany, and staying in small inns is much nicer than big, anonymous hotels. We always look for Romantic Hotels or Chateau & Relais ones. Next time you go there, try staying in a castle or fortress, the prices are often very reasonable, and you can't beat the ambiance!
Good luck with the rolls, and, please let me know how they turn out (I would love to have a wood fired oven!) Perhaps you might like my Bauernbrötchen with Old Dough, too, they are hearty and crusty, and utilize a piece of old dough from a previous bake: http://hanseata.blogspot.com/2013/06/bauernbrotchen-rustic-rolls-with-old.html
Karin
All you need to do is crack the whip on your husband and get him started. :-) I never had laid hand to a trowel before this wood oven project and I did it all myself. Here is the link to my build photo's https://www.flickr.com/photos/hodgey1s_photos/sets/72157646087819291/ If I can be of any assistance let me know.
Chris
I'll let him know what other husbands do - maybe he gets the hint ;)
Karin
Hi Karin
The Italian flour I have on hand is Caputo Brand Tipo "00" Chefs flour in a red 1kg bag. When I go to their web site it shows the protein content "if I read their sheet correctly" at 13.5%. I initially purchased it to make pizza Dough, Is that the wrong tipo 00 for this recipe? I understand from a little research that the Italian tipo 00 flours can have protein content that range from 6 to 13%. When you have a chance let me know your thoughts.
thanks,
chris
I see you have child labor working with you so it was not all by yours self. Man, that is a beautiful oven you built!
David, Thanks for the kind comments, we are very happy how its turned out. P.S. Children work for pizza :-) Chris
I made the recipe Karin so graciously shared this Sunday. The results were very good and everyone enjoyed them. The only but is, they did not turn out like roll I am trying to duplicate. I will try this recipe again this coming weekend using a lower protein Tipo 00 or unbleached pastry flour. The problem may have been the Tipo 00 I had was 13.5% protein, but still turned out a very good product.
This is a formula that I grew-up with in Florida:
Hard Rolls
(about 36 oz.)
Bakers %
21 oz. High Gluten Flour 100.00
12 oz. Water 58.00
1 Tbs. Yeast 2.25
1 tsp. Salt 1.00
1/2 oz. Diastatic Malt 1.50
1/2 oz. Sugar 1.50
1 oz. Shortening 3.00
1 oz. Egg White 3.00
Poppy Seeds, for garnish -----
174.25
In the bowl of a stand mixer with the paddle, combine the Yeast and Water. Stir at low
speed until the mixture becomes foamy, about 2 minutes. Add the remaining ingredients and mix at low speed until the dough begins to pull away from the sides of the bowl. Install the dough hook and knead at medium speed to form a fairly stiff, smooth dough, about 8-10 minutes. Cover and allow to ferment for 2 hours, folding at 1 hour, 90 minutes, and at 2 hours. Cover and refrigerate for 2 hours. Punch down and refrigerate overnight. Allow dough to come to room temperature, about 30 minutes. Scale 3-1/4 ounce and
ball. Bench rest, covered, for 30 minutes. Stamp with Kaiser stamp or “clop”. Proof
upside down on lightly-oiled parchment until at least tripled in size. Preheat oven to
450°F. Gently turn rolls right side up; wash with water, and sprinkle with Poppy seeds.
Bake with heavy steam for 5 minutes. Reduce temperature to 400°F and bake until
golden brown, about 15 minutes.
I know this is an old post but I thought I would add my latest roll adventure hoping it will still help someone out there. I NEVER join forums. I am a displaced NYer, been in NH for 39 years (Lord, where did the time go?) and the greatest trauma of the move was pizza and hard rolls - sigh.
I am baking more bread in my now older years and I have to tell you I was very excited about the following experience. I think it still may need a little tweaking but of all the things I served at a gourmet meal with lobster timbales as the main course, these rolls were the most exciting for me. I broke one open and exclaimed, "They look right!" They were airy inside (I think more so than Breadman 101's photo) with a thin crispy crust. The crust could have been a little flakier but I was in hard roll heaven.
I will give the recipe and the techniques I used and then at the end tell you what I might change next time. I live in SW NH at an altitude of about 1000ft. It is a hot summer but we have central air. I used a regular residental electric oven on the convection setting - things that can make a difference.
My NY Style Hard Rolls
600g AP flour (I use King Arthur's) - 21.5oz or a bit more than 4C
14g sugar - 1/2oz or 1TB
7g dark brown sugar - 1/4oz or 1/2TB
7g salt - 1/4oz or 1/2TB
7g dry yeast - 1/4oz or 2tsp
21g olive oil (not evoo) - 3/4oz or 2TB + 2tsp
42g egg white - 1.5oz or from 1 large egg
300g very warm water - 10.5oz or 1 3/8C (approximately 62% hydration)
cornmeal and poppy seeds
Mix dry ingredients in a large bowl. Mix wet ingredients then add to dry. Mix into a dough. - Mine was slightly sticky and not overly firm. - Turn out on very lightly floured surface and knead just to remove flour lumps. Return to bowl, cover with plastic wrap and let rise in oven with the light on for 45 min. (I used the stretch and fold method for the very 1st time and couldn't believe how easy it was. See the tutorial mentioned on this forum.) Scrape out onto floured surface, gently stretch to about 1/3 of original height, fold in thirds lenghtwise then again crosswise. Place back in bowl, cover and but back in oven for 45 min. Repeat this once more (total of 135 min of rising).
Turn out, stretch and let rest 5 min. My dough weighed 36oz. I cut it into 9 - 4oz pieces. (Yes, I did weigh them. I thought the finished size was perfect.) Roll each into about a 1 inch thick rope then "tie" in a double twist knot by starting about 1/3 of the way from one end. Take the longer end and loop through the center twice. Tuck one end under to the center and the other end over the top to the center. Press to seal.
Grease your baking pan and lightly dust with cornmeal. Place poppy seeds in a shallow bowl. Spray top of rolls with water then dip wet side in seeds. (Makes a pretty thick coating of seeds.) Place on baking sheet seed side up 2-3 inches apart. Cover lightly with plastic and put back in the oven to rise for about 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 hours. Remove and preheat the oven to 450 F(425 for convection) with a pan of water on the bottom. Put rolls in hot oven and spray oven with water to create some steam. Bake for 9 min, respraying oven after every 3 min. Reduce oven temp to 400 (375 convection) and bake for 10 min more or until center temp reaches 205 F. Cool on rack.
Things I might play with - The crust was a tad dark and maybe a tad crispy so I might back off on the water spray a little or reduce the cooking time or maybe even up the hydrations a little.
I think they needed more salt and I might use butter instead of oil next time to give them a little flavor boost. Don't get me wrong, I was very happy with them just they way they were but I am a bit of a perfectionist.
The next day they were pretty good (after being stored in a zip lock bag). I put one in the toaster oven set it at 300 and took the roll out as soon as the oven was preheated then just let it cool. They were however pretty dry the 2nd day. Haven't tried freezing them yet but nothing is a good as fresh.
I hope my quest for NY hard rolls makes another NY/NJ er as happy as we are at my house. - by the way, when my brother visits from Long Island he brings bagels :o(
Sometimes I am thick as a brick. In 2014 I started this thread in hopes of figuring out how to make the amazing NY Hard Roll. Contained in this thread I believe holds the answer. Since my memory is not as good as it used to be, I am uncertain of what occurred that made me drop the ball and not grab hold of the advice given here by @breadman1015 in this thread. What he shared “I think” is the key basis of the Hard roll, at very least a great starting point. So seven years have passed and last week I glanced at the formula suggested by Breadman and it came to me that I hadn't given the recipe he suggested a try. With Easter a day away I went to making the recipe. I followed it as close as possible, though I do have a couple of questions on yeast type and water & finish dough temp. The only deviation was, I needed to punch the dough down twice because of timing issues. The result I had were as close to a Hard Roll I have had since being back home in NJ. The crust was a beautiful egg shell consistency "thin & crisp" and the inside soft and tender. Below are photos of the rolls, that do not do them justice. When I pulled them out of the oven and placed on a cooling rack, the noise of the crust cracking as they cooled was amazing. I can’t wait for another go at these rolls. Here is his recipe that he so kindly shared: NY Hard Rolls
This is a formula that I grew-up with in Florida:
Hard Rolls
(about 36 oz.)
Bakers %
21 oz. High Gluten Flour 100.00
12 oz. Water 58.00
1 Tbs. Yeast 2.25
1 tsp. Salt 1.00
1/2 oz. Diastatic Malt 1.50
1/2 oz. Sugar 1.50
1 oz. Shortening 3.00
1 oz. Egg White 3.00
Poppy Seeds, for garnish -----
174.25
In the bowl of a stand mixer with the paddle, combine the Yeast and Water. Stir at low
speed until the mixture becomes foamy, about 2 minutes. Add the remaining ingredients and mix at low speed until the dough begins to pull away from the sides of the bowl. Install the dough hook and knead at medium speed to form a fairly stiff, smooth dough, about 8-10 minutes. Cover and allow to ferment for 2 hours, folding at 1 hour, 90 minutes, and at 2 hours. Cover and refrigerate for 2 hours. Punch down and refrigerate overnight. Allow dough to come to room temperature, about 30 minutes. Scale 3-1/4 ounce and
ball. Bench rest, covered, for 30 minutes. Stamp with Kaiser stamp or “clop”. Proof
upside down on lightly-oiled parchment until at least tripled in size. Preheat oven to
450°F. Gently turn rolls right side up; wash with water, and sprinkle with Poppy seeds.
Bake with heavy steam for 5 minutes. Reduce temperature to 400°F and bake until
golden brown, about 15 minutes.