No Knead Bread-Lahey's version vs Artisan bread in 5mins a day
I've been baking the no knead bread for about 3 yrs now from the original recipe of Jim Lahey. I've had real good luck with this recipe and used it for Ciabatta, Focaccia and pizza dough. I also have Jeff Hertzberg and Zoe Francois's book Artisan Bread in 5 min a Day. I never tried their method till yesterday. I now know why. Although you have enough dough for 2-4 loaves of bread in the fridge, that particular dough is only good for being the master recipe or basic. I took out a portion of the dough to make olive bread but found I had to incorporate the olives, rosemary and oil in the cold dough. The dough never rose like Lahey's dough so it was kind of dense maybe from being cold. Lahey's dough method is made for a peticular recipe. I believe I prefer making no knead dough to suit a recipe as in the basic no knead method. I have made Lahey's dough and could not bake it the next day, put it in the fridge and baked it 2 days later with no problem.
Another thought is the Artisan method, you cut off a piece "the size of a grapefruit". To me this is not to exact and with Lahey's method, you know 3 cups flour, 1.5 c water etc goes in a 5 qt dutch oven for X amount of time. This is a science. The sizing "grapefruit" can vary so therefore I would imagine baking times would change.
I would like to get your opinions and maybe I can elaborate more as to my findings.
The biggest difference between the Lahey method and Hertzberg one is the amount of yeast and the fermentation time. Leahy uses only a 1/4 teaspoon of yeast for 3 cups of all purpose flour, whereas Hertzburg uses 1.5 tablespoons of yeast per 6.5 cups of flour. The Hertzburg recipe is ready for baking in as little as 2 hours while Leahy's needs at least 12 hours, preferably about 18. Leahy's long slow fermentation period gives the bread much better flavor, in my opinion. I find putting it in the refrigerator overnight improves it even more.
I find Leahy's bread a little watery tasting to me so I cut back the water to 12 oz. I also use a combination of all purpose flour, bread flour and semolina. I don't preheat my dutch oven. I just place the dough on parchment paper and put it in a cold cast iron skillet (covered). This goes into a 450 degree oven with a baking stone that's been preheated for 30 minutes. I take the lid off and bake an additional 10 minutes.
I'm the only bread eater in the house so I bake half loaves. I cut the dough in two and weigh it so that each half weighs the same. If I bake a whole loaf I add a little time, but not much. I can tell when it's done by the smell. Internal temperature should be 205-210 F.
My no knead bread recipe is here. Step-by-step instructions with photos are here
I do have Lahey's book also, but not handy. I presume this is a mix of flours and maybe gluten added? Very nice!
I was making Lahey's method quite a while before purchasing his bread book. I mainly purchased the book as a thank you for this method when presented to Bittman in 2006 that started a bread revolution.
Rob
Thanks. Funny, I did the same thing. I started with Bitman when it first appeared in The Times and only recently purchased Jim Lahey's book, more as a tribute. This rye is a variation on Bitman subtituting rye flour for 25% of the all purpose.
Mike
...for the baking vessel?
So just use the NYTimes Lahey version and substitute 25% rye?
How'd you get the crust to be so shiny? Cornstarch wash after bake?
Really gorgeous loaves for rye bread with unusually open crumb.
Nice job!
3 1/2 c. AP 460g
1/2 c. Rye 61g
1 1/2 c. Water 300g
1/2 c. Bass Ale 122g
2. tps. Salt
1/2 tsp. Yeast
2 Tbs. Caraway seeds
1 Egg white (for wash)Incorporate dry Ingredients then wet. Mix thoroughly. Let forment 18 - 24 hours. Stretch and fold several times. Let rest for 15 mins.Shape and let rise for 1 hour.
BAKEPre-heat oven and dutch oven to 500
10 mins. @ 435 covered
35 mins. @ 435 uncovered Brush with diluted egg wash immediately after baking.N.B. I use a 4 qt. oval cast iron dutch oven and I slash the loaves at the 10 minute mark when they are uncovered.Thanks for the No Knead Rye Recipe. Those really are gorgeous loaves. I think they might convince me to buy that 3.5 qt enameled cast iron pot I've had my eye on. I'm "allergic" to the ones that require upkeep. :)
I'd tried a few of Lahey's no-knead loaves when I first started out. They looked great (the most open crumbs I've ever achieved), but they didn't taste great. They actually had no taste. Very bland. I'd since given up on his no-knead recipe, but maybe it's time to revisit now that I have some experience under my belt.
The rye listed in the recipe isn't at 25%, it's 12.5%. So he scores the loaf after it is uncovered. Interesting. Seems to still be expanding nicely. Nice looking breads.
You know thomaschacon, I don't do any maintenance at all to my Lodge Combo Cooker. I seasoned it the first day and haven't done anything more to it as I only use it to bake in.
Eric
Eric, you're right. When I first made this rye I used 25% rye and it was a little too dense so I cut it in half. I keep the inside of my dutch ovens fairly clean and rust free but the outside is pretty nasty to look at.
I found this resource recently and will try to resurrect them from "rust and smelly" death one more time.
http://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/perfect-popovers-and-how-to-clean-reseason-cast-iron/
This will be probably the 5th time that I try it, but this method seems to have a good way (I'm going to try the electrolysis) to really clean it first, giving me a blank slate from which to redo.
I also need to dislodge the way I think about it, which is essentially, "You get what you pay for." I paid only about $35 and $40 for the two I own, but the time and effort I've put into seasoning and trying to maintain them means they really cost 3x more than what I paid for my All-Clad.
Thomasschacon: I started out using a 5.5 qt enamel coated cast iron pot over 3 yrs ago but decided to switch to a Lodge 5.5 qt plain preseasoned cast iron pot. I would imagine over time the high heat might ruin the enamel and I use this pot for soups. The Lodge preseasoned I happened to get at Costco for $20 and as said, it's preseasoned already. I just coated it or spray oil once in a while but I don't have issues with sticking as others have had.
Rob
Gah! Didn't want to hear that. The one I'm looking at (Le Creuset) runs $250 for a 3.5 quart.
I'll check the manufacture tolerances before buying, so thanks for letting me know that the enamel could be vunerable to repeated high-heat baking.
As for my two Lodge's, I just don't know. I followed a number of procedures (to the letter!) to season them, but they always revert to a rusty, smelly mess. I've tried the oven-cleaning cycle. I've tried the bacon grease. I've even tried the very hot campfire coals with lard technique. I don't wash them with water or soap, but they always revert.
I sometimes wonder if I bought manufacturer rejects. They were from a rather shady restaurant supply store in Seattle. They didn't come with warranty card, box, etc.., but they were new and unseasoned.
I bought four of these pots. The size and shape is perfect and the price is right but they are coated with some very nasty wax which needs to be cleaned off the first time you use them. A little spritz of oil once in a while keeps them in good shape. I have never had a sticking problem.
Cajun Cookware Pots 4 Quart Cast Iron Casserole Pot : Iron Pots Depot
Mukoseev, thanks for the link. I have a cast iron obsession and have a lot of pieces, but always have room for one more....lol. I have an oval and a long clay pot (la cloche or something) but I think my bread comes out better in cast iron. I also tried pizza/bread stones and found my pizza comes out just as good on my Lodge preseasoned cast iron pizza pan.
Rob
Amazon has these pots also, but they come seasoned or unseasoned on Amazon. You bought 4 of these, are they seasoned or not? You are right, they do come with a coating of some kind that has to be cleaned off as I read once. Not sure if this coating is on preseasoned ones as Lodge. Most of my cast iron is Lodge.
Rob
The pre-seasoned Lodge pots do not need to be cleaned off before use but these Cajun pots come coated with something like cosmalene that imported cars are coated with. If you don't clean it off you'll have some serious black smoke pour out of your oven.
The pre-seasoned Lodge pots do not need to be cleaned off before use but these Cajun pots come coated with something like cosmalene that imported cars are coated with. If you don't clean it off you'll have some serious black smoke pour out of your oven.
Well I mentioned previously that I'm trying Artisan Bread in 5 mins a Day method and I have a second batch in the fridge now. This batch of dough I decided to compromise and it's the basic recipe with 2 tbsp of olive oil and 1 tbsp of sugar added. I now cut a piece off, not the size of a grapefruit, or melon (lol), but weigh it on my scale at 1 lb. This is enough to make 1 pan pizza. The dough is somewhat sticky, being a wet dough, but I did roll it out and topped it ok. It made a thin crust and I must say, it was very good. The crust did rise in the oven to make a nice, tasty crust.
This method is good for the convenience of having dough on hand but I make onion rolls (from here), dinner rolls etc so I won't be able to use this method unless there's a way to incorporate other ingredients (egg, sugar, butter) into the basic no knead dough.
Rob
If you season with a liquid oil or anything that will turn rancid eventually, it will start to smell funky when the oil gets a few Months old.
The best most reliable way I know of to season any cast iron pot is to use Crisco solid shortening. Get the pan clean but you shouldn't need to run it through the clean cycle or wire brush it unless it's rusty. If you do have a pan that is rusty, wire brush or get a brush that fits on a drill and clean it up. Immediately warm the pan and apply the Crisco with a paper towel so the rust doesn't get a hold.
Heat the oven to 400F and put a sheet of foil on a shelf below the rack where you will place the pan in, UPSIDE DOWN. You don't want a lot of Crisco on the pan surfaces, just coat the surface lightly. Leave the pan in for 1.5 -2 hours. I do the inside and outside at the same time. Be sure to turn the pan over so the oil will drain out onto the foil. Just one application if you will only be baking bread. After 2 applications I can cook sunny side eggs on the nearly non stick surface, no problem.
Eric
After years and years of owning cast iron-I finally learned a great way to season them that really works. Jut try it. It is more time consuming but actually "seasons" the pan in a way that is really closer to non-stick and doesn't wash off so easily. I know there are lots of methods out there -just like there are for maintaining a starter :) . The upside down method with vegetable shortening that is described works better as maintenance than as the initial seasoning on a dry pan. If you use it as an initial coating, it can tend to come off as you use/wash the pan. This process is how to actually get the initial seasoning in place.
1. Start with a clean pan-I've never had to deal with much except rust so I have no advice on getting centuries of textured stuff off. I have heard some people actually use a blow torch,scrapers,chisel,electrolysis,acid or even throw it in the campfire til it is almost red hot.However you can safely do it-start with a clean pan.
2. Remove rust-Use steel wool for surface rust and a grinder( or any tool necessary) to remove any deep rust. I've never had one that bad but there are some and it takes reall dedication to start with one of those!
3. Wash and dry thoroughly (use some heat) and IMMEDIATELY coat with melted LARD. It only takes about 1/2 teaspoon! I use a brush to get it all over-top and bottom. A chip brush from the hardware store works well ( the natural bristle kind-not plastic!). Keep it on a plate with about a tablespoon of lard-thats all it takes for the whole process. Most of it gets wiped away.
4. Wipe the whole thing down with a paper towel so there is a very thin layer of lard only.
5. Put the pan in a 300-350 F oven and leave there until the lard coating gets dry shiney.You DO NOT want to get it smoking hot or setting off the smoke detector.You don't want to burn it on-you want to brown it on. If it does get too hot,take it out of the oven, set it outside to cool it down,air out the house and turn the oven temp down before returning it to the oven! Did I mention this will take most of the day? I've taken to doing it when I have a bread bake planned-great heat sink in the bottom of the oven.
5. When the coating is to the dry shiny stage (you touch it quickly and no grease transfers to your finger and it feels slightly tacky).The coating will actually "dry" and get shiney.
6. Add another thin layer of lard and wipe off again. Continue this untill the pan is black/dark and shiny. Did I mention it takes a while? I had one pan that took several days but it was down to bare,gray,rusty iron.
It is a long process but it is the process that has been the most successful for me. I got the process from an even older person than myself-it has never failed. ALways easier to take advantage of someone else's wisdom! Cast iron makes a great baking vessel-everything tastes so much better in it.
Have delicious fun!
Did I mention it is time consuming but worth it ? :)
Is there ever a point where grease does not transfer?
That's really my biggest issue. No matter what I've tried, it's still grimy and gunky.
You touch it just a single time and you have to wash your hands three times just to get the icky off.
I put a tablespoon of Canola oil (which has a high smoking point) in the bottom of my cast iron skillet, wiped it around with a paper towel and then baked the bread on parchment paper in the skillet at 450 F.
At first the skillet was sticky, but after several bakings the oil carbonized. It started in the center of the pan and worked its way out to the rim a little more with each new loaf.
Now the entire pan is black, smooth, and not sticky.
is what I mostly use. I sometimes get a little rust here and there after storing my cast iron for a while as I have a lot. I've read that for minor rust, rubbing it with salt and oil works, and it did for me. The salt is abrasive and of course the oil seasons it. When done, coat the pot with crisco or vegetable oil and heat till it smokes. When I use my oven for something else, I sometimes leave one of my cast iron pots in so it's seasoned for the next time.
Rob
If seasoned correctly it does not transfer and if it is dirty-wash it! I wash my iron frying pans if something does stick or if I make something highly seasoned (like Indian curry or such).That is blasphemy in the iron pot world but I'm more realistic than that. I don't have a campfire or fireplace to burn it off. Mostly I just need to use a nylon scraper and hot water. Then I make sure it dries quickly and it's good to go.
I clean mine with a wire brush and hot water (no detergent). Then dry it with a paper towel.
The best cast iron seasoning technique I have ever used. http://www.socaldos.org/high_temp_seasoning.htm After the third time, the finish is black, hard and completely non stick. You can proceed to cook anything in it. The other methods I have tried at lower temperatures come out brown and tacky and you have to baby the pan.
Here is an copy and paste of an article on;
Reconditioning Cast Iron Cookware
CAUTION: Wear rubber gloves and eye protection while doing this!!
Begin by spraying the pan with oven cleaner and putting it in a plastic bag for a couple of days. The bag keeps the oven cleaner from drying out so it will continue to work. After a couple of days, remove it from the bag and scrub it in a solution of dish soap/water. I use a brass brush purchased at a super market, or my favorite, a brass brush I purchased at Rite Aid Pharmacy in their automotive counter. This brush is marketed for cleaning white wall tires. It is just the right size for doing pans. If all the burned on grease doesn't come off, repeat the process, concentrating the cleaner to the areas not cleaned.
For bulk cleaning, you can prepare a soak of one and a half gallons of water to one 18 ounce can of lye in a plastic container. Lye like oven cleaner is very caustic and will burn you. Always wear rubber gloves. Mix enough in the plastic container to cover the items to be cleaned. Leave the pieces in the soak for about five days. Then scrub the piece. You can use the lye mixture several times. Do not use oven cleaner or lye on aluminum! It will eat the aluminum! Lye and oven cleaner will also eat the finish off wood handles and japanned pieces, and will dull porcelain finishes.
To remove rust, buff the pan with a fine wire wheel in an electric drill. Crusted rust can be dissolved by soaking the piece in a 50%solution of white vinegar and water for a few hours. Don't leave it more than overnight without checking it. This solution will eventually eat the iron! It is now important to neutralize and stop the action of the vinegar. To neutralize the acid action of the vinegar again apply the oven cleaner and let the piece soak over night. You can also soak the piece over night in an alkaline solution such as washing soda which is available in the cleaning dept of most supermarkets and also some hardware stores. The washing soda neutralizes the vinegar so it will not continue to attack the iron. Then scrub the piece in dish detergent and hot water before seasoning.
One of the articles a while back in cooks illustrated did some legwork on seasoning the old fashioned way and a new way...using flax seed oil...so i tried this on one of my families old (badly in need of a re-do) CI skillet...flax seed oil is a bit pricey but i little goes a long way...this is the food grade (not in the pill) and i found it in the refridgerated natural food section at Martin's (Giant in some places) but i have seen it in other stores too. You have to use a freshly cleaned (all the other junk is stripped away) so i used oven cleaner a couple of times (wood stove wasn't going to burn it off)...the way it goes...on a cleanly stripped skillet/CI ??? preheat oven to 250 and let the skillet heat for about 15 minutes...pull it out and coat it with the flax seed oil ( i turned it upside down so excess would run off...but my mistake here was overcoating)...put on a very thin coat..do NOT put a ton of oil on it...turn oven up to 500F(that is as high as i went..it said as high as your oven would go, at least 450) and bake for one hour..cut oven off and let it cool completely, repeating the oiling and heating process 4-5 times or until a black finish forms...and i will tell you..it is superior to crisco (and i was a big crisco fan and didn't believe this trick). My one problem is the kitchen stunk after the first heating because i think i burned off whatever was in the bottom of the onion or the excess oil dripped on the burners. CI even said they ran theirs through a dishwasher (aycarumba!!! mortal sin!!) but i was just happy with the process...a small bottle...6 oz? was about 11 bucks but with that finish it was worth the time and effort (might be better to do on a grill outside???)
Got some good tips on seasoning CI, tho ehanner's method is the one I've always used for maintaining my CI cookware (or just rendering some lard, but that's another topic).
What brands of CI (old or new) do you afficionados especially like? Inquiring minds + the idly curious are eager to know. :)
Several camp oven Lodges of different sizes, Camp Chef Cast Iron Ultimate Turkey Roaster, 15" MACA and some vintage nameless stuff.
"I prefer Artisan for convenience: I can better schedule baking times if the dough is already in the fridge."
You can put the Leahy version in the fridge too. It improves the flavor all the more.
I'm the only bread eater in the house, so I only bake half loaves of the Leahy recipe and put the other in the fridge until I'm ready to bake again. There's no reason why you couldn't make a double or triple batch of the Leahy recipe to keep in the fridge.
We don't eat a lot of loaves of bread but I make more rolls which go faster. I prefer baking the full portion of dough and freezing the baked breads. So if I were making a boule, after baking I cut it in half, wrap it and into the freezer. Same with rolls, I make the full batch, freeze what I don't eat and take them out as I need them. I do this for onion rolls, cinnamon rolls, ciabatta rolls and I also cut up my Focaccia in squares and freeze, so I always have bread on hand in the freezer.
I was unable to make Lahey's version once and did refigerate it for a couple of days and it seemed to work.I am experimenting with Artisan Bread in 5 and made Foccacia last week. It came out very good and still had dough left over for a pizza. I love homemade pizza and try to make it once a week. Using the wetter doughs I find it easier to make pan pizza. I tried using a peel for no knead pizza but it got to messy........LOL.
Rob
Wet dough makes for a delicious bubbly pizza crust. When it comes to pizza dough--the wetter the better!
I put the pizza dough on parchment paper. Then I oil may hands so the dough doesn't sitck to them. Then I press it into a thin round. The dough sticks to the parchment paper and doesn't spring back. After adding the topping, I slide the dough and parchment paper on to a preheated baking stone, and bake it for eight minutes @ 500 degrees F. Perfect every time! I'm sure it would work for Foccacia too.
I've been meaning to try wet dough on parchment for pizza. I do my long loaf bread , Lehey method, to get the dough from the proofing basket to the long clay pot in the oven. Easier to handle just dropping it in the hot clay pot with the parchment. I'm glad to see from being on here, that others are learning and experimenting. I picked up this no knead method by accident on a general forum and took off with it. I don''t think I would have gotten into bread baking the way I did if it weren't for this method.
Rob
I've made a double batch of Lehey's method that I used right away, but I did it in separate bowls. I wanted some input on this. If I made a double batch in 1 bowl with 6 cups of flour, how much yeast would be required, 1/2 tsp? I wasn't sure if the proportions worked that way with so little yeast that's why I made a double batch in separate bowls for 2 loaves of bread. Any feedback?
Rob
I'm not sure how it scales up and yeast multiplies. You want a long, slow ferment, so I would go any more than 1/2 teaspoon.
Bruce,
I retard it after the long bulk fermentation. I let the Leahy recipe rise on the counter overnight, I knock it down, cover it with oiled plastic wrap and stick it in the fridge where it will rise again. I usually let it stay in the fridge overnight. Then I divide it into two and store in zip-lock bags. I try to time it to always have a bag of dough ready to go. The night before I'm going to us my last zip-lock bag of dough, I start a new batch of bread. That way there is always some in the pipeline. I don't form it into loaves. I let it warm for an hour in the zip-lock and just plop it onto a piece of parchment paper. This produces an irregular shaped, flat loaf as you can see in Post #2 above, which includes a link to step-by-step instructions with photos.
Hope this helps.
Tom
I should add, you can bake it without time in the fridge, right after it has sat on the counter overnight.
You will still get a tastey loaf of bread.
That's what I like about this recipe, it's very flexible, and forgiving.
I modify the recipe by using a combination of all-purpose flour, bread flour, and semolina. Also, I cut the water back to 10 oz.
made from Artisan Bread in 5, was disappointing for me tonight. I've tried several times to use the no knead, wet dough for pizza and it was hard to work with and did not rise ok. Last week I made pizza dough by hand, regular recipe, kneaded and it was so nice to work with.I probably added to much flour so I can handle it, but it kept sticking and I work with wet doughs a lot.
Last weeks recipe was 1c water, 3 c flour, 2 tbsp oil, 1 tsp salt and sugar, and 2 tsp yeast. The standard routine and the crust was so good we couldn't stop eating it. I think after many tries, I'm giving up on no knead pizza and just use the method for bread.
Try Cheri's Favorite Pizza Dough recipe. It's really is the best ever. It uses a combination of bread flour and semolina. Her recipe calls for making it in a food provessor, but I've adapted it to a no-knead recipe. I mix the flours, sugar, salt and yeast in a bowl (I use instant yeast). Then I add the water and mix it just until all the flour is wet. It's not a serious workout. Let it rise until doubled. As the recipe says, storing it in the fridge improves the flavor, but it's not necessary. The dough is so wet that I have to press it out on parchment paper. This makes a nice crisp. bubbly crust, and the sugar makes it brown beautifully. I've also made it using just 1/4-teaspoon of instant yeast and letting it sit out on the counter overnight--like the Leahy recipe no-knead bread.
I took a look at the recipe. I'll have to try it. The Flour cups/ozs seems off. I would say 16ozs of flour is about 3 1/2 cups, not 2 3/4 cups.
You're right. 16 oz of bread flour is 3.57 US cups according to the Flour Amounts Conversion Calculator.
I've been making it with 2-3/4 cups. No wonder it comes out so wet. Recently I got a scale so I've been weighing everything. I remember having to add more water to get the dough wet enough.