Firm Sourdough Starter - Glezer recipe

Mmm, interesting.

I used firm starter before, but it's just a biga like the indirect method mentioned in The Artisan site. I did the long biga (12+ hours). 

Zolablue, that is the starter which I use too. It keeps very well in the fridge - for weeks and weeks if need be - and comes straight back to activity after two feedings. I've never bothered with waiting for it to quadruple - ~I hate wasting  loads of flour / starter, so when I want to bake, I take 30 grams starter (feeding the original with the proportions to make a stiff starter and putting back in the fridge) and add 40 grams flour 40 grams water, mix and leave 8 hours. Add 100 grams water, 100 grams flour, leave overnight. If it is bubbling well, it will raise the dough. Next morning add the remaining ingredients and that is the dough made - it has had it's two refreshments, but none at all goes to waste.To convert to a "batter" starter for some breads, I take 10 grams of this starter, mix it with 30 grams water, add 30 grams flour - and that is that. Leave it for about 8 hours and it should be a happy, active batter type starter.You've been making some stunning breads for a "newbie" - I think you have to find another way of describing yourself!!  You may not be an "old timer" in terms of months and years, but you've certainly become a most accomplished baker.
Andrew

the starter is kept as a firm starter in the fridge but is turned into a more liquid one to refresh and use. This is why I don't worry about quadrupling - it is fairly liquid at this stage and in a big mixing bowl so the other ingredients can be added to it - so absolutely no flour goes to waste. I reckon that, in the 19th century and earlier, flour was so precious (people used to go out gleaning for grain after the Harvest, it was so important ) so I don't think they could have followed a regime that included dumping loads of flour. But I keep it as a firm starter for exactly the reasons you mention - it keeps so very well. I don't think Glezer could have a left a liquid starter for 3 years!I do have other recipes I use where the starter is used as a stiff starter and whisked into the water before flour is added - I just find the method I tend to use simpler. If a recipe says (these are made up figures for illustrative uses only!) 30 grams stiff starter, 270 grams water, 400 grams flour, then I'd use the starter and add say, 50 grams water and 50 grams of the flour, mix, leave overnight and add the remaining flour and water the next day. It works for me - and that, I think, is what matters! 
Andrew

I thought I would add my 2 cents here.   I have been successfully baking sourdoughs sometimes with a firm starter and sometimes with a batter starter.  Just about all of my breads have yielded really nice results.  I have made Maggie Glezer's Thom Leonard country bread with the firm starter that is called for in the recipe, and just this weekend I tried it with my batter style starter.  I think it was the best result yet.  Now because of the number of variables involved, I really can't jump to conclusion that it was better because of the batter starter, but it did encourage me to continue using it.  I think that it is easier to maintain a batter style starter- you don't need to do any kneading, just a bit of stirring and you are done. And I do not waste much flour, usually feeding only 2 ounces of flour each time.

Actually, I may really owe my good results to mountaindog (on this site) who contributed her interpretation of the Thom Leonard boule.  Either her edition of the Artisan Baking book is different than mine, or she just added her take on the instructions.  In my book, there is no autolyse mentioned for that bread, but I followed mountaindog's instructions, and I think it was really worthwhile. She also offered that she used 45 grams (I believe) of a batter starter in place of the 30 grams of firm starter called for in the recipe. I will try to find her instructions on this web and add the link if I can figure out how!!

I referred to mountaindog's interpretation of the Thom Leonard boule in my last post- to get to it- here is the link:  mountaindog's description of the Thom Leonard recipe

Zolablue,

Thanks for striking up a great dicsussion topic! I have a newbie question regarding the firm starter as I have only made a few loves using my batter type thus far.

1. The firm starter that everyone is discussing seems to resemble just a ball of dough that you grew from a slightly acidified and liquid starter. When this is done, you should have a small ball of dough correct?

2. I understand the conversion of a batter to a firm. (I am doing this currently AND converting to back to whole wheat) My question is that all I did was take the remaining mother batter I had which was about 1/4c (I'll pick up a scale soon as I am ready!) and poured that into a ss bowl and added some wheat flour and made a ball. I put this into a quart mason jar (sanitized because I can) and loosely put the lid on this. Next morning (today) it was 3 times the size and was all bubbly. When I put this into the jar, it was a firm dough, but now its a stringy webby looking dough. I had to pull this out and when I fed it, all I did was add more flour. No water. Is this correct? Should I be tossing some of this out? I usually keep growing as my current recipes call for a few cups of starter in batter form, so I try ti grow up a bit as I bake every few days. 

3. Last question. When using a firm starter, do I just pull a piece off and toss it into a water and flour recipe? I never had to add water to my other recipes because the starter was high in liquid. If so how much starter dough per batch?

 thanks. I am out today looking for Glezer's book!

ZB - thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I will give the firm a try again and see if I can keep it strong. I think my earlier problem may have been a too young starter and possible over-feeding. Agree with Bill though on how easy it is to underfeed a wet starter, esp. as the weather gets warmer.

Bill - that's a nice piece of family history about your great-grandmother cooking on the ranch - she was probably feeding her starter frequently anyhow since she was using it twice a day between the pancakes and the bread, so maybe she didn't need the refrigeration after all?

mid May is the birthday of my firm (Glezer method) starter. Unfortunately - I can't remember how many years old it is - 2 or 3? I think 3. It steadily improved in performance (speed of rise) and flavour for about a year, but has seemed consistent since then. I feel compelled to keep two lots going in the fridge in case a disaster happens with one lot! I'd say it has survived like this in the fridge underfed, rather than overfed, but doesn't seem to mind at all. It revives when fed very happily.Happy birthday, starter!
Andrew

ZB, you might remember me saying that my starter doesn't quadruple but still makes a good loaf. Well - today, for some reason known only to itself, it had quadrupled within four hours of feeding and is going some still - up to about 6x the original volume and  rising!  Same flour, same water - amazing! I'm wondering now what it will do when I make dough with it.....! It is still at the firm stage - 20g starter, 30 g water and 50 g flour. 
Andrew

actually! I found this out as a result of an "experiment" (or it could be error!!). I'd scraped the fed / active starter out of a small bowl into another bigger bowl to make the dough. Then, instead of washing up the scraped - out bowl, I absent mindedly added 30 grams water and 50 grams flour - stirred it - realised what I'd done - and thought well, might as well cover it in plastic and see what happens. Lo and behold - a very active extra starter! So it went into the fridge and is still going (I like to have two or three in case of disaster....)I'm fascinated to read of your contact with Maggie Glezer.  Did you pick up many tips? And how many have you incorporated into your bread making?Andrew

ZB, Andrew, 

Whew, maybe it's a breakthrough. My converted Glezer firm starter just rose by a full 4x in about 7 hours, and then filled the container at about 5.5x after about 9 hours. I had to stir it down. So, is it working? Mebbe so, mebbe not. Because, I changed containers. The new one is wider. I wonder if it can climb the sides more easily with a wider container? Still, it seems to be going much faster the last couple of feedings. I have been letting it run almost 24 hours each time, as long as it was convenient. The last feeding was actually a higher ratio, too - 10:36:60 (10.6x), but it still rose by 4x in about 7 hours (temp was about 78F, but it never rose by more than 3.5x, let alone in 7 hours, at the same temp before). I guess the proof will be to see how it does in a "race" with my liquid starter, which is still raising a 10:45:90 (10.5x) feeding by double in about 4.75 hours at around 78F.

So, when I get a chance, I'll do equal flour multiple tests and see which starter is faster these days.

Bill

Hey firm starter comrades,

I recently purchased artisan baking and decided to build a starter as per maggies instructtions a few weeks ago. it had been very active and i'd gotten a few really tasty loaves out of it. I had been keeping it at room temp and refreshing it about every 12 hours, whenever it looked ready. This past week it's been ridiculously hot (95 in my kitchen all week) and it over ripened a few times aand its no longer sour but smells vaguely alcoholic and tastes a little sweet. Does anyone know how to rescue a starter in this state? Today i used a smaller portion of starter when i refreshed it, but i'm not sure that'll. any help would be appreciated.

thanks,

benji

Hi Zolablue,

I've just converted a portion of one of my starters (from Dan Lepards book - 80% hydration) to become a firmer starter according to the feeding directions from Maggie Glezer you mentioned here (10:30:50). I didn't find the room temperature mentioned anywhere above, and for the summer we have something like 27C at night and 30C during the day, so for now it is just plain hot (and very humid - about 75%...). I'm afraid that if I leave it for the extra 12 hours after it collapes then it might actually be too long, so what I'd like to know is what does your starter look like when those 12 hours are up? Has it risen again? Is it looser than when you started out? Different smell? Any other signs to know when it really should be feed again? Thanks for any advise.

L_M

Zolablue thanks for your explanations about what it looks like during the different stages. Somehow I still feel that the golden rule may different if the room temp is much warmer than yours - maybe it should quadruple faster than in 8 hours... so for a few days I'll continue to refesh a few hours after it collapes and I'll keep my eyes open for signs to learn it's behavior.

About those discards - go wild! I never throw any away - just save them in a container in the fridge and put a glob of it into anything that I bake. I can't say that it makes such a difference in the taste but at least it makes me feel better that I haven't thrown any away! Yeast bread, cakes, cookies, casseroles... anything...hmmm...just thought of meat loaf but haven't tried it yet.

I'll let you know how things go

L_M

like a stray dog you take in 'just for one night' I seem to have adopted a firm starter. After looking over this thread, I'm confused about when ideally it's ready to use. Mine quadruples in 6 1/2-7 hours, I let it ripen til it's nearly or actually collapsed, another couple hours or so, then I make my levain. Do I understand from these notes that it should be sitting another 10-12 hours after quadrupling, before using? Or is that just for refreshing?

I have been watching this thread for a few days and it makes me wonder if you aren't getting some of the benefits of the second stage of the Detmold-3 process. In the DM-3 which has been written about and popularised by Samartha here in the US, the second stage is very firm. He says that the slightly warmer (74-82 F) temp coupled with the 66% hydration encourages the growth of the LB's which helps the flavor or sour. I have also observed that the starter is very vigorous and when used with AP flours gives a great rise. As I understand it the yeast will live happily beside the LB's if encouraged to propagate. Perhaps it is the combination of the two types of bacteria growing that makes a firm starter so effective.

Samartha has a calculator that allows you to build up a certain amount of starter for any given size loaf and percentage of rye/wheat. I've found that it works equally well for wheat based flours while using the rye starter. I'm convinced that it's the hydration and 24 hours time that affects the growth of the LB's and not the temp. It's worth looking at just to understand how it works. http://samartha.net/SD/ 

Eric

Zolablue, this is all a mystery to me...I wish someone would invent some sort of special glasses for the home bakers (not a microscope) that when you wear them you can see what is actually going on inside of the starter - yeast would be one colour, and maybe another colour for each of the different bacteria... but in the meantime back to real life!

Alas, I am also guilty of always picking it up to check how it is rising and I was actually very surprised that it was so fragile (much more so than my other starters at 100% and 80% hydration) and it collaped before I thought it had finished rising. And, surprisingly enough it didn't even rise again. I think I'll stick with the 10 gr at feeding time for the next few days simply because I want to keep it constant so I can monitor any changes, but after that if I'm not happy with the results I'll go to the 15 gr like you suggested. So far it hasn't even quadrupled yet, so it looks like I still have some waiting to do.

For it's last feeding I had left it for 12 hours on the counter after it collapsed (when I picked it up) and then I stashed it in the fridge for another 7 hours, so maybe that was a bit too extreme / maybe not ... by feeding time it did smell alot like yeasty beer and the texture was still quite stiff, so I hope it's ok. They are promising a heat wave for the next few days so I'm going to keep an eye on things that I don't overdo the counter time.

As before, my goal is to make a very mild loaf and so far with my other starters no matter what I've tried, the flavour of the bread is always very intense.  Maybe this is a winner! Thanks again.

L_M

Zolablue, I will certainly hang in there if mine will also be fast rising and sweet smelling like yours. My starters are all slow and my bread always takes longer than the recipe states it should - just the opposite from yours. I have a feeling that's why the flavour is always so intense. So far today I've managed to keep my hands off, and it has now reached a bit more than triple in 9 hours, and it looks like it is still on the rise, but I'm going to sleep so I won't really know what happens during the night.

 Eric thanks for posting that link and now that you have mentioned this info, I'm very interested to see what flavour mine will produce.

Hopefully only a few more days before it'll be strong enough to bake with.

L_M

Things are looking good - starter is rising faster by now, and isn't so fragile anymore.

 Eric you may be right about the differences in flour, but I really don't have too much choice around here. Both AP and bread flour have 11% protein and there is not very much info on the flour bag itself, but I have made sourdough breads before and the dough does hold out well. I think what happened was the first and second feedings were according to the instructions but I forgot to take into account that my starter was looser to begin wiith and therefore it didn't really end up at 60% hydration. When it had risen to just over triple it collapsed when I moved it, so it does sound reasonable to me that a looser starter just wasn't as sturdy.

So far I've had the best luck as far as taste and having the dough rise within with the suggested time in the recipe, using a very small amount of starter - the recipe I've used is the one Sourdough-guy posted here and it sounds like the same idea as you mentioned Eric - very easy as well!

L_M

L_M, my starter ( now a few years old) was very slow to begin with - it didn't quadruple as I got tired of waiting and used it after about 10 hours.The  dough took ages to rise ( up to 18 hours) but the resultant loaves were excellent with a full, almost lemony flavour. Over the course of the first year the starter became more and more vigorous and quick, but the flavour became less noticeably sour, unless I purposely retarded the dough rising by putting it in the fridge. However, I really don't mind the less sour flavours I am now getting - it is bread that suits my taste well! 
Zolablue, my starter is also robust like yours - it doesn't collpapse easily if at all! I've done as you suggest and tried Glezers 10 grams - which works, quadruples in about 5 hours and it crests eventually - but I've gone back to my more haphazard approach with 20 grams starter 30 water and 50 flour,letting that sit for 8 hours then adding 100 grams of water and 100 of flour, letting that sit over night and adding to that for the final dough the next morning for a loaf I can bake that evening. It works really well for me and because it is a routine which fits very well with my working hours, is easier than waiting for the starter to crest etc.
Eric, what is the one step formula from SDG? Do I take it that a small amount of starter is added to the full amount of flour / water / salt for the final dough in one go? If so - sounds interesting! What about kneading / folding etc?
Thanks
Andrew

First let me say that I don't know high the starter rose and how long it took during the night, but it had collapsed by this morning. Today at 23 hours after the last feed I checked the ph and it was 3.64 so I hope that is a good sign. Now that it got fed again I'm waiting for it to quadruple (hopefully),  then I'll use some of the starter to make the dough but I won't feed the rest of it until tomorrow morning. That way I'm hoping to get a mild loaf, but not feed the starter too soon. Does it sound like a good/bad idea? All comments welcome!!

Andrew, if I may answer your question - yes that is basically the idea. No kneading necessary, just a fold or 2 along the way after an hour or so, and maybe one more an hour later if you are around. Very, very convenient once you know how much starter to use to have the dough ready to bake when you want it. Try it - you might get hooked.

L_M

Well the plan did work, and I must say that even though the dough's rising times were slightly faster than before, the taste of the bread was still very intense - not at all harsh or acidic but I'd still prefer it to be milder. So far the starter only reaches around triple so I'm hopeful that if I just continue feeding it will get stronger and that will speed things up and the flavour will be milder. 

Zolablue I'm a bit confused from your last comment about not waiting too long before it's next feeding, as I understood that waitng the extra time after it collapses is actually good for a starter that is not that strong yet - making sure not to overfeed. BUT, in a strong starter that already works according to the golden rule, waiting the extra time is a convenient option.  Did I misunderstand you, or is that correct?

L_M

Zolablue I think everything is clear, but now that I see you are concerned about pushing the limit for only 1 -3 hours, I'm really wondering whether I can go by other signs rather than just the clock. This is what I've noticed so far... it now takes about 7 - 8 hours to triple and doesn't seem to rise any higher than that. At that point the top is in a very nice strong dome and not fragile at all.  It will stay like that for another hour or so and then it starts to look a bit torn in a few spots and the surface starts to look rumpled. That is the point I've been calling  "collapse". From then on it starts to lose height very slowly but still keeps the rumply domed surface and this can go on for about 8 - 9 hours. Then it will flatten out and finally start to sink down and there will be high marks on the container. (So far this firm starter has never picked itself up to rise again like the looser ones would after they sank down.) After this final "sink" there would still be about 2 hours left before the 12 hours from the start of the collapse was up.  I wait those 2 hours, then feed. Now I'm wondering...if that wasn't too long. What do you think - do you let yours get to the sinking point? I agree, it sound better to go by signs rather than the clock.  Thanks again for taking the time to explain this to me.

L_M

Hi Zolablue, this is getting exciting! Today it took only 6 -7 hours to triple, so it really looks like it is getting stronger - no signs of it growing any higher yet, but don't worry I have a lot of patience. As long as I'm sure it's going in the right direction I'll keep at it.

I think maybe "high marks" wasn't the right choice of words because it is really more like you have described - sticking to the sides and the part that was domed sinks down (quite a lot), but if that also happens to yours before you feed it, then I'm not worried.

If quintupling is going to happen, that will really be amazing!

Keep you posted...

L_M

Each day it got faster but still only made it to triple, but today....it took only about 4 1/2 hours to triple, and now at 7 hours the top of the dome is at quintuple and still looks very smooth. The only change I made today was that I wanted to clean out the other container so I put it in a different one that is much wider, so maybe there is a connection between the shape of the container and the higher rise, and maybe it was just the right time for it to take off... probably I'll experiment in a narrow container sometime again.

Now I feel that I've joined in the world of sourdough. I don't know why it hasn't worked until now, but I've been trying to get a really active starter going for such a long time.

Now for the fun part - which is your favourite recipe, and do you make any adjustments?

I still can't believe that it has passed the golden standard rule!

L_M

Yes I really am very happy that I've finally got it a starter with happy critters.  The first step I do is to dissolve and fluff up the the starter with the water just the same way as you have mentioned Zolablue, and I do that as well with my 100% hydration starters - I'm always amazed at how fluffy it gets with a whisk.

Thanks for the recipe suggestions, and the conversion ratio for a 100% hydration starter will come in very handy since I'm always playing around with recipes! Yesterday I was very busy so  the only time I got into the kitchen to start the dough was at 12:00 last night. I mixed together a 1/2 batch of Sourdough-guy's one step method dough, and I just had to guess how much of this starter to use, since it is now very active, and taking into account the heat - sometimes with and sometime without AC on... I ended up using 6 grams of starter (for almost 500 grams flour) and luckily it worked out in perfect timing, 15 hours from mix to bake. I haven't tasted it yet but it looks very good. So far I have stayed away from including WW and WR flour because I understand that it can emphasize the sourness in bread (and I was getting so much  of it with only white flour), so now I will be able to experiment freely.

I still find it hard to believe that the starter rises so quickly - now I can finally relax and enjoy it instead of wondering all the time how to get it moving!

L_M

So sorry about that -  don't want you to think I was ignoring you!!!

The flavour of the loaf was excellent - even a few days later (toasted) it wasn't too sour, so now I'm very pleased with the results.

I have to go now, but I'll continue tomorrow...

L_M

Thanks for the update zolablue.  I'm realizing that I really need to get a better scale. It's pretty hard for me to read anything less than an ounce with much accuracy.

Zolablue that is really interesting that your starter is so set in it's ways - got a mind of it's own!

So far I've been very lucky with mine and now since it has passed it's golden test, I keep it in the fridge unless I think I'll use it within a day or so. The last time it was in the fridge for 5 days and then I just refreshed as usual - 10: 30: 50 ( actually I use only half that amount to maintain so it really is  5:15:25) and it performed beautifully - quadruple in 6 hours and quintuple (the very top of the dome) in 7 hours,  then stayed there for another hour or 2 and slowly started to shrink but was still domed. At that time I either use some - but don't feed the rest of it yet - it or put it all in the fridge again, so it seems like it is happy with that sort of pattern. I hope this is ok because none of this as been going on for a really long period of time yet.

As for the wwflour giving a sour taste - this is just what I've read and not from personal experience, so I was steering clear of it until I was sure my starter was in great shape. As a matter of fact the loaf I made was Pain au levain from "Bread" , and I decided to start with that one because of the footnote saying how mild it was, and it does call for some rye flour but the only rye flour available here is whole rye. The bread was the mildest sourdough I've made yet, (and very good) so I'll increase the amount of whole grains  as I go along.

A few days ago my oven went on strike - I think I over did it with the steam... until the repairman comes on Sunday I won't be able to bake anything, and now I realize how much I enjoy and miss it!

 KipperCat, I don't think I'd be able to manage working with such a small amount of starter without a scale that measures per 1 gram.

L_M

Hi, Steve. Zolablue is ceo of firm starter inc, but here's my two bits til she gets here. My firm starter sits neglected in the fridge right along side my batter type, until it's time for some bread. Then I feed it every twelve hours til it's quadrupling under eight again. Earlier in this l-o-n-g thread was a discussion about the ideal feeding schedule, twenty-four hour stretches being perhaps a better option, but I have luck with the twelve. Usually it's awake in a couple days.

Good luck getting that firm starter going again Mini Oven - if it works then for sure I'm going to freeze some of mine as emergency back up. I still have no idea why this is the only starter I could get into a healthy state - all the other liquid ones never had enough strength or speed. Both the flour and water are the same so it I'm now totally convinced that even though I tried everything I could think of, in the end I was still either over or under feeding them, and therefore I couldn't get the right balance of critters. Anyhow I'm sticking with this firm one!

Zolablue since you love the Thom Leonard recipe so much, I'm going to give it a try. Mind you it may be quite different than yours since I'll be using local flour. If I remember correctly, somewhere someone mentioned that the original recipe calls for 30 grams of stiff starter and not 45 grams liquid as posted in mountaindog's personal notes - hope that's right. Just out of curiousity, did you mix with a mixer or by hand? I'll try to pay special attention not to overproof.

I think the only thing that may drive me crazy with this firm starter is figuring out how much of it to use in place of a liquid starter, since it seems to be more potent. I like to start a recipe at night and in the morning make the dough, but with this heat I think it's best to build up with the firm one (because it can last longer), even if the recipe calls for a liquid one. Hopefully after a few tries I'll get into the rythum.

L_M

Hi Zolablue, the only recipe I have is from this site so thanks for letting me know and I've now made a note about the different amounts as you have mentioned above - is there anything else?

I made it once (using only 1/4 of the recipe for my first try) and the flavour was very nice but I still have some things to work on with the texture...at least now I'm not afraid that I have to get everything done quickly before it gets too sour - it doesn't - the flavour is mild (even with the ww and w rye flour) and I'm so happy about that because it was my main concern all along. I'm not sure whether I slightly overproofed on the final rise - in some places it looked like it was starting to rip - or it was because the flour is weak, but it sort of sighed when I slashed even though it felt like it was at the same stage as it usually does. Next time I'm going to add a bit of gluten because the stongest flour here has 11% protein, and although it works and gives a nice rise and delicate crumb for yeasted dough and also for sourdough with all white flour, I think the addition of the whole grain flours may have been just a bit too much for it to support.  

I see what you mean about using it like yeast, but I still have trouble believing it's actually going to work so I'm still a bit too uptight about it all - trying to work out the timing for all of the recipes, and then of course the math... I would love to just calm down and I'm sure that after a few good loaves I'll take a deep breath and start to enjoy the magic.

L_M

that my thawed out firm starter just lies there. It's been a few days, it is now a liquid but neither smells like anything or trying to pop my ziplock. The mixture was 25g starter, 50 g water and 125g flour, frozen (-18°c) after 3 days in the refrigerator. It does have bubbles but not active ones. No signs of separation, contamination or mold. Time to thaw out another one and find my notes on it. 

Dug them all out of the freezer.  Found some frozen grapes too, munch on 'em while thinking...

Let's see, the stuff was ripe... maybe, so therefore no growth.  The "no smell" is beginning to get to me...  one would think it would really be ripe and stinky by now...  just dissolved a teaspoon of the starter (and it has the same consistancy of a ripe starter) in 100g water and add 100g flour.  Update late tonight ... or whenever.... does freezing kill the stink beasties?  (I can see spock raising an eyebrow.)  --Mini

Glad to hear that something is happening.  So was this latest concoction just from one feeding? Does it look like it still needs a bit of refreshing before actually making bread? These firm starters seem to made out of strong stuff! Good luck with using up what you've got so far - if you put it in the fridge you can just take your time and add some of it to everything you bake.

Frozen grapes...sounds lie a nice snack!

L_M

OK. I froze my firm starter because I was leaving my husband alone with the fridge for 2 months and thought it might get thrown out. I had to find my notes on this stuff and glad everything got written down under the forum topic: Firm starter 5° back in April. Now I know why there's no smell. Eric, you and I are growing too much calcium in the brain... Now how do I make a link?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2714/firm-starter-5

or Here 

if you could post the recipe and your modifications since I don't have that book.

I made the Pain au levain again and this time cut down on the time of the final proof and the result was better. I always use the poke test and that's why I was surprised that the dough looked ripped the last time - the poke was still ok, but obviously it was too long for that dough, and I imagine it probably would have been better not to slash at all.

I'm repeatedly getting good flavour from this starter now, but I'm still not happy with the texture of the bread. It isn't dense, but my yeasted breads of the same type are  lighter.  I found the posts Mariana made about this subject (in the thread about SAF yeast) very interesting and I'm wondering if waiting so long before feeding the starter after it collapses, (and also I have let the starter for the bread collapse and wait a bit before starting to make the dough with it) isn't contributing to weakness of the dough at oven time...it sounds very logical to me I'd like to give her method a try so I can compare. 

L_M

Zolablue, I was delighted to read that you use AP, WW and rye flour in your sourdough pagnotta - that gives me hope... I reread Bwraith's blog to get some background on the recipe and I do have Sourdough-guy's original recipe printed out, so it looks like I'm all ready - but - how much of your firm starter do you start out with to keep approx. within the times suggested in the recipe? You also mentioned that you decreased the water - just a few grams or quite a bit? I might add a bit of oil because my crowd likes a softish crust.

 The Pain au levain recipe is from Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread" pg.158, and I'm sure the 'culprit' is me and not the recipe. I still am not yet familiar enough with sourdough to know in which stages it's ok (or not) that the dough feels different from a yeasted dough, and that's why it's hard for me to tell if I'm doing something wrong. It seems like nothing can replace experience...

L_M

Nice to see you back Bill, and thanks for jumping in to save the day when it comes to figuring out all the  'how much, how long' etc. I find it very interesting that different starters actually make different tasting bread. With all of my other ones I don't really know for sure that they give a sour taste or whether it's just that they aren't balanced correctly, but I'm sooooo happy with this one that I'm sticking with it!

I'll start making the levain and see how long that takes to double, but in the meantime (to give you an idea), when I feed 10 starter: 30 water :50 flour it takes about 3 - 3 /12 hr to double, 6 - 6 1/2 hr to quadruple, 7 -8 hr to quintuple and then starts to wrinkle and slowly shrink. All these times are at room temp which usually range between 26C - 30C,  depending on AC or not, day, night etc.

I'll be making 1/2 the recipe to try it out, and no oil this time as you suggested. I'll let you know later on how long it took to double.

L_M

;) no t/j here! :D

 Zolablue, now I've really got my hands full - so many recipes to try out! I can get spelt flour here (I haven't ever tried it yet), but I'm afraid that I've never seen graham flour around anywhere - I'll keep an eye out for it though.

Exploding loaves??? Well we'll see tomorrow when I make the dough as Bill has written out above. As a matter of fact it seems that when I loosen the starter up by making the levain, it slows down. 

 For the timing Bill, the levain took 3 1/2 hours to double and since it is quite warm I only left it for another 45 min before putting it in the fridge, rather than the hour you suggested, and it was still rising. I'll continue with the dough tomorrow and hopefully all will go well.

L_M

What I thought was going to be a very calm day to try out the recipe turned out to be quite hectic and I wasn't around to do the folding at the right times, but none the less everything went very well. I haven't tasted it yet but the boules are light in weight and the crust is thin and has slightly softened, so I'm really hoping the crumb and taste will be good as well.

The total time from mix to bake was 4 hr 45 min. I used half the recipe, and split the dough into 2 small boules. They baked for 50 min. together in a large oblong roaster with a domed glass cover (great for checking progress) at 215C  starting out in a cold oven. There was no room in the pot for me to slash so I snipped with scissors instead, and the oven spring was quite impressive! I removed the cover after about 35 min when they just started to show colour. For the last 5 -10 min they baked directly on the oven rack and I think I could have let them stay in a few more minutes to deepen the colour a bit.  Internal temp was 211F.

Zolablue like you say, this starter is working so well that I think it's best to stick to the original instructions, but I must say that when I made the levain for this recipe, which is much looser than the original atarter, the method Bill suggested was very convenient and worked out very well, so now I'm finally experiencing all the lenient schedules that eveyone was talking about but never worked with my slow poke starters before.

My next bread will be Thom Leonard's, and I'm very interested to see how the long kneading time will effect the crumb -  I'll post the results in your blog.

L_M

I'm very happy to report that the taste was the best I've had so far and the crumb was good too, so I'm very pleased. I better get some starter fed so it'll be ready for my next round of baking...

L_M

Hi Zolablue,

you asked me in another thread about how often I feed my starter. Well, there is no such thing as My Stater, or The Starter to begin with. I am much more relaxed about this subject now, after I discovered how easy and cheap it is to create a fabulous starter in a couple of days and in that same period of time to develop a variety of designer starters as I wish. In a sense, if I am more than 3 days away from home, it is better to create a new starter, than to keep the existing one in the fridge during my travels. The last book by Daniel Leader really made me think that there is nothing sacred about any particular starter. Every one of them is a fluffy smelly ball of magik, joy and happiness. He says on p. 44

" the myth that an old sourdough is beter than a new one was debunked for me by master baker Jean LeFleur in Paris almost 20 years ago. He told me that he liked to create a new levain from scratch several times a year, to ensure that his was never too sour."

Anyways, the rule is to feed when it's ready, right? : )  In Maggie Glezer's terms that means, 'after it has fully fermented and started to deflate', 'feed it once it reaches its maximum height and the first wrinkle appeared on the surface'. It also means 'feed when acidity is right (no off flavors in terms of strange acidic flavors)', 'feed when its aroma is at its peak and it tastes sweet, milky, and mildly tart', as Leader puts it.

So that is all I do. Once a starter, any of them, reaches its maximum height and feels right, I feed it. A tablespoon of starter gets to drink 2 Tbsp of water and eat about 1/3 cup of flour. : )  I always keep them in firm, stiff form, at a temperature typical of the temperature range of fermentation of the dough they will be inhabit in the near future. The choice of flour is also identical to the one in a future bread: white, WW, multigrain, rye, semolina... This ensures the continuity of microflora right to the end. I rely on salting to slow down fermentation more than on low temperatures, keeping starters salted at 0.1% to 2% as they would be in the final dough. Since protease is so salt-sensitive, salt keeps it in check and thus protects protein from liquefying.

So they live outside the fridge now, each in a pretty glass jar, and depending on the temperature, they reach their maximum height anytime by the 2nd to 4th day of storage.  And that is when I use them in breadmaking, saving a tablespoon for feeding it and taking it with me to the next breadmaking adventure.

This way, "my starter" is a creature that lives at room temperature and occasionally gets cooled down to 55-65F when I set my AC to really low temp. Most people who bake sourdough bread at home use starters that live in the fridge, i.e. most homemade starters evolve to do ok in a refrigerator's environment, below 40F. These starters only occasionally get warmed up to room temperature to be fed, and soon after go back to their cold home inside the fridge.

Where do you want me to post for you the recipe for sourdough Acme baguette, Zolablue?  The main trick was to figure out how to replace yeast with starter, i.e. to caclulate the right amount of starter to introduce into the scrap dough, poolish, and final dough. Because Maggie Glezer is such a genius breadbook writer, it was easy to calculate. All the necessary data was there. I'll share with you my results, OK?

Hi Mariana, Zolablue, Bill and everyone else,

I must say that I am thoroughly enjoying all the discussions and posts about the world of sourdough. Since I've just recently got my firm starter going well and I'm not yet very sure of myself, but when I follow Zolablue's instructions to wait, wait, wait before feeding it goes against all of my instincts but it does work well. Mariana now that you have suggested building up the starter 3 times before using it in the dough and catching it at it's peak as you have mentioned above, I decided that before going on to another recipe I would try Bill's basic SD (from above) again using this technique along with a few other new approaches. Well, aside from the math boggling my mind as how to break down the feeds and end up with the right amount of levain, I found that if I feed at the first sign of a sag or wrinkle, then it slows down and doesn't rise quite as much after the next feed. Crazy - yes, but that's what seems to happen.

This time I kneaded the dough quite like the directions for the Thom Leonard boules so the dough was well kneaded - very thin windowpane, and after that divided the dough and used Mariana's 'kaiser petal' method . It took quite a few, with a few minute rests in between before the dough started to feel like it could hold itself together. Now that the dough has fermented somewhat I'm going to shape them and start proofing even though I'm not sure it really is the correct time. I'll see how it goes from here, and post the results.

Mariana, I have about a million questions about your methods - hope you don't mind

L_M

Hello Eric! I will post illustrated bread techniques and their results in a blog if you teach me how to have one. OK?

Re: long-lived starters vs quick’n’fresh starters. It seems to me that in American and French literature, in literature targeting professional bakers vs literature targeting amateurs, there is a difference in the set of arguments and evidence supporting one particular way of ‘developing’ a starter.

In the US published books for home bakers, the party line is that functional starters take weeks if not a full month to develop. It is stated that starters can live forever, and not only that – that it takes anywhere from months to years of focused refreshments to fully develop its flavor and create a really stable community of organisms, a population that just doesn’t budge, doesn’t mutate. At the same time it is recognized that the longer one starter is propagated, the fewer kinds of organisms it will contain, i.e. some species will out compete the rest of them and we may end up with only two or three inhabitants that can tolerate each other – Candida Milleri and Lactobacillus sanfrancisco + Lactobacillus brevis with minor amounts of Streptococcus. 

Younger starters with diverse micro flora (over 14 known species of wild yeast and over 70 knows species of lactic bacteria) have more complex aroma. They contain two groups of lactic bacteria

(1)   rod shaped bacilli like Lb.plantarum, Lb brevis, Lb sanfrancisco

(2)   spherical shaped bacilli like Leuconostoc, Pediococcus, Streptococcus

In the French literature for professional bakers, I see less poetic and more practical approach, focused on starter and bread production. It is not as sentimental or emotional, much more energetic and crafty.   From the point of view of a French baker, if s/he wants to bake sourdough only once a week or more seldom than that, s/he will develop a starter ‘a la carte’, as needed. Why preserve starter at all, risking both alteration of micro flora and development of off-flavors from intruders, if a starter can be created from scratch two days prior to baking!  Clean, sharp, tangy smells typical of old starters are not as favored by everyone as bouquet of gentle aromas typical of less weathered pre-ferments and leavens.

Hello Zolablue, the surge in power of the starter that you observed after refrigeration is most likely due to the difference in yeast and bacteria tolerance to cold. Yeasts are more hardy than bacteria when cultures are refrigerated, so their numbers continue to rise quite fast in refrigerator, whereas lactic bacteria don’t take cold as lightly and reduce in numbers somewhat. When inside the fridge, yeast gets an edge or a leg up, so to speak. Also, as Susan mentioned, retarded (chilled) doughs get a chance to develop higher sugar content (amylase works on starch longer). Once warmed up, higher numbers of yeast cells and higher amounts of sugar in the starter will become obvious as a ‘surge in power’ of the starter.

When Maggie Glezer refrigerated a starter for three years and then refreshed it five times, I suspect that she might have created a new deliciously healthy starter from microflora in the fresh flour. In the creation of a new starter, you get 3.5 - 4.2-fold increase in volume in 8 hours or less by the third refreshment, if you keep it stiff as you refresh it, never switching to the highly hydrated version.

The nasty critters present in the flour used to initiate the starter, such as

(1)   Coliform bacteria 100 cells/gram of flour

(2)   Mold 1000 spores/gram of flour,

are no longer present in microflora of an active wheat or rye starter. There are zero cells of coliform bacteria and zero spores of mold detected per each gram of flour in a ready starter, according to the reports of French and German microbiologists. Such is power of acetic acid, otherwise known as vinegar (used as a disinfectant in household by many of us).  Nasty critters might appear in liquid starters (where acetic acid is poorly produced and what is produced gets diluted) created or maintained by using inappropriate flours and regimens of fermentation of starter.

Properly initiated starter has so many yeast and lactic bacteria cells and so much food for them that acid production begins right away and gets rid of ‘nasty critters’.  For example, if a baker initiates starter from white flour, s/he begins with 1000 yeast cells and 300 lactic bacteria cells in each gram of flour in a starter-to-be mixture. If a baker initiates a starter from whole grain mix, s/he begins with 30,000 yeast cells and 6000 lactic bacteria cells in each g of flour. Makes a difference, doesn’t it?

I can’t get enough of your careful attention to Glezer’s writings, Zolablue. You are a perfect student of bread making and a wonderful baker, my friend. What you see on p 103 of Artisan Baking Across America  is a brief summary of classification of yeasted pre-ferments presented by Didier Rosada in his excellent paper on preferments, published online here:

Of course, one can classify sourdough starters as wild yeast preferments, with analogies in the World of Yeasted Preferments. So stiff salted sourdoughs, like those used  in Germany and France, will be similar to pre-fermented yeasted doughs. Firm unsalted starters, like Maggie Glezer’s quadruplers, will have their counterparts in yeasted bigas and sponges.  And liquid starters are known as poolishes when they are inoculated with baker’s yeast instead of wild yeast.  Whatever it takes to develop flavor and leavening power, bakers will do it : )

The beauty of stiff pre-ferments, both sourdough and yeasted, is that there is a wide window of time that separates under ripe leaven from overripe one. That is why when you wait for several hours after your starter reached its maximum height before feeding it, it’s ok. Its gluten might be weakened, but there is still plenty of food inside and yeasties and lactic bacteria keep multiplying. Feeding it too soon will create a poor starter, indeed, just as adding a yeasted preferment to the final dough too soon will not get you what you want – maximum flavor and leavening power. I use Canadian flours, as I mentioned, with very strong gluten which Canadian millers make even stronger by added ascorbic acid. Add a little salt to keep protease away from liquefying gluten, and you see that my starters have a long, long, looong  “staying tall“ time. So when my starter wrinkles, it really is over : )  It is safe to feed then.  

Hi L_M, how are you today? How does that raw dough smell? Nice, eh?  I am so proud of you and your firm starter! Good for you!

We can safely follow Zolablue’s instructions indeed. She never twists procedures and does things that work. You can count on both her knowledge and expertise.

Let me ask you a couple of questions, if you don't mind. Do your refreshed portions (intermediate sponges) rise at least 3.5 times in volume before they wrinkle? Mine rise about fivefold before getting refreshed. Do you whip each portion in water to a stiff, S T I F F, foam before adding flour?  I do, and this encourages tremendous explosion of gas production by yeasties resulting in high rise.  Try these techniques, they might work. OK? Also, keep me posted about your gorgeous boules once they are baked and eaten : )

 I would love to chat with you about bread making that takes place in your kitchen and mine. Of course!  I obviously don’t have a million answers, hardly any, in fact, but together we will figure out things. I am sure. Doing things and writing about them helps build skill and understand processes better than simply reading books and forums. 

Hi all,

It's taken a while but the results are in, and in the meantime I've baked another batch. So we have 3 batches all baked in the covered roaster as I described above. The volume of the baked boules of all 3 batches were almost identical, maybe #3 was 1/2 cm higher.

The first one (as I mentioned above) was made as closely as possible to the recipe, had great flavour and good, but not great crumb. The total time from mix to bake was about 4 hrs 45 min.

The second had a new brand of ww flour because I ran out of my usual one, and was kneaded until I got a thin windowpane. The levain was built up in 3 stages similar to Mariana's suggestion, starting from a piece of fed starter stored straight away in the fridge, then let it really puff up and feeding each time when it started to wrinkle. The first 2 feeds were the same ratios as I feed my firm starter  (5gm starter :15gm water :25gm AP flour). I did it that way because I didn't want to get mixed up and use the wrong total hydration in the dough. The final levain was according to the recipe. It seemed to me that the dough was a bit too loose, but I left it as it was. After mixing I divided the dough right away and did the 'kaiser petals' until it could hold it's shape better. Along the way it absorbed quite a bit of flour from the counter. I waited for them to get very puffy, snipped then baked. Total time from mix to bake was 8 hrs. Flavour was not great - not very but somewhat too sour. Crumb wasn't as good as  batch #1.

The third had the same ww flour as #2. I used Bill's original instructions without the intermediate build ups, and the firm starter was taken from the fridge left over from the building up of the last batch. This time I cut down a bit on the water in the final dough, gave it a good kneading, divided, kaiser petals, proof, bake. Total time from mix to bake was 7 hrs. The flavour was still a bit too sour, but this time the crumb was excellent.

So what does this all mean?  From my experience so far, if the whole mix to bake process gets done quickly, meaning my starter is in great condition, then we like the flavour - mild, mild, mild. I haven't yet tried retarding the dough using a vigorous starter though. 

My flour doesn't seem to think "wetter is better", and there may also be a slight difference in the two ww flours. I like the crumb better with a lower hydration and the thorough kneading- it seems fine rather than course, and the texture seemed also more even, with no gigantic holes.

I'm hoping to combine #1's flavour with #2's crumb.

 Hi Mariana, in answer to your questions: first the raw dough smelled like it was going to taste too sour - unfortunately I've had that too many times already, and yes Zolablue's instructions have undoubtedly been the best for me!

The intermediate sponges did rise up to about 3 1/2 in volume but  they were at 60% hyrdration, so I wasn't too impressed. I used a hand whisk to whip them up with the water but all I get is a very soft foam. Today I tried with a battery device for frothing milk and it did get even foamier but not very stiff at all. Maybe that is because you use more starter in relation to the water? Or maybe again it is my weak flour. Bill has always stressed a concern about my flour not being able to perform the same as would be expected, but stong flour is just not available here. I have gluten, ascorbic acid and diastatic malt, so I could use any/all of these if you think it would make a difference. For some reason I thought that when the wrinkles start, that means the food is finished and the gluten is starting to degrade, but from your explaination above I understand that the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. Now that makes more sense to me and I see how I was being fooled by my weak flour, collapsing before the starter was really hungry! I've probably overfed all of my starters until now. My recently fed starter has just quadrupled in 7 hours and is still rising, so it is fine but still a bit of a slowdown from all of these experiments.

I also read in Hamelman's book about salting the levain to slow it down, but I've always been too afraid to try... like what could happen??? and you seem to do it with your starter with good results. Since it's still very hot here I'd like to try splitting the starter and salting some so I'm interested to know how you measure such a small amount of salt?

Today I gave my family a rest from sourdough and baked a multigrain with yeast ..yummm

L_M

I'm constantly experimenting how much water my flour can absorb and still give the type of crumb that I like, and sometimes even though the dough feels really sticky when I'm kneading, it still comes out nice so I don't think I can actually pinpoint the cause. Mind you that is with commmercial yeast, and I still find sourdough to be quite different. but I will cut down on the water slightly until I am pleased with the results. The heat seems to make the dough sticky as well, so if it's going to get a good knead in the mixer I need to have all the ingredients cold from the fridge to start out. Then sometimes it's still necessary to give it a few rests in the FREEZER for a few minutes in order to keep the final temperature of the dough within limits. That tip I learned from Emily Buehler. Sometimes it is frustrating because it's very hard for me to estimate how long it'll take to finish kneading with all the rests etc.

Bill can you tell me the reason you think more ash might help? The ash content is not listed on the flour but I can tell you that I have never been able to make bread that has a white crumb - it's always beige or creamy yellowish. The colour of supermarket bread is white. Does that give any clues?  

Mariana I took your advice and really whipped, whipped, whipped up the starter and water. I used a hand mixer and got very nice soft peaks that anyone could mistake for eggwhites! Today the starter quadrupled - top of the dome - in about 6 hrs but I don't think it'll get to quintuple.

Computer man is coming to fix something so I'll continue later...

L_M

So I was right - it didn't really make it to much higher than quadruple but today it also collapsed faster than yesterday. Is that significant ? Now here comes the dilema...too soon to feed, but leaving it overnight will be too long...solution...put it in the fridge, That's how the cycle goes because feeding only once every 24 hours is not enough. It's still so hot here and probably for a few hours during the day it's actually too hot for the yeast. I'm going to try salting the starter but since I keep very small amounts starter and don't have that wonderful scale I'm either going to count the grains of salt (not!) or mix up a larger salt/flour batch ahead of time and use a bit of it each time. Maybe a touch of ascorbic acid too? Or should I leave that for the dough? Mariana, if this slows everything down then how am I going to know when it is the right time to feed the starter again, since the visual signs will probably be different from before? See what I mean about the million questions???

If all goes well tomorrow I'll be ready to start the levain for another batch. I hope the starter is vigorous enough to raise the dough quickly. When the starter has fully risen it smells very nice, sort of like a fruity bouquet.

I have nothing against adding a bit of bakers yeast in the dough, but for now I'd like to learn how to make a good loaf without it. To tell you the truth, there are 2 reasons why I started on this project - first - the challenge. The second is that I read sourdough has a long shelf life, and we only like to eat fresh bread/rolls, whether I make them or buy them. The supermarket is very close by and good bread and is not hard to find. I had never even tasted sourdough before. So far the only bread that we find lasts for an extra day fresh enough is multigrain, made with a soaker and preferment. Maybe I'm still doing something wrong with the sourdough but so far it doesn't stay fresh tasting any longer than bread with yeast.

I've only had time to take a quick glance so far, but your blog looks very nice with lots of info!

L_M

Hi, L_M, your experiments sound great. I think each baker faces unique challenges: for some it's circumstances, like flours available, techniques that they can actually implement, etc. For others it's more about how much time and effort they want to put into development of their skills. 

I admire your desire to experiment to make the kind of bread that you want from the flours you are able to get, it's so awesome. I am not like that. I will mostly persist until the recipe comes out just right, because I believe the authors, and will assume that I don't understand something or lack some skill or need to hunt for the flours that they use to see what they mean, what kind of bread they are talking about. So for you it's a challenge to creatively express yourself in bread. For me it's a challenge to understand other bakers, what they mean when they write about their breads : )

In your circumstances, I wouldn't feed the starter at all. I would use what I need to use in a dough and discard the rest. Once a sponge is ready to be incorporated into dough, I would take a small piece of it, for keeping, and that's all. Some recipes require one intermediate sponge, others up to three sponges: just flour, water and prevous culture/sponge.

Whichever sponge is the last one, prior to mixing final dough, just take a piece out of it, knead more flour into it and you are done. That would be your storage sponge.  To keep it cool, if you don't have a cool place in a house, just put the jar with the storage starter into a bowl of cold water, maybe with a few ice cubes in it, to keep it at 50F.

Do not add ascorbic acid to your starter. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is only added to the final dough to get taller, more round loaves in the end.  In Canada. millers add Vit C to flours automatically, because in Canada breadmaking is a national pastime, LOL.

Good luck with never stale sourdoughs : ) The more I bake them, i.e. the better I become as a baker, the longer they keep.  And I don't like to freeze breads. And I feel uncomfortable when I see a week old loaf that is just as good as new. Strange, huh? Although that is how they are supposed to be and in rural areas housewives still bake breads once a week, for a week, for a large family or for a family and workers on the farm.  As a city dweller, I am used to bread going old in a day and then use it for crumbs and bread puddings.

Hi Mariana, I like your idea of saving some of the final sponge - sounds like it might work out for me, getting into some sort of rythum that I can feel relaxed with. This sounds like the way Hamelman says to keep it going in "Bread". Getting used to not  forgetting to save some might take some time, but I always have a few small containers with storage or discards in the fridge for back - up. This 'scrap sponge' (like scrap/old dough) method is pretty well what you described earlier on in another thread, but there I think you suggested keeping it in the fridge and taking out a small bit, let it rise, and then start building from there... have I got it right? That is how I started out in loaf #2 . Even though I put it in the fridge right away after feeding, it had already risen in the fridge to about double in just a day or 2, I let it puff up for about 8 hrs waiting for it to quadruple, then proceeded on, but in the end that wasn't a good loaf.

The cold water in a bowl is such an easy solution! I've been taking the temp of every single spot in the house looking for somewhere even slightly cool, but no luck. Thank you for suggesting it!!! For dough I think this will be the best way, but as a permenent home for a starter I'm afraid it might not work, since the temp won't be constant and then let's say I'm not around for quite a few hours...it starts to warm up...starter starts to rise...then it starts to wrinkle.... I'm not planning to bake for another day or 2...uh-oh... then what do I do? feed it I guess.  Well maybe it's not so bad, and in the winter I'll probably be able to keep it on the counter and feed it once in 24 hr, or get the salt routine worked out. Even if I try to follow Zoloblue's instructions very carefully, sometimes the starter slows down and again I don't know whether I've fed too early or to late, Sorry if I sound so jumbled, but as you can see, that's what's going on in my mind.

I'll try adding A tiny pinch of ascorbic acid in the dough and see if I notice any difference. 

L_M

Hi L_M,

we have already discussed retardation/refrigeration in another thread. I know that many people refrigerate their starters and even freeze them and they are OK. I did it before, when I was a complete newbie and was buying starters from Sourdough International. Then I changed my mind. Ed Wood from SI told me that he doesn't know what's in his starters, no analysis was ever done, not to the original starters, nor to his own line of products that he propagates. So there is absolutely no quality control. Next, I read in The Taste of Bread that sourdoughs shouldn't be subjected to the temperatures below 50F, because lactic bacteria are sensitive to cold and will turn their toes up, so to speak.

Then I read article on preferments by Didier Rosada and he also indicates that preferments are not refrigerated. Liquid or firm or very stiff, none of them are refrigerated, because it will defeat the purpose - to grow lactic bacteria.

 Only scraps of old bread dough can be refrigerated for up to 48 hours to be used as a 'sponge' in the next batch of bread dough. Next, from that new bread dough a piece will be taken and used as a scrap dough for the tomorrow's bread, etc. This chain can last only for 8 days. After that, old dough method will stop working they say. You will have to create a completely new pre-ferment from fresh yeast to use as a sponge in breadmaking.

If your existing starter is so moody, you might as well practice creating starters from scratch. Both solid and liquid starters take about 2- 3 days to become fully functional and create fantastic naturally leavened bread.  It really is that simple for as long as you use rye berries or dark rye flour mixed with bread flour. Set yourself free from those issues of starter maintenance and handling. The more you know, the luckier you get, they say. : )  At least, control quality where you can control it. Bread is a simple project. It only becomes complicated when we use difficult to handle materials and mediocre recipes/procedures.

You should also know that a starter can be kept at high temperatures without feeding for up to 5 days and be used in breadmaking. It will not be leavening bread, but it will condition the dough and flavor it very well. For leavening, use baker's yeast.  Such aged starters are called 'type 2' sourdough (altoghether, there are 3 types of sourdough cultures ).

Well I hope I've learned my lesson for good now - not to make bread solely with my starter if I'm not absolutely sure it's in perfect condition. So in short, nothing new to report on this last batch I've made.

Mariana the more I think about what you have said, the more convinced I am that my starter is moody because of me! After all I am the sole caretaker...I decide how, when and what to feed it, and where it lives.  If I constantly subject it to extreme temperatures - often the exact opposite from the last, for unequal periods of time, not ever allowing it to fully recover from the last bout, I really should be amazed that it can do what it does. Possibly those that keep the starter in the fridge for storage and do several refreshment to get it going again at room temp, which for most is probably optimal starter temp as well, then they are giving it the time neccesary to  build back the correct balance - or it actually starts up a new starter - but for whatever reason, this method works well for them. Not me - the second it comes out of the fridge, I give it a smack in the face with the heat...poor thing...but no more :-)

Zolablue I'm wondering if you'd be willing to do a little experiment for me. Next time you feed you starter, take part of it and feed it with AP flour that is unbleached, no additives, and about 11% protein (if you have any). What I'd really like to find out is how it looks by the time it's ready to be fed again, compared to your starter using the flour you usually do - does it rise as high, collapse faster, and does it sink deeper in the middle. The reason I ask is because I'm going to get a thermos to keep the starter living on the counter at a more moderate and constant temperature than it is now, and going by the visual signs I'm still not really sure when is the best time to feed. Sometimes it looks very vigorous and sometimes not, but I can't really put my finger on 'the best time' yet . If it the experiment isn't convenient for you then don't worry. I'm sure that now it's in a more constant temp I'll be able to figure it out in a few days. In the meantime it's on the counter in a bowl of cool water.

L_M

Hi Bill,

I certainly do remember those experiments - we both had quite a few little jars of starters racing each other. If I remember corrctly from what I've read, using AP flour to feed a starter isn't a problem at all since it has more starch than bread flour which is just what the yeast need. But, I can easily add some ww or w rye, and strangely enough the largest selection of flours here is ww but unfortunatly my favourite brand is no longer available :-(  You mentioned before that possibly flours with more ash may help in some way. I was just wondering what you had in mind.

My fridge keeps around 4C. I"ll pay attention to as many details as possible for now until I feel the starter is completely back on track, but for the most part I'm quite consistant in my methods and feeding ratios etc.

About the temp...during the summer we usually have very reliable weather. I live near the coast so we have quite high humidity - 70 - 75 %. From mid May to around the end of Sept during the day it will be around 30C - 31C and at night 25C - 27C. Soon we'll be due for some dry heat waves....maybe 35C and no rain until around Nov (well maybe a day or 2 in Oct. ) Often we put on the AC when we're home but not always. Winter is a different story... sometimes it can be very warm outside but it doesn't really warm up the house. I'm always cold so at about 18C - 19C I put on the heater and it might warm up to 20C -22C . During the night the heater is never on so it can get down to around 10C.  So that is our weather report, year in, year out. I remember searching the house for the 'perfect spot' for the sourdough in the winter and never finding it. Funny, that's what I've been doing all summer too, and again no luck.

Tomorrow I'll be hunting for a good thermos.

L_M

Today as I was looking for a conveniently shaped thermos, I just remembered that I have a Donvier ice cream maker which actually has the perfect shape, so I'll be trying that out. It's not exactly a thermos but hopefully after a bit of experimenting I can get it to keep the temperature close to the 24C - 26C range for quite a few hours.

I was reading back to the beginning of this thread just to refresh my memory on how my starter behaved and it seems that I was keeping it at room temp until it really took off. No doubt - it was just as hot then as it is now. From the beginning I fed it the same ratio and the same flour. When I was sure it passed the golden test with flying colours, I started storing it in the fridge, and took it out to feed every few days, let it stay on the counter until it had just started to collapse (maybe even a bit longer) and back it went into the fridge. It worked for a short while but now that it's been on the counter for a few days (lately in the bowl with cool water) and I'm trying very hard to keep the water within the optimal temp range, it seems to be slowing down. It still reaches quintuple but it is quite a bit slower, and today it didn't even quadruple in 8 hours. Are there different stains of yeast in sourdough? Could I have some that actually thrive in warmer temperatures? I've been feeding about 10 - 11 hours after the first wrinkle and that is anywhere between 20 -22 hours after the last feed. When it has fully risen it smells quite fruity/fragrant, and when it's time to feed, and I mix it up it smells like yeasty beer. Is that good or have I waited too long already? Or maybe I should wait even longer?

Zolablue the reason I asked you to try using the lower protein flour is because I'd like to know what state yours is in by feed time so I can compare it to mine. After I've fed it doesn't stick to my hands or the counter at all - but just barely.  When it is ready to be fed it is still quite thick but stickyish, and it has sunk down quite a bit in the center but stuck to the sides from where it had risen to earlier on. 

I'm sooo looking forward to an easy routine that works for me...and I'm sure you can imagine that all I really want is a reliable starter that makes flavourful but mild tasting bread with a great texture. That's it. And just like you Zolablue I really don't care what's going on inside as long as it works - but if it stops working, I think the only way I can fix it is if I know what's wrong. I might wait another day or 2 to see how it's doing before I use some w rye, so I can evaluate the effect of the temp first.

L_M

Good idea Zolablue, I've got them going - one is in a bowl with cool water and the other is in my 'ice cream thermos', so they are in similar conditions. It's been 6 hours since the last feed and so far I haven't been able to see a difference between them at all. Now are both at triple height. They start out flat but I'm always refering to the top of the dome when I talk about how much it rises.

You mentioned that sometimes you make bread with some discarded starter straight from the fridge that has been there 2 -3 days. So I'm wondering why you think that if I leave it for 3 -4 days in the fridge and take it out to feed it would change it's balance so much more drastically than yours. When you do put the starter in the fridge for 8 - 10 hours overnight, is that just to avoid feeding it in the middle of the night? If so, how far do you let it rise before you put it in the fridge - does it continue to rise there, or is it actually sort of a halt in time and you just continue wherever you left off, paying no attention to the time it spent in the fridge. Maybe I did something wrong in that area and actually overfed even though it was a few days in the fridge. I don't really remember exactly what state it was in before storing it.

Again just for comparison, what is your room temp range these days? Also if you can let me know what the texture and smell is like at feed time it will give me some more clues to work with.

Zolablue please don't worry about the flour...it works fine with instant yeast and I'm sure it'll be ok with sourdough as well - I just have to understand how it differs from everyone elses and how to treat it to get the best results. I figure that since I live here I might as well use what is readily available, just like all the other things in life that are different here. On my next trip abroad, whenever and wherever that will be, I'm planning to bring back a kg of flour just to compare.

L_M

Hi Zolablue,

Right now I'm 23 hours since the last feed and throughout the whole time there was very little difference between the two of them. They both almost made it to quadruple at 8 hours, at the same time, and rose no more. The 15:30:50 started to wrinkle very slightly at about 9 hours, and the 10:30:50 at 10 hours. After that they both kept the dome very nicely for many hours and sometime during the night they started to level off. This is the first time there was no major sinking in the middle (yet) - they are both still quite level with only a bit of sinking. By feed time did your Artisan flour one sink in the middle or stay level?  

A few weeks ago I made up a portion of storage starter like you have mentioned above - 30:30:50, so that is safely tucked away in the fridge. It does puff up somewhat, so from time to time I deflate it. You know I've been working on getting a healthy starter for such a long time now, so it is lucky I came upon RLB's idea about using the discards. For a time I was feeding my starter just so I'd have enough discards for my yeast breads. I guess at that point I was so fed up from feeding and feeding and feeding with no luck - at least I got good flavour :-)

One more thing I'd like to know - let's say it's 4 or 5 pm and the starter starts to wrinkle, and lets say you go to sleep at midnight, and you put the starter in the fridge for the night. In the morning do you right away feed/use it or do you let it sit for another few hours on the counter before continuing?

Zolablue thanks again for holding my hand me through this.

L_M

Hi Bill,

If I understood you correctly, you are basically saying for me to stop worrying about exactly how high and fast it is rising if I didn't catch it at the perfect time on the last feed -  it will correct itself and make up for it the next time round. In addition to that, if the perfect feeding time will be very inconvenient then just to give it a bit of extra food to keep it going, or keep it cool enough and just let it go for another few hours. Does that sound right?

Your last advice about not putting it in the fridge after it has peaked or started to collapse, seems different from the experience that Zolablue mentions above - and her starter also seems to be robust enough that even the discards are strong enough to withstand the fridge and easily rise dough with no extra help from yeast.  

This morning at feed time (25 hours after the last one) I made a double batch, split it equally, and put them in two identical containers. One went into the ice cream thermos and the other is just sitting on the counter enjoying the room temp. It still takes quite a bit of fiddling around with ice cubes throughout the day to keep the temp in the thermos between 23C-27C . The one on the counter was the winner in all respects that I could see - it rose the fastest, highest, and wrinkled last. I'm not sure I can conclude anything from this, but if it does just as well on the counter then I'd certainly prefer to just let it be. Tomorrow I'll feed a couple of hours earlier and do another round like today to see if the results are the same.

L_M

Hi Zolablue,

It's good to know that this starter can live through alot. I'll keep at it, keep trying different things until it works. It has to work.

Thanks again :-)

L_M

Yes, it seems to be working just fine. The Kiosk on the outside of my freezer door seems to keep the surrounding area cool enough that the starter which spent the whole night and part of the morning there was just over 24C at feeding time. It's just the right size for a small amount of levain/starter. That is a major relief.

Bill as I was in the middle of all of these 'ideal temp' thoughts , I recalled my experiments using the 1Tbsp - 24 hour method at 72F - 77F, and the 1 cup - 12 hour method at 85F. These methods were both supposed to transform a barely alive starter into a healthy one, but now that I think about it, if the very warm 85F is not advised for the yeast, I can't figure out why this method would be used. That is also quite the opposite information shown on the chart that you posted a while ago listing  the different levels of activitiy at different temperatures. Unless of course I misunderstood something along the way, and that certainly is possible.

L_M

Hi Bill,

I guess I did overlook that fact that unwanted invaders may cause problems sometimes, so from the way you explained it, (and I hope I've got it right) the two methods are actually just different ways of trying to bring the starter to a good balance, and without really knowing the cause, it is reasonable to approach it from two angles - one of them is bound to work. The extra 12 hours in the fridge in between rounds was also a mystery - it certainly would be interesting to know why they felt it was important.  

Yes this easy place certainly takes a load off my mind. I've got a few new ideas I'll be trying out in the winter to keep it warm enough, but for now at least I can concentrate on pinpointing the best time to feed. So far it almost quadruples in 8 hours, so it's almost but not quite there yet. 

L_M

And a relief to know the fridge can still be used.
Mini O

ZB, Mini, L_M, I for one am appreciative of ZB's diligence in the testing she is/has conducted. It could be that over time the assertion that temps below 50 F are detrimental to flavor are true. I know that Prof. R. Calvel was convinced that was the case. I suspect that the reduced activity at lower temps would over time affect the population of the community. Some would be harder to wake in the spring so to speak.

So, Thank you ZB for your efforts. Not being able to discern a difference is a result after all.

Eric

I'm running with my blog starter experiment and put some of them on hold in the fridge. They no longer give off much aroma, because they're cold. As soon as they warm up, it's back.
I've picked up some starter from my baker. It's the same one as he always keeps it at room temp and it's pure rye. Part of it is taken for the day's bake and part starts the next days batch, It's been going on like this for 2 centuries. Although there is all kinds of volume and it smells wonderful, he still adds yeast to the loaves.

I seem to notice a direct correlation with flour to yeast growth, or am I imagining it. If 20g starter + 20g flour = double 20g starter + 40g flour = more than double. 20g starter + 100g flour = boom! So if one only feeds a starter double it can't really more than double without adding more flour. True?

Mini O

Zolablue I'm waiting patiently to hear how your new starter is doing. It will be very interesting to know if you can taste or notice any difference between the new and the old one. I'm sure you will be very open minded, and even so, like you said, everyone's starter is different, so your findings will actually only apply to your starters, but none the less it will be a guideline for me.

So far today's 26 hour feed is moving along pretty well at the same speed as the 25 1/2 hr did yesterday. I don't think I'll push it any farther for the time being, after all I'm getting a quadruple in just over 7 hours, and to tell you the truth the closer it is to 24 hours, the easier it will be for me to keep a regular schedule. I honestly cannot see any signs that I can go by other than the clock. From about 22 -26 hours it looks and smells the same, but obviously there is difference.

I'm testing it out for bread making again. This evening I mixed a batch of Sourdough-guy's one step method, since I know that I won't have time to tend to the dough until later on in the day. I'll post the results.

L_M

Hi Zolablue,

I think it's wonderful that you've done all of that experimenting. It seems from your post that you are completely in control of your starter. That is fantastic! You've found what makes a difference, and what doesn't. I'm still far from that stage, but I do agree that the 10 gr feeding wasn't the best for my starter either. After a while I started using 15 gr and I found that over time it was better, but still not consistantly great and I was in the dark as far as signs for when to feed. 

Since I started up the new ones I found that it isn't so scary after all, and I've been carefully watching them at all stages. The mini fridge puts everything into slow motion, whereas the regular fridge seemed to halt activity. This of course is only an observation from a visual point of view, as I have no idea what's going on with the critters inside. I'm still learning when it is the best time to feed. It seems that in the mini, I can stretch out feeding times for longer but now I'm finding that they really do get very acidic that way, and in the end I still have to refresh a few times and catch it very early in the cycle before baking, so it's kind of 6 of one or half a dozen of the other... so as you see I'm still working through it all to find what works best for me.

When I finally figure it all out, and baking with sourdough becomes routine for me, I'll take out the storage starter that I stashed away in the back of the fridge, and by then hopefully I'll have learned enough that I'll be able to reliably compare the new and old ones.

In the meantime my mind is still cluttered with lots of ideas and information, but it sounds like you've been able to sift through and keep what works well for you, and of course that is what it's all about!

L_M

Zolablue, no problem. Thanks for all the info!

Once a day doesn't sound too bad. I might try your ratio. Now I usually keep it in the fridge, where it goes at least a few days between feedings. I've found it will last quite a bit longer if necessary. Either way, I have to feed it once or twice to get it healthy again. I like to start my baking with a starter that smells fresh & yeasty, with no whiff of alcohol or off odors.

I played around a bit with the math. Starting with 15 grams instead of 20 means that you're feeding the fermented flour 5.5 times its weight, instead of only 3.85 times its weight, an increase of about 45%. I can see why it might last a whole day! And it would be very nice to have fresh starter around whenever I get a yen to bake.

I think that I tried feeding only 15 grams at one point, but my starter wasn't real healthy then. I'll get it back in good shape before I try it again. Scrolling down to your message today, I looked at your original photos again. I remember seeing them when you posted, and thinking that seemed more complicated than a liquid starter. To my surprise, it's quite the other way around!

Have you ever tried Floyd's cinnamon oatmeal raisin bread as a sourdough? It's so good as is I almost hate to mess with it. But I'm curious - eventually I might try it. I did sub in 214 grams of starter when I made it, but just counted it as flour and water - didn't use it for leavening.

Hi all,

I am now in the process of making a Glezer-style sourdough following the diary in her book, A Blessing of Bread (what a great book!).

This morning (Monday morning), my starter finally showed some signs of expansion; it had actually doubled or so in height since feeding it on Saturday evening. I fed it and went to work. Tomorrow morning (in about 6 hours...) I am supposed to feed it, but it doesn't look anywhere near tripling (it actually rose less than yesterday). It doesn't look like it's risen to its maximum either, although over the past few hours it did not seem to rise at all.   

 So... Should I feed it tomorrow morning, or wait until tomorrow evening (or more) before the next feeding? (Hopefully I would get an answer before feeding time...)

Thanks,

Boaz 

Well, I hung on to Glezer's schedule, but things don't look too well, yet. Today is Wednesday, and it rose only so very slightly (not even doubled!) in 12 hours. Still, according to Glezer's schedule, today I am supposed to feed it only 12 hours or so after the last feeding, and use only 15 grams of the sourdough. So that is what I did. I do hope it picks up soon!

Could the problem be that I am using AP flour instead of bread flour? (I use King Arthur brand).

Do you have any suggestions on what I should do? Should I feed it every 12 hours or every 24 hours? Should I get it to liquid state again for a few days? Should I feed it some rye flour or WW? Should I increase the amount of sourdough to be 30 grams (or more) per refreshment? 

 I have been using the recipe at the top of this thread.  I have done this step

The starter should have risen quickly.  It is now time to convert it into a stiff starter.  In a small bowl, dissolve a scant 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) starter (discard the rest) in 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water, then add 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour and knead this soft dough.  Place it in a clean jar or lidded container, seal it, and let it ferment.

three times already.  My starter does not seem to want to double, let alone triple.   The temp in my kitchen is in the mid 70s (F) so cold does not seem to be the trouble.

Any suggestions??

koolmom

hey im a bit bias but i have a preferance to whole wheat starters there is nothing wrong with rye, actually i would prefer a rye starter but so expensive in my area around 5-6$ a kilogram (well 225 pesos in my currency) will this starter work like that? i have made a whole wheat batter starter before but got the orange and mold. My second one was bad! it was somehow turned into a vinegar mother flour culture.and my third one a stiff starter somehow got moldy and just threw it out today(better safe than sorry) it was never refrigerated it was left on the counter because i bake every 3 days with a tiny loaf for my tiny toaster oven a (300 gram flour loaf, 200g water, starter, salt) i am wondering can i use this to make a new starter i need a strong starter because my last starter came to life ne next day when i made it.

Hi forum,  

my 4x refreshed starter looks like the size of the third photo from Zolablue. It's doubleI, but not tripled. Do I just wait longer, refresh again, or start over? 

Thanks

Hello Deva

You'll find the answer to your query in another contribution  Zolablue made to this very thread, reporting back on her direct contact with Maggie Glezer:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2390/firm-starter-glezer-recipe#comment-15951

While you wait patiently for your starter to get established, perhaps you can enjoy reading right through this long thread. The archives here on TFL hold such a wealth of useful information. When it comes to starters there are certainly lots of different opinions, it can be a bit confusing when you are new to this, but you'll soon learn what works best for both you and and your starter.

Robyn,

Thanks for the link.  I've been waiting for collapse and it seems to me its happening, but maybe I'll wait a little longer.  My currnent starter is tripled in 36hours.  I've never seen a quadruple before feeding it.  I'll try waiting....again.  Patience is a learned virtue for me.