Why is an open crumb desired?

It might have something to do with 'crunch appeal', but I've never really known.  I, personally, prefer a bread, especially sandwich bread, to be not quite so leaky.

David--

I think open crumb is a factor in mouthfeel.  The combination of strong gluten bubbles and air has a particular feel some people enjoy.  I suppose these people also enjoy honey in their laps. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

My personal belief is that a bread full of large air pockets and little else is sub-optimal.  I prefer holeyness in moderation.

Perhaps the quest has to do partly with the love of questing.  Everyone wants to achieve something.

Good question.

Glenn 

Irregular holes is probably what people are going for when they say "holey grail", not necessarily simply big holes. It's the dynamic and range of holes that gives you that soft and full mouthfeel. Many bakers would probably consider only big holes to be something of a problem, albiet hardly a terrible one.

Even then, what you put on bread matters. Ciabatta makes fantastic sandwiches when sliced length-wise; the crust seals in the juices and keeps them off your shirt. Other times the bread is suited for dips, slices of cheese or meat, or butter. In other words, bread isn't always for sandwiches and there's certainly space for dense yet soft sandwich bread. Pain de Mie and rye comes to mind.

I have not entirely understood this myself. 

I believe that, while an extremely open crumb becomes impractical when it comes to the actual eating, because such a thing is hard to accomplish it has a certain appeal.

I've seen some lovely looking breads around here with such a crumb, but when it gets down to it, I wouldn't really want to eat those very open breads, aside from as a novelty.

And I get the feeling that in reality it's not so simple as "the more open the better", but rather in the "artisan" baking community generally a more open crumb than the average bread is preferred, simply.

"Open" is a matter of degree, with pan de mie at one end of the continuum, and something like ciabatta at the other.

All other things being equal, open crumb stems from higher hydration, and that does have an impact on mouth feel - a cool sensation - and shelf life. Higher hydration breads also seem to have better tolerance for freezing, at least that's my impression.

Prof. Calvel also related the open crumb he desired in baguettes to chewiness, which he liked. Certainly, most breads with more even, dense crumb, like pan de mie, have a "soft" crumb, while breads with more open crumb tend to be chewy. Obviously, the flour used and enrichments have an impact on this variable.

From the commercial baker's perspective, I think there are two considerations: One is customer demand. The other is cost. Flour costs more than water. If bread is sold either by weight or by the piece, a more highly hydrated dough is less costly to produce.

Personally, I don't have a consistent preference. I like lots of different kinds of bread. Some have a very open crumb, and some don't. 

That's my $0.02 on the subject.

David

you accept the premise that an open crumb is about "getting the fermentation right" (and I'll accept the word of those who tell me this) the open crumb in a lean bread is an indication that you have gotten the maximum flavor from the fermentation process (which, presumably, is what we want to do.)

Traditional lean breads are not meant to be loaded up with drippy ingredients on a crosswise slice - either they are eaten plain, ripped into tiny pieces and adorned with oil or butter (of course, I will pretend not to know you if you ask for butter with your baguette basket in Paris), or sliced in such a way (think lengthwise - like a tartine from a bagette) that the filling will not drip.

On enriched breads where a lot of the flavor derives from other ingredients, getting maximum flavor from fermentation alone is not so important, and these breads are usually baked in pans and meant to be eaten in crosswise slices where dripping is not desired.

It is about flavor, but it is a lot about standards and traditions.  Each bread has a character (or at least it does in tradition bound bread cultures) and we strive to achieve the standard.  An open crumbed torpedo shaped lean bread ia a baguette - a tight crumbed one is a hoagie roll - different characters to the crumb - different breads.

but the bread I'm making seems a lot better when I get it.   Open crumb has not been my grail.   My grail is fermenting properly, shaping properly, slashing properly, and when/if I get all those things (with the particular high hydration sourdough I've been making) then magically I also get open crumb.   And when I fail miserably then usually the crumb ends up being pretty condensed and tight.   But that is of course for a particular type of bread.   Not high % rye for instance. 

A common complaint about "too open" crumb is lots of big holes leads to "leaks" in sandwiches  ...things like dripping mustard on your shirt.

That comes from slicing artisan breads the same direction storebought pullman loaves are sliced: vertically. Just slice the bread horizontally instead - then there'll be a crust with no holes at all between your clothes and the stainey stuff inside the sandwich. Those big holes will become like the "nooks and crannies" advertised for English muffins, rather than something out to sabotage your clothing.

(It only makes sense to me that if the bread I make is very different from the storebought stuff, lots of things about it -including the best slicing direction- will be different.)

Why no butter for my baguette basket in Paris?  There are few better things on earth than a great baguette with a thin gilding of unsalted butter.  I could swear I had that often in Paris.  Of course, that was 12 years ago so maybe I've forgotten.

What the technical "purpose" of open crumb breads might be is a mystery to me, but my open crumb ciabattas and baguettes are delightfully chewy and much tastier than my standard sandwich loaves.  To my mind, it's a badge of competence when your finished loaf has beautiful open crumb or a denser, less open crumb, and that the crumb you ended up with is the crumb you intended when you started.  Achieving a certain crumb through simple good fortune rather than personal skill in formulating a bread dough and handling it properly is not a sign of skill.  Purposefully obtaining the crumb you want  -  that's skill.

First of all, not all lean breads ask for the same degree of "open-ness" in the crumb. For instance, a country loaf would have less and smaller holes than a baguette. Why? it's in the shape. A baguette is thin and long, which means it has a lot more crust than a round country loaf (much more and harder crust than a sandwich loaf). In fact, in each bite, you would have a mouthful of hard crust, in that case if you have a hard crust AND a solid crumb, what's your mouth feel? Solid and chewy and tough. On the other hand, if your baguette has a lot of holes, then there's a great contrast between hard/crispy/chewy crust and airy crumb, which leads to a "light and balanced" eating experience. The same thing applies for ciabatta, higher ratio of crust, crumb needs to be more open to make the eating experience balanced. This is easy to prove: I have baked many "failed" baguettes with solid crumb, it simply taste worse than the holier ones - in terms of texture only. Howeve for country loaves, some bites would be crumb only, so yes, the holes can be smaller and less. With a huge miche, most bites probably would be crumb only, therefore miches tend to be even denser.

Secondly, airy crumb (different degree in different lean breads as established above) means two things to me: proper fermentation which leads to bigger volume in the final breads, AND less kneading which leads to less even crumb. Both "proper fermentation" and "less kneading" contribute to more flavor. I frequently bake Asian style sandwich breads that requires intensive kneading which leads to a crumb that almost has no pores, not to mention holes. Let me tell you, those breads NEED to be enriched in order to have good flavor (or any flavor). With hearth breads that only has flour, water, and salt, you dont' want to knead that much, and you do want it to grow higher (unless you think hocky pucks taste better) and bigger, which automatically leads to more holes by simple physics.

Lastly, I do think one can only claim "I prefer breads with no holes" or "I think open crumb is unnecessary" IF one can achieve hole-y and unhole-y crumb reliably, therefore has compared different textures consistently. I am not that skillful. When I get open crumb, the breads taste better than the ones that has solid crumb, so open crumb is indeed holy grail to me FOR HEARTH LEAN BREADS. For Asian style sandiwch breads, my holy grail is soft, even crumb with no "pores".

I have never even thought of making a sandwich with an open crumb bread  - e.g.ciabatta. But dunking slices in a bowl of homemade pureed soup  - could eat the whole loaf myself that way !! Luckily for my waistline my husband prevents that from happening....

                     Merlie

It depends on how the bread is eaten.  I don't think all breads should be open crumbed and I don't think all breads should be tight crumbed.  What I do think is that one should have the ability to be able to make both and all the variations in between.   Anytime one chooses only one type of crumb to make, a whole world of other crumbs is left unexplored. 

I have bitten into some very fine 60% rye breads, soft like a cake but compact enough to almost call gummy, yet the mouth feel was like bread flavored cheese cake and fell apart with no wadding or toughness.  It could hold up under cold butter spreading stress and yet was no effort to bite off.  Made a great open sandwich and also one could wave it in the air to stress a point in conversation.  Wonderful!

Mini

I just made a 100% spelt bread with an "open crumb" - due to my inattention when mixing a larger batch in my 20-quart Hobart.

The dough was too wet, making not only handling a pain in the butt, but, also, the breads spread in the oven, and stuck together.  And the larger pores made cutting the bread more difficult, the slices broke easily.

At least the bread tasted good.

Karin

I don't think that a holey crumb is a goal in itself - and of course, to begin with, we're talking about breads that characteristically have an open crumb. I very much agree with Proth5 that each loaf of bread should be about balance - trying to coax the maximum out of your conditions and ingredients while trying to achieve an overall balance within the profile of your bread. Then of course, you have the personal preference factor.

Personally I like the gelatinisation, the glistening ring around the holes. I even hold it against the light to admire them (yes pardon my kooky ways). I feel they are sweeter and I relish those bits, esp when combined with some boldly baked crust, yum.. And people who complain abt leaky sandwiches, there's a reason we have a variety of breads. For a variety of accompaniments and eating styles. A pain de mie dipped in olive oil? Not quite, but a ciabatta, that's a different story :)

And I'll back proth on the no butter policy in paris. Some hotels may serve you butter (probably sick of people asking) but as a rule, the waiter may fetch you some if you ask but you don't want to know what they're muttering under their breath:) I think butter with bread is an anglo-saxon thing.

Well all I can say on this subject is that you know you're a bread freak when this long thread of conversation over open crumb absolutely fascinates you on a Monday morning!  Thanks for the discussion eveyone.  it has long been a question I have had.  Although it has not been answered definitively, I still enjoyed the stimulating conversation.

I like a more open crumb bread with crispy crust (baugettes comes to mind) because I can't stand the feel of a wad of bread in my mouth, trying to chew! Unfortunately, I tend to heave when that happens, and that isn't something one wants to do in company. My mother dispaired of me, because I didn't like a thick slab of bread spread with peanut butter (double the heave reflex) she was often frustrated with me, when I requested thinner and thinner slices of bread, toasted without anything but a bit of butter on it, and make that a bit, I wasn't one for butter either, liked it, just didn't tolerate it too well. At least not on cold slabs of bread.

With me, its all about how it feels in my mouth and the reflex actions of my tummy when it doesn't feel right!

However I have read the disscussion with interest, and can see that its really dependant on the type of bread being made, so shall try even harder to get the whole process down right, and produce some lovely breads, that I enjoy, the ones with more open crumb, although a good rye bread is also something to be enjoyed, but not in huge thick slabs. More like very nice thin slices, with good stuff, pastrami, sourkraut, and pickles comes to mind.

I tried almond butter from the health food store, tastes good, but I simply cannot eat it, gave it to DH, its something to do with the texture I think, because I can eat peanut butter in cookies, but not off the spoon (mom and brother's favourite way) or on bread. I can eat roasted peanuts, peanut filled candies (chicken bones, and crispy crunch chocolate bars the filling is crunchy) and eatmore bars which are a sort of thick gooey dark bar with chunks of peanuts throughout it.

I was always a pickey eater and a trial to my poor mother who tried to feed me the best she could with limited money, but I'd rather eat beans than peanut butter and bread.

in case there's any misunderstanding, not suggesting for a second that there's no bread & butter to be had in France. what else did i eat every morning... And yes, the memory of cultured butter.... What i meant was in restaurants, the bread basket (if there is one) is not usually accompanied by butter.

actually when the bread is good, i eat it plain. It yields different tastes with every chew, and it changes with each day too. I find that butter, as much as i love love love that stuff, sometimes gets in the way.

A more open crumb means fewer calories!!!  And when you toast the bread, you get more crispy dark edges, and thus more flavor, than a closed crumb bread.

bnom, if I have a freshly baked, crusty bread with big holes I eat the double amount - with butter!

Karin

I am trying to get a larger crumb on my bread. Most of the recipes I am finding that claim to have a larger crumb have a higher hydration and the folding technique is used. Do I need to use the folding technique to get results or can I use my mixer?  Thank you so much for help!

By "larger crumb" I take it you want a more open crumb, or did you want more volume?

"Do I need to use the folding technique to get results or can I use my mixer?"

Use both, Mixer for the dough, folding for the bulk rise.    Did you want to deflate your dough with the mixer?  (50 grey shades of dough?) 

What kind of yeast or how is the loaf being raised?  

Oh, and some flours don't lend themselves to open crumbiness.   What flours are you baking with?  

Yes, more often than not, hydration is raised and less, more gentle gas deflation is employed between rises.  :)