October 30, 2010 - 6:45am
Sourdough Bread with more tang using Sour Salt?
I have a very active starter that I purchased from KA Flour. It lives in the fridge until I'm ready to bake but always rises quickly when I bring it out and feed it. It makes great bread just not very sour. I have been doing some reading here on how to make breads more sour and one of the things I'm going to try is to just let the starter live on the counter and feed daily and see if that helps but I've also come across a suggestion to use sour salt to get a more sour flavor. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does it make for a more sour bread?
Thanks!
Trish
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Sour salt has citric acid in it, if I remember correctly.
Salt is a yeast killer.I wouldn't add it to a starter and you may notice a performance difference when it is added to the dough at high levels. I don't think the citric acid level will bother the yeast much.
My brother in law makes the most sour whole wheat bread and what he does is a LONG rise (about 12-15 hours) on the counter in a house with a temp anywhere from 65F-75 F. Much too sour for my taste.
There are numerous threads on the forum about increasing the sour. Use the search to find them.
I have read some of the threads on making bread more sour. I know that retarding bread increases flavor but I've always done that in the fridge. Maybe I'll try the long rise on the counter. I'm ready to experiment. I also just got some San Francisco Sourdough Starter from Sourdough International. I am going to get that started this week-end.
"Sour salt" isn't really "salt", per se. It's citric acid in crystalline form.
I've never tried it but an experiment might be worth the time to find out what it'll do.
KAF sells products containing citric acid as a dough conditioner, too, so I wouldn't think it would be harmful to the yeast if added judiciously.
Sour salt is also great for making Jewish style beet borscht, and you might be lucky enough to find it in the kosher food products aisle of your store made by Rokeach. I used to like to suck on the crystals when my mom made borscht when I was a kid. Kind of lemony.
My husband brought me home some from the winery, but I haven't tried using it yet.
KAF sells flours with ASCORBIC acid added as a dough strengthener, I don't think they use citric acid.
By adding sour salt to your sourdough, you are just artificially lowering the pH, which is just as bad as making a dough and pouring in some vinegar. Although they are different acids and will act and taste differently, its the same idea. You are adding an acid to make the sour more sour, but in the end, it's just an unneeded sourness.
I AM looking for a tangier flavor which I think is ok but I will work at it using levains and rising times. I just gets frustrating sometimes.
Trish
Hi Trish,
Fancine's comments have scientific merit. See this description of the Detmold 3 stage process.
Bah! captch'd again. This is getting old.
cheers,
gary
I've had my starter for 10 years. I mostly keep in the fridge but for the last month have been making buttermilk english muffins every other day, so the starter has lived and been feed daily on my countertop for over 4 weeks now. I feed it a 1-to-2-to-2 ratio (starter-water-flour) so I don't have to feed as often. I do wait for it to double and then fall back before feeding again. I typically do a refresh with 20g-30g of starter to keep from having to toss copious amounts of starter each time. The starter is quite active at this point; just not sour.
My starter is not, and has never been, sour, nor does it have any "tang" or sour notes to it. It is quite frustrating really. I've tried using A LOT less in a recipe as some posts say less starter makes for more sourness or tang. That has not been my experience either. I've tried adding a bit of white vinegar; still no more sour after another couple of feedings.
I do feed my starter the white KA bread flour instead of whole wheat or rye. I don't know if that would help. I may go down that road next.
Replacing the water with buttermilk in my english muffin recipe does give the muffins a bit of "tanginess"; I suspect that is almost entirely due to the buttermilk.
You might wish to start a new one. Have you tried building and using a larger percentage of levain in the final dough? Hamelman's recipes build a nice pleasant tang. The high hydration encourages lactic acid and because perceived tang is more to do with TTA instead of how acidic it is fermenting a higher percentage of levain (which is usually fermented to a point which is further along than a final dough) perhaps this will help. You can also refrigerate the final proof.
I recommend a nice simple recipe like Hamelman's Vermont where you can incorporate both methods.
I'm very curious to know the difference. Can you expand on that?
(In the past, I've understood that although they're different acids with different properties in general, in the specific context of bread dough they were pretty much interchangeable. I still have a lot to learn...)
Well for one, ascorbic acid completely dissipates in the oven and tightens the gluten structure. I'm sure they all do, though. Citric acid might remain after the dough is baked, but lactic acid and acetic acid (the two acids present in a natural sourdough) both have varying tastes! Lactic has a smooth finish, like yogurt. While, on the other size, acetic acid [vinegar is acetic] is very dominating and is mainly the first sour flavor that you taste.
Hope that helps, although I don't know a whole lot. I'm still learning too.
Drawing upon brewing experience and study, ascorbic acid can be added in greater amounts than citric before the citrus or lemony flavor becomes obvious. My recently bred sourdough was begun with about a half teaspoon of lemon juice (which worked very well). The lemon flavor lasted through many triplings.
Both acids are used in home-brewing as anti-oxidants, preservatives, if you will.
Gad! The captcha goblin is on my case lately.
cheers,
gary
Trish,
I started making my own bread just about 3 years ago and I tried several different recipes, several different starters, I added vitamin C powder, vinegar, and several other suggestions attempting to acquire the perfect sour tang taste in my bread. Not to mention adding two book shelves of bread baking books. And in the end someone on this board had mentioned a little pamphlet by Sara Pitzer that was first published by Storey Publishing in 1980; titled "Baking with Sourdough." A Storey Country Wisdom Bulletin. I'm not too sure if this little bulletin is still published; however, I purchased a used copy from Amazon.com.
I tried her recipe for Sourdough White Bread Plus. The directions stipulate to take the first 3 ingredients; 1 cup Sourdough Starter, 1 1/4 Unbleached White Flour, and, 1 cup Warm Water mix together in large bowl, cover loosely and allow to ferment for 10 to 24 hours. I tried this recipe and Bingo; I had finally discovered the secret to acquiring that perfect tang that I was looking for in my bread. Now, I always start with a pre-ferment, and use a similar ratio of flour/starter/water from each recipe to make up the preferment. In this recipe the preferment used, called for about 1/3 of the total flour weight used in the recipe and 100% of the starter & water.
Depending on how tangy you want your bread to taste, you can make one loaf using the full 24hr preferment and then alternatively cut your preferment time back if that timeline creates too much tang. If you can still find the Sara Pitzer "Baking with Sourdough" bulletin it has some great tips and it is a quick read, [24 pages].
I hope this helps,
Cheers,
Francine
Francine:
I went to Amazon.com right after I read your comment and to my delight the pamphlet is back in print and only $3.95 with free shipping for prime members. I ordered right away and can't wait to read it. Thanks for the tip!
Trish
Trish,
I hope you enjoy it; page 2, second paragraph, and my light bulbs started going off. I'm not sure if the ratio of ingredients mixed into the preferment in relationship to the overall recipe makes a difference or not; that is just the way that I incorporated pre-fermenting to all the rest of my recipes and it has worked out well for me; I like that tangy sourdough flavor too.
I have a couple of Mark's [he is a professional baker] recipes, and he uses a preferment in one of the recipes he sent me. Hopefully, he will read this thread and chime in here. I would like to know if it makes any difference if the ratio portion of flour that one uses to make the dough has any bearing on the taste or texture of the bread? As you can tell I'm still going through the learning process.
Mark, if you chime in on this thread I will buy your two new video's. <grin>
Cheers,
Francine
Hi Trish
Noticed that you have purchased San Francisco (SF) Sourdough Starter. A few years ago I attended the San Francisco Baking Institute and learned that SF starter has a specific bacteria called San Franciscus Bacillus (spelling) isolated by at Berkley a number of years ago. This bacteria generally only exists in the SF Bay area - so my understanding is that when starter is removed from that (or any) locality it takes on the airorne bacteria properties that exist in the locality where it is newly located.
At the time I was in southeast Alaska in a maritime environment and the starter I took home did change over time.
KBK
I noticed something in the last loaves I baked that I thought might interest you, Trish, if you're still searching for a solution to add more sour flavor to your bread.
I like adding a bit of raw sugar to my loaves. It doesn't tend to impact the final flavor much that I can tell, except to make the crust a bit darker from caramelization.
Anyway, last weekend I ran out of raw sugar the morning I planned on using my starter to make bread. Instead of using white sugar, I substituted molasses. The result was a pretty big. It did turn a bit brown, however, and was a bit slack after I had waited the normal proofing time. I'm certain that given less proofing time it would be fine.
Anyway, for about 40 ounces of bread dough, I used about .6 ounces of molasses.
I am interested in buying sara's "Baking with sourdough "but like to hear your reviews about it.
Thanks
Ms. Pitzer's information is archaic - after all, her bulletin is 30 years old. She writes about the difficulties of "trapping" wild yeast in the winter (as if it was a wolverine) and her first recipe for a culture includes salt.
I guess if you like antiques, it would be fun to have around as a nice collector's item - but it fails as a source for current information. A sourdough culture can be started any time of the year and you don't need to do any trapping: those wild yeast are present in the flour.
You can download at no charge a pretty good book on sourdough. Discussed here at TFL earlier, it was written by Teresa of Northwest Soudough
If you don't have your own sourdough starter going, use the TFL search bar to find Debra Wink's pineapple juice solution thread.
Save your three bucks and use it to buy a bag of flour instead. ;-)
Yes, Sour Salt make for a more sour bread. I have Kingarthurflour sourdough starter too. I had tried use sourdough bread with and without sour salt. I found sour salt make a different. Now I always use sour salt when I make "extra-tangy sourdough bread".
Sour Salt is also name "Citric Acid". I live in california. I got it from store of surfas. You can order surfasonline too. $11.40/2#Hope it help.
How much sour salt do you use? (perhaps expressed as a bakers percentage)
I'm rather afraid of using "too much" sour salt and winding up with loaves that taste like lemons.