Tangzhong with more than 5% flour & TZ with S & F?

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katyajini on

Typically the TZ portion is made 5% the weight of total flour and 5X that weight of water (or liquid). 

I have read that up to 10% the total weight of flour can be used in the TZ.  However the dough becomes stickier and stickier to deal with. But nowhere does it say what happens when more flour is given to the TZ? Does the bread become fluffier still? More moist? Or is 5% the happy point and there is not much return after that, or the increase in stickiness is not worth it? 

Does anyone know if there is any benefit to using more that 5% flour in the TZ?

 

The woeful part of making TZ bread is the stickiness and just how much you have to knead the dough in the mixer. I wince every time I am doing it thinking of all the oxidation going on.  I feel like my brain is getting oxidized. But I still do it because my kids want it. And got to admit, it does make some nice bread.

I just bought an online course for bread baking where the teacher makes a sourdough challah with TZ.  The recipe is hers and quite unorthodox (at least from my limited exposure). She makes a roux from 7.5% of the total flour and 3X that weight of liquid. Then squishes all ings (flour, starter, roux, eggs, butter, salt, honey etc) together and then S&F 5 or 6 times during bulk ferment and that's it. NO exhaustive kneading. I have not made this recipe but the picture of the finished challah is amazing. It's very soft and fluffy and also looks moist.  

I really wonder, do you get the full potential of what TZ brings to a loaf of bread without the kneading? Or maybe something else is happening here in her recipe?

Has anyone tried TZ with S&F or minimal kneading and does it still work?

Thank you so much for your comments!

The traditional 5% of the flour and 5x it's weight taken from the total water. Haven't noticed too much difference in the handling of the dough while developing the gluten through stretch and folds. But it's been a while since I've done a tangzhong and never done one with enriched breads.

I have used tangzhong and I have baked Gluten Free (GF). I believe the answer to your question lies in my limited experience with GF baking.

GF flour, by nature, is starchy and as it bakes, forms a gel that gets support from things like xanthan gum or psyllium instead of gluten. This is the same function of the tangzhong-it forms a nice starchy gel to form the bubble walls.  what happens in GF baking if you have a flour that is too much starch(potato starch,corn starch,tapioca flour,etc) and not enough whole grain (brown rice flour, white rice flour, sorghum, millet, teff,etc), you get a damp, gummy loaf. It would be the same if you had too much tangzhong.

So 5% is the sweet spot. A little more or less is ok but not much more. As for the percentage of water-I believe you can use slightly less than 5x the wt of the flour but you can always use more- as long as it works on the recipe to produce the hydration you are hoping for. You still have to cook the flour and make a gel but it can be a looser gel than the 5x would give you.

Have fun!

I make an enriched yeast-leavened sandwich bread using tangzhong and have compared stretch and fold with traditional kneading. With kneading, the dough turns out very silky and uniform, but stretch and fold gives a somewhat lumpy texture. However, I get a good windowpane in both cases and I can't detect any clear difference after baking.

For reference, my recipe is below. It's inspired by several sources, including some recipes from this forum - see the links below.

Ingredients 

Poolish

  • 180 g cold water
  • 180 g bread flour
  • 0.5 g active dry yeast

Tangzhong

  • 36 g all purpose flour
  • 180 g water

Bread

  • All of tanzhong and poolish
  • 432 g bread flour
  • 65 g tepid water
  • ~6.5 g active dry yeast (the rest of the packet used for the preferment)
  • 60 g sugar
  • 50 g vegetable oil
  • 1.25 tsp salt

Steps

Poolish (~18 hours before making bread)

  1. Mix flour and yeast
  2. Mix in water until no dry flour visible
  3. Cover and let sit at room temperature for about 18 hours

Tangzhong (At least 1 hour before making bread)

  1. Mix flour and water in a mug. Stir well.
  2. Microwave on high for 30 s, then stir well.
  3. Microwave for 20 s more, then stir again.
  4. Repeat microwaving (5-10 s) and stirring until mixture has thickened to a paste and temperature is ~65 degC
  5. Allow to cool to 40 degC or lower (so it doesn't kill the yeast). Refrigerator is fine.

Bread

  1. Mix poolish and tangzhong. Add to flour in large bowl.
  2. Mix with spoon/fork/spatula until shaggy and as much of the dry flour has been incorporated as possible. Cover and let sit for 20-60 min autolyse.
  3. 15 mins before autolyse is done, warm water, dissolve about a tbsp of sugar in it, and add the yeast. Stir until yeast granules are dissolved.
  4. Add yeast to flour mixture and incorporate slightly. Sprinkle over remaining sugar and salt and mix with spatula until dough ball just comes together.
  5. Pincer mix 4-5x (e.g. see the video by Ken Forkish).
  6. Refrigerate, covered, stretching and folding every 20-30 mins until good windowpane, probably 4-6 times. Let stand out of the refrigerator before each stretch and fold for a few mins to prevent dough getting too cold. Before second or third stretch and fold, add oil and pincer mix or knead until incorporated.
  7. Keep refrigerated overnight.
  8. Next morning, take out of refrigerator and allow to come to room temperature for ~1 hr
  9. Sprinkle flour around edge of dough ball and work down underneath with floured hands. Turn out onto floured surface.
  10. Poke hole in center to make doughnut, then cut once and unwrap into log.
  11. Divide into three equal parts, knead slightly to remove gases and form into tight balls. Rest covered in plastic wrap for 5 mins
  12. For each ball, roll out into rectangle, flip over, roll again, then fold short sides into the middle, overlapping slightly, and then roll up perpendicular to these folds.
  13. Rotate 90 degrees and repeat above rolling out, folding and rolling up. Place into well greased loaf pan. See video here for demo of rolling and folding.
  14. Cover in plastic wrap (leaving it slack so it has room to expand) and put in a warm place until risen about an inch over the top of the pan (1-2 hrs). It’s okay to put in the fridge for a few hours if you want to slow it down.
  15. Preheat oven to 350 degF. When loaf ready, bake ~30 mins on shelf in middle slot, rotating once halfway through.
  16. Turn out onto cooling rack as soon as it comes free from pan.

Inspirations

 Thank you so much Lechem, clazar123 and alpaca. This information is good. I definitely have to try TZ with S & F and see for myself!

alpca: it is so good of you to share your own recipe.  I would not have thought of combining TZ with poolish, what a good idea. What was the essential characteristic of your pan loaf? My guess would be the TZ character dominates but how does the poolish affect a pan loaf's texture?  I have never made or seen a pan loaf with poolish.  How does it turn out? On my list, your recipe.

Such a coincidence.  I just made my favorite straight dough challah but adapted the recipe to have TZ and a small amount of old stiff sourdough starter that had been in the fridge, kind of like a biga (while keeping quantities of all ings exactly the same).  The challah recipe was delicious but a little dense and would dry out too soon.  I was stunned by how great a piece of bread the two changes made. There was enormous oven spring, soft, fluffy, but not cottony, with a little chew and enormous flavor and did not dry out over 7 days. If it is even possible, tasted better next day.

So great to see people creating these recipes. Thanks for sharing your experience!

 

I have never made this without poolish, so I can't say for sure, but I suspect it won't have much effect on the final texture, assuming the overall hydration is kept the same. I make it with a poolish for the flavor. My simplistic interpretation is that the TZ affects the texture and the poolish impacts the flavor.

Thank you alpaca.

Yes I think the poolish will affect the flavor.  A poolish is supposed to affect texture too, but when combined with another technique such as here who knows? I do want to try this out. Thanks for the recipe.