Easy sourdough deli rye
Haven't posted anything for a while, thought to rectify with this quick and easy recipe for sourdough deli rye bread.
Here is the formula: https://fgbc.dk/2rfu
Process is simple. Refresh a rye starter, so you have enough (I keep mine in the fridge, and I fed it in the morning with warm water and it was ready in the afternoon), keep it at 28C. Just before going to sleep, make a somewhat stiff rye preferment with all of the rye flour for the bake, keep at 28C for around 8-9 hours - it should grow significantly, get spongy, acquire prominent sour smell. In the morning mix the final dough, using warm water. I used a mix of 1:1 Ruchmehl (Swiss very high extraction flour) and white bread flour for the non-rye portion. It should be on the stiffer side, around 70% hydration in my case. Keep the dough warm (28-30C), for me bulk was done in under 2 hours! It grows quite a lot and quite quickly. I gave it a couple of sets of folds in that time to strengthen the dough.
Turn out the dough, divide into portions, preshape. Leave for 20 min, then shape. The dough doesn't handle very tight shaping, the prettier of the two breads was just shaped by flattening of the preshaped boule, folding and then rolling like baguettes to give a nice tapered shape.
Final proof on a couche, time would depend on the temperature, I gave them around 1 hr and then baked the first one with steam (20 with, then until done without), while the second one was moved to the balcony with around 0C there. I think the second one was proofed a little better, so perhaps I jumped the gun with the first one somewhat. Not sure baking with steam was the right choice, but that's up to the baker. I also applied a cornstarch glaze when taking them out of the oven.
I am no expert on what deli rye bread tastes like, but this is the taste I remember from the community bake a couple of years ago, and from my few encounters with this style of bread "in the wild" - except the crust, I guess it shouldn't be baked with steam?
Anyway, a very quick recipe (bread can be ready for lunch, just need to start the preferment) with convenient easy to use and remember gram measurements!
Comments
Beautiful crumb Ilya. The deli rye from the CB, Eric’s Rye was baked with steam and had the corn starch glaze. In fact applying the corn starch glaze before and after baking worked quite well and gives the crust a beautiful shiny appearance.
I love how quick this type of rye can be to make, great when you’re running out of bread. Try it with rehydrated onions using the water to make the dough as well as the onions of course. That is my favourite version of deli rye.
Benny
Thank you Benny!
Yeah I've read a few times around here about the onion rye, but I don't have any dehydrated onions...
I'm looking forward to trying this, Ilya. Probably sometime next week. My partner doesn't particularly relish the dank & spicy qualities of the ryes I like. Perhaps this one can be a step on the journey.
Rob
PS: I gotta bake something over the weekend to use with fondue. I was thinking of a part whole wheat baguette. If you have any suggestions, send them my way.
And you will be able to judge how similar this is to a real NY deli rye! Very curious to hear your results and feedback. Just FYI, I expect the temperature is quite important for the quick process that worked for me. When mixing the preferment and the dough I didn't measure the resulting temperature (I should have...), but it felt obviously warm to the touch, so I'd guess it was at least around 30C.
For fondue... Interesting question. What is your partner's family saying about it?
I think if you are cutting it up anyway, making baguettes is a bit of an overkill from the point of view of the work needed. You need airy bread to catch a lot of cheese, but not too open, so it doesn't fall apart easily. And indeed I guess here it would be made with something like high extraction wheat flour (Ruchmehl? not sure, it seems a bit lighter than that, but I might be wrong), so I guess a mix of white and whole grain wheat would be a good approximation - I guess high extraction flour is not the easiest to get in the US.
Maybe something like a thin batard-style loaf, proofed on a couche? I recently quite like doing that, easy and you can make longer and more uniform thickness, with a good crust to crumb ratio, but less tricky than baguettes (bigger loaves, so need to shape only one or two, not as long, so easier to move around, etc...)
one funny not-so-secret about my city is that most commercial NY Deli Rye sucks (the NY Times recently castigated Katz's Deli because the pastrami is so hogh quality & the bread so lame.)
Certainly, I will let you know how your recipe stacks up against the august competition.
Thanks for your thoughts regarding what to bake for fondue. I've got a bag of 1/2 white/1/2 whole wheat from a local producer &, following your advice, I'll probably make a batard with that, most likely with yeast bc it would be sacrilege to have the bread flavor overwhelm the cheese.
Cheers.
PS: I've also got a 3-stage levain 100% spelt thing I've started ... so I've got alot of bread in the queue. It's bread overkill here, in fact.
what an incredible bread, Ilya!!!! And super-easy to make! The spicy flavor stays in your mouth long after you've eaten a piece. It puts to shame pretty much all of the deli rye produced in NYC.
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I approximated your 1:1 ruchmehl/weissmehl blend with 40% white whole wheat and 60% white all-purpose flour. Also, as is my norm, I dropped the salt by 1/4. As you can see, the loaf developed the trademark crackling and carmelizing of a good rye -- so the cornstarch glaze seemed unnecessary. I baked it at 232C in a dutch oven (I broke down and bought an oblong one) -- 20 minutes with the lid on, 20 minutes with the lid off, 4 minutes removed from the dutch oven to firm up the sides.
Most of the NYC deli ryes probably use no whole wheat flour -- or if they do, far less than 40%. Also, they're likely juiced with sugar and yeast. I wouldn't do that. But dialing back on the whole wheat might give the finished loaf a slightly higher profile and make the crumb a tiny bit less dense ... so when I bake this again, I might try dropping the final dough blend to 25% whole wheat.
But I don't want to mess with the flavor!
It's fantastic.
Rob
PS: I made the fondue bread with a 50/50 whole wheat/white blend, using the Bouabsa baguette process (mix with a tiny bit of yeast, folds on the counter for an hour, then 24 hours in the fridge). Due to my schedule, I skimped on the shaping and proofing so they spread a little more than I wanted. But the wheatier flavor and texture worked really really well with the melted cheese and my partner -- who, even if she's totally experimental as an artist, is a total traditionalist when it comes to Swiss food -- heartily approved. Thanks for your advice!
Hi Rob, so glad that you like this bread! Your loaf looks great.
An enclosed space for baking makes all the difference in a gas oven for me. My roaster is quite big, so I noticed the bread benefits a lot from adding a couple of ice cubes too for extra steam.
You don't think they use first clear flour? I thought that was the typical wheat component for deli rye... But anyway, I think for the flavour it doesn't matter so much here what exact composition is used for the wheat portion, within reason: with nicely prefermented rye and caraway seeds, those should be the dominant flavours. But for sure the texture can be changed, and more white flour would make a lighter and airier loaf, as you are planning to try next time.
Glad my thoughts on the bread for fondue were helpful! I think purely white bread would be completely lost with the cheese, and the texture might end up being too light and airy to support a good amount of the cheese :) Did you shape them as baguettes or something different?
You're undoubtedly right, Ilya. The best deli ryes were probably made with first clear. I can remember when I was a little kid, my parents used to get sliced rye from a local bakery that was very much like yours in flavor and texture.
But by the time I was a teenager, that bakery had closed. Commercial deli rye took over ... lighter, sweeter with very little bite except for the caraway seeds. The first deli rye I tried to make was from Martha Rose Schulman's recipe (https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1018536-new-york-deli-style-rye-bread -- tho I made a slightly different version I can no longer find on the internet.) It's good -- but, as you can see from the recipe, more like the commercial breads of my teen years than the old-school deli ryes.
As for the bread for fondue: I used the baguette process but made two big batards, to increase the innards and decrease the crust. As you can see,
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Cheers!
Rob
oops, correction:
the first deli rye I made was not the one I linked to, which was a Stanley Ginsberg variety, but one from Rose Levy Beranbaum (and not Martha Rose Shulman): vhttps://www.latimes.com/recipe/real-jewish-rye-bread. Same idea, though: a sweetened modern commercial deli rye.
I can't access your first link unfortunately... But looking at the second, I think the main issue is not using sourdough! I assume the main flavour other than caraway comes from prefermenting the rye flour with a starter.
But I also had the thought to add some malt extract to mine... I think I simply forgot it in the end. I wouldn't add plain sugar, but malt extract would go well. It improves the dough, and I think it helps the crust brown very nicely. I like adding a spoon of it to many breads recently, good browning in my "new" gas oven is more difficult to achieve.
true, it's not sourdough. It's also only 20% rye & the rest is white flour. It's a high-end version of commercial deli rye. I remember liking it 2 years ago. But what would I think now that I've made a Borodinsky?
Enjoy Athens!!!
Well, I mean, honestly fresh home-made bread is kinda never really bad, so you might like it even now!
Thanks! :)
👍🏼 truth
That's a nice shape, exactly what I meant for the fondue breads :) like torpedoes! I might bake some bread for fondue also, we brought some cheese mix to Athens now.
Et voila! Fantastic deli rye! This time, baked with a ratio of 24% WW / 76% white flour.
Thanks so much, Ilya!
Rob
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Such a tall loaf! Your North American flour must be very strong :) Looks great, and so happy you keep enjoying this bread, even as a Christmas bake!
My bake for the Christmas lunch tomorrow is now fermenting, was asked to make Christopsomo. Due to various unforeseen circumstances and misunderstandings, I ended up using durum flour in the preferment during the day, although as far as I know, there isn't supposed to be any in this bread. And since the oven is needed for many hours tomorrow for roasting the goat and so I have to bake it tonight, kinda had to just add a packet of yeast to the final dough. Never tried this bread before, will see how it comes out.
Roasting the goat!!!! Mmmmmmm! That's a Christmas tradition I can get behind.
Christopsomo sounds interesting. The recipes I've seen are all yeast-based. Fermentation with sourdough I'm sure will add a great zing to it -- with durum or without. And it's great that you can contribute to the meal as a guest.
Let me know how it emerges!
Happy and Merry & all that to the whole extended family!
Cheers!
Rob
I think the only times I've had goat were when visiting here. It's delicious. Similar to lamb, but maybe somehow even better? Love it.
I've looked through a few recipes and there is absolutely zero consensus how Christopsomo is made and what it contains. Very strange. But I was instructed to just make regular white bread, and add aniseed to it (which is the only constant ingredient across all recipes). Actually, more specifically, they boiled some aniseeds in water, and then I used that water and a spoonful of those boiled seeds in the bread. I also added a spoonful of olive oil, how could I not... It came out of the oven now, but I forgot to take a picture, will do tomorrow! Fingers crossed it's good. We also have one from a bakery to compare.
Same to you and all yours!
totally agreed: similar to lamb but somehow better. I've never had it plain roasted, only as part of African stews or West Indian curries, but I love it and can only imagine how delectable what you're eating might be. Enjoy.
As for your rye recipe. I made it again to give to a friend who invited us for brunch. It keeps getting better.
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Cheers!
Totally delicious goat! Such a shame it's just not really available in Western countries...
Wow I am chuffed you keep using this recipe! Hope your friend enjoyed it.
My Christopsomo worked out well, it was less anis-y than the version from the bakery and due to the fast proofing in the end the crumb texture could be nicer... But I think people were happy with it. The decoration didn't work out all, I made little braids from plain unleavened dough for the cross on top, but I made them long and trapped the ends under the dough on the sides - and during the final proof the rising of the dough totally tore the cross apart! Lesson learned for next time. Didn't take a picture of the crumb, but it was just like a basic white loaf with a slight yellow hue from the durum and a few aniseeds scattered around.
mmmmmmm! Goat! And mmmmmmm! Your bread. Yes, my friend and her daughter loved it.
Your Christopsomo looks like something I'd like to eat. And I'm sure I'm not the only one to remark the heavy symbolism involved in rising dough busting up a cross. It's a Christmas sacrilege -- and I mean that in the best possible way.
It's interesting how varied the traditions of Christopsomo are. To some people, it's a relatively simple anise bread . To others it's a Greek Pannetone. And to others it's an enriched bread with egg and sugar and all sorts of additives. I like the simple idea.
Aloha! Keep having fun.
more fondue bread.
slightly better shaping
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This recipe never fails, Ilya.
I upped the rye to 1/3 of the total flour and the rest was a combo of whole wheat, spelt, bread flour, and all purpose (aka, whatever I had at hand.)
Quick, delicious, nutritious.
Rob
Man, you version looks so good! Definitely better than mine!
I blame the Dutch Oven. I don't know how I baked without it.
That’s great Rob, you love your ryes don’t you?
Happy baking.
Benny
I got back to New York from the American Southwest craving rye, so of course I reached for your no-fail formula. For this version, I mixed rye with whole spelt & 85% extraction wheat.
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It takes a Russian in Switzerland (via Scotland) to make a true NY deli rye.
Rob
Beautiful bread Rob, and welcome back to NYC! You've been baking amazing bread using this approach, much more beautiful than what I managed in the beginning of this thread, very impressive. I am really humbled that you are so fond of this simple formula :)
I'm still working on this, Ilya, and it keeps getting more fabulous. This one's 1/3 rye, 1/3 85% extraction (aka ruchmehl aka 1st clear), 1/3 strong white (11.7% protein) with the key addition of rye malt (a tiny bit, just 1.5% of total flour) soaked for a few min in 65C water. It juices things amazingly. I think I could raise the rye percentage and still get good bloom in the oven.
Best recipe ever.
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Rob
Wow that's beautiful!
Is that active rye malt you are using?
I often add a spoonful of malt extract to any bread, I guess it would have a similar effect too!
It is active ... I buy ground pale rye malt from a home brewing supply place. Great stuff.
PS: my current plan is to be in Switzerland the first week in June.
Nice! I have diastatic barley malt, should work just as well. I'll try that at some point.
Excellent - I'll be here, let me know if you'll be able to meet up!
Beautiful Rob, you are really hitting these out of the park.
Benny
I'm not worthy, Benny, but thanks!
What are you talking about Rob, you definitely are baking some beauties, don’t sell yourself short.
Benny
45% rye -- overfermented (36 hour levain) & overhydrated (by perhaps 10%) -- no matter, it's great. Best recipe ever.
Rob
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Wow Rob, you keep baking them non stop! You've tried a whole bunch of variations by now, which one do you think is your favourite? Any suggestions how it can be improved?
I'm an addict, I guess. I was gone for most of March in the American Southwest and found the thing I missed the most was rye. Now I'm away from rye again for another few weeks. So, to satisfy my craving, I had to give myself what I was jonesing for.
I can't codify things because I have stopped writing down what I do. But here are a few thoughts:
--rye malt augments the bread by making the crumb super-creamy and adds a slight hint of sweetness. It also ensures fermentation is rapid. I'd lean toward using appropriately activated malted flour rather than malt syrup to avoid making the bread too sweet. For these bakes, I activated the malt (just 1.5% of total flour) in 65C water maybe 20 minutes before the final mix. This seemed to work well.
--I think the amount of rye in the formula could be pushed toward 40% without compromising the crumb. Also, the version I made with whole spelt instead of ruchmehl/first clear came out really tasty.
--The longer levain of the last bake -- due to a scheduling miscue -- wound up giving the bread a subtle, flavorful undertone. Given how long I fermented the levain and that there was less flour in the final mix, I bootlegged my timings, shortening the bulk to around an hour and twenty minutes and the proof to maybe 35 minutes
--with the flours I've been using, the dough generally welcomed a slightly higher hydration -- maybe 10-15 grams additional liquid. On the final bread, I mistakenly added 50 grams more. That turned out to be too much -- as it threatened to go matzoh-ish.
--To my mind, the flavor benefits from a carmelized, blistered crust.
--as is my wont, I dropped the salt by about 1/3, which I think is preferable because it allows the rye & caraway to sing on their own.
Rob
Thank you for sharing your observations Rob!
I just made a variation of this recipe. Since you liked the addition of activated malt, I went a little further and made a small scald. And also reduced the salt a little. Very nice results, like it a lot! Soft crumb and crust.
https://fgbc.dk/35vm
Hi,
Your loaf looks so good!
May I ask about the scald? Does the pinch of malt come at the end like the way rusbrot saves a spoon of malt flour to add in after the scald is mixed? I think it shortens the scald time (but I am not sure after watching his tapes).
I will use clas for the rye starter. Maybe I will go with whole wheat in the main dough. I hope I get a nice lifted up loaf as yours is!! I've never gotten a free form loaf so I will play it safe with a pan loaf.
# hrs on preferment? temp?
How many hours on the scald - 65C at 3-4 hrs??
PS thanks for putting the recipe on foodgeek-it is so easy to scale it.
You are correct re malt - first gelatinize the flour with boiling water and mix it all, then add the malt as enzyme, so it's not inactivated by the heat. You can also use a spoonful of whole grain flour instead of the malt.
For the overall process, I followed the outline from the first post here. So preferment was done overnight at 28C. And I don't have a way to keep the scald at 65 at the moment, so I just prepared it together with the preferment and wrapped it to slow down the cooling, and simply left overnight too. But 3-4 hrs at 65 should do the trick just as well, or even less.
Good luck! Please share your results, I'm curious how it works with CLAS.
Your bread looks wonderful, Ilya. Congratulations. I'm confused about the scald, though: Gelatinize all the wheat flour with boiling water for the final dough + add the malt once it cools to 65C? I'll have to try that.
Rob
Thanks, Rob!
No, I gelatinize just a little extra rye flour. Don't gelatinize all of the wheat flour, I think you won't not get edible bread in the end :) I put a link to the formula above, I just used 35g whole rye flour in the scald for two breads. Very small. I used up all the rye flour I had left, basically :)
Great clarification, Ilya. Sorry I hadn't checked the food geek formula before I wrote. I'm on the road in Gipuzkoa, in the Basque Country. The past five days I've been without mobile service hanging out with a shepherd/artisan cheese maker in the mountains. A great time, but no rye bread -- unfortunately, because I think because it would go well with this sharp cheese (the shepherd gave me some of his mountain-made smoked sheep cheese and some two-year old stuff -- and man, I'm still thinking about how good it was.)
I'm looking forward to trying your revised approach when I'm back in rye country and have some malt at my disposal.
Rob
That sounds amazing. Would love to try some of that cheese you are talking about! Any nice non-rye bread? How long are you staying there? We are going to vaguely the same part of the world for holidays next week - Porto! Expecting great food also :)
so of course I baked a deli rye
Even with a 36-hour levain, it looks & tastes great, as long as I use 1/3 strong white flour.
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Rob