Need advice on cold fermentation
Hello again, second post! I can't believe how helpful the community members have been and my loaves look so much better. Really grateful for that.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I live in a community with 15 members. That usually means I bake 12-16 loaves a week (white, white and wholemeal, 100% wholemeal..) with 4 tinned loaves on any given day. We do not have a mixer and hence, I knead most of my doughs which are usually between 2800-3200 gms. While a lot of times, I find it therapeutic, it gets quite tiring to knead such a large amount for 10-12 mins. What I do have though is time! And hence, I was wondering if I could bake these loaves with a no knead method just with folding maybe? I would also love to know more about cold fermentation as it would be ideal to mix a dough and leave it for 2-3 days to build the flavor and this way I could prep my breads in advance? Does someone have any recipes or links or posts that I could use or look into? Also, at the moment I use 1.4% yeast. Will that go down if I cold ferment and give it time? I don't know if this is logical but I get a feeling that lesser the yeast better (or healthier) the bread?
thank you!
Sahil
Try it - on a smaller batch - and see what happens. Odds are it won't change. Enjoy!
Oh, yes, there's lots of possibilities. The simplest one is illustrated in my post:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/74384/100-levain-nohandling-bread
You could combine this or most any other method with cold storage. The classic no-knead method would work fine - you keep a big pot of the dough in to refrigerator and cut off hunks as you need them. The hunks can be baked in a tin just as well as a Dutch Oven and maybe better since you don't have to worry about them holding their shape. Just scrape the blob of dough into the tin.
Even if some of these methods may start with sourdough, and that would increase the sourness with long cold storage, you can definitely use yeast instead. Just as you ask you can reduce the yeast amount if you want a long slow fermentation. You will need to experiment to find the amount that will work for your breads. I have found that 1/4 to 1/2 tsp of instant yeast - where you might have used a packet - will ferment on a schedule much like a typical sourdough.
Another thing I have done is to make a straight yeasted dough, without reducing the yeast amount, and after it had been kneaded and bulk fermented, divided it up into individual loaf sizes and refrigerated them each in their own container. I was able to use these balls over the span of about a week. They continued to rise slowly over that time so allow extra space in the containers. In my case these were small balls and I used small deli containers. In this case they were kneaded and you are trying to reduce the amount of work you have to do; I'm just suggesting that you could do the same with a no-knead dough.
So you will have to experiment to come up with a way that works for you and your group's tastes but you will be able to succeed.
Would need to know more about the methods you use (pre-ferment or direct method? Poolish or some other pre-ferment? etc).
From my own reading and conversations, primarily with bakers in Italy, the rule of thumb used for poolish pre-ferments is as follows:
For a 100% hydration preferment (same weight of flour and water) with commercial yeast you would use the following amounts of solid fresh yeast (not dry/powder form) as a baker's % for different fermentation times:
Worth keeping in mind that the longer the fermentation, the stronger (bigger W number) the flour should be.
Also, the quantity of flour in the final dough should be at least double that in the poolish (so, for 100g flour in the poolish you should then have at least 200g of additional flour in the final dough.
In Italy they give a lot of attention to the temperatures of both the water, the environment and even the flour when doing a poolish and long fermentation more generally.
The rule of thumb here is as follows:
Temperature of water = 70 - Ambient Temperature - Temperature of the flour (e.g. if ambient temp = 25C, flour temp = 24C, poolish (and final dough temp) should be 21C.
Temperature control is important, particularly in longer fermentation, in order to keep enzymatic activity under control and not weaken the gluten structure too much. In a warm climate it can be good to keep an eye on the dough temp and find ways to cool it if you want to do a long fermentation.
Hope this helps.
Hi, ReneR.
That's a lot of very good information, but I did notice that you recommended 25g of yeast to 100g flour and 100g water for the poolish, which would be 25% yeast rather than 2.5%.
Not that I ever make typos... Nope. Never. That's muh story and I'm sticking to it! 😉
Yes, well spotted! The correct amount should be 2.5g (now also corrected in the original post)
But it turned out I was wrong! 😁😁😁
Hi, Sahil!
tpassin (TomP) has some great information he's posted, once again!
As a reference point and further information I highly recommend investing in a copy of the latest version of "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day". It's available for Kindle Readers (app available to read on computer or even phone), or in hardcover for less than $20, and is centered specifically around what TomP was talking about; keeping a large quantity of no-knead dough in the fridge and cutting off a chunk, forming it and baking it for fresh bread with every meal or at least every day.
Worth every penny, and then some, not to mention simple and practical!
With a little practice, you can swap out the storebought yeast used in those recipes with sourdough starter, which I have done with fabulous results. You'll also get a better understanding of how cold fermentation affects the texture and flavor of bread, as the unused dough continues to ferment each passing day. One day's difference is very noticeable!
I was extremely skeptical when I read the title of this book, but after playing with the techniques a bit, it is one of the few books on breadmaking I recommend for those who want a better understanding of techniques and results rather than just a recipe book. It does have some interesting recipes in it, though I haven't tried many personally. I did the basic dough a couple of times, then used the techniques with my own recipes and ideas.
I'm not affiliated with the authors in any way, and do not get any kind of compensation for recommending this book; just the satisfaction of knowing I helped someone discover some of the information I use on a daily basis with the most critical taste-tester on the planet... ME! 😁😉
Enjoy!
Randem.
Many people combine this 5 minutes a day method with a few stretch-and-folds and think the results are even better.
What I'd really like to get across is that most bread-making can be very forgiving and there is a tremendous leeway for variations. It's true that for long-running processes you do need a good flour that can withstand the times involved. I've gotten good results with Gold Medal unbleached all-purpose flour. King Arthur's AP and bread flours also hold up well. There are many others, but not every flour can do it.
It's also the case that the total time of fermentation can be divided up between bulk, cold storage, and proofing stages almost as you like (and you can retard the proofing stage too). The results won't be exactly the same but they will all be good. Let me give you an example.
The post I linked to above amounted to a bread that was all bulk ferment and zero shaping and proofing. It also pushed the bulk ferment to longish times. Thinking about that, yesterday I made a free-standing sourdough loaf with 70% hydration, 20% graham flour (a form of whole wheat), and 80% bread flour, 20% sourdough. Usually I bulk ferment until the dough has doubled in size or more, sometimes even tripled. The shaped loaves will usually proof in about an hour, sometimes an hour and a half. This gives me a well-expanded loaf with a uniform crumb. a great crust, and scores that open vigorously during the bake.
This time I shaped the loaf soon after the dough in bulk ferment had started to rise. I shaped the loaf and proofed it free-standing. My aim was to ferment it as long as I could. This took more than three hours and I quit only because I got a little nervous about waiting longer. The proofed loaf was much larger than I usually get. After baking the loaf was light and airy, it hadn't collapsed but the scores didn't expand as much as usual (just as I expected), the crumb was more irregular than usual (which I also expected), and the crust was very good too.
My point here, probably pretty obvious by now, is that I took a bread that is an old standby for me and changed its process about as much as could be done (except for cold storage, of course), and still I got a terrific loaf.
In other variations of this bread I have refrigerated the dough overnight at the end of bulk ferment. The bread comes out about the same except it has a more complex flavor.
So don't fear making changes. You might not want to make big changes to all four of your daily loaves at first but otherwise go ahead and you will find a way that will work well for you.
TomP
When you first are adding all your ingredients do a fold in the bowl going around enough so no dry particles. Cover and rest 30 min. Do one more go round approx 10-15 folds and get under the dough with a large rubber spatula or wooden spoon to get it turned on itself. Rest 15-30 mini. Put dough out on lightly wet counter pat to a 1” thickness then letter fold. Do once more. Wetting lightly counter and top of dough. Round into a ball and you are done. Bulk ferment. Retard.or shape and then retard . No kneading needed. It’s all I ever do given the arthritis I now have in my hands. Also the “ no knead “ dough Tom posted above works even faster! There are links to my no knead breads as well. They are a very thick batter and baked in a well buttered pan . Just fold rest fold again and into greased baking pan to retard . No patting out needed. Or into bulk container retard. Take out as needed. The resting and a few folds and TIME develops as much gluten as you could possibly want. Good luck and ask any questions. Caroline
Wow, very helpful. Last night, I got an online copy of the artisan bread in 5 minutes a day and I like how it is written. What I found a bit challenging was the fact that the measures are in cups and not grams or percentages. Still getting my head around it
Taking direction from the comments, however, I mixed 1700 g of flour (50% strong white bread + 50% wholemeal) with 1300 ml of water (76%), and 14g of yeast (0.8%) and 25g of salt. Kitchen temperature is around 20 degrees at the moment. I let it sit for 45 mins. Folded after 45 mins, then a coil fold after 45 mins and another coil fold after 45 mins. This is how it looks now. I am debating whether to let it double in size at room temperature now and divide and shape into the tins and let it rise and bake or put in the fridge and do this tomorrow. Most likely, going for the first one (just to see how it turns out). Will keep everyone posted. If anyone has any comments or suggestions, please do let me know :)
Looking good! Remember that the dough will continue to ferment in the refrigerator as it cools down. As a rough guide, a dough ball it will act as if it gets another hour of fermentation. So put the portioned balls into the chill before they are fully proofed.
Even after it cools down all the way the dough will keep fermenting and rising slowly for several more days.
TomP
Oh, and if you decide to try refrigerating a shaped and (nearly) proofed loaf, you can bake it cold right from the refrigerator. Score right before baking. This uses more fridge space but really simplifies your schedule.
As I said and others have said time is your friend. There is no need to knead :) Move the dough around so that it gets aerated and the yeasts move around ( there is some debate about that but I can tell you that when I dump dough out of the bucket after retard and cut and shape with out any manipulation I can definitely see a difference in the loaves that came from the top of the bucket vs the ones that came from the bottom of the bucket . )
That seems a very low salt % , of course that is to taste but I do 2% which would be 34 g. Also the lower the salt the faster the dough rises as it is somewhat of a yeast inhibitor.
Will be wonderful if everyone was able to help you with this project to make it more efficient. Congratulations. c
Thank you! I will adjust salt next time :)
Thanks, Tom and Caroline. I baked it today itself and might prep another batch for cold fermentation soon. It was my first time handling such a large amount of wet dough. I think I added too much water as well on the surface when I was taking the dough out of the vessel for the divide and pre-shape. Another mistake that I think I made was baking it at 200 C. I didn't realise that high hydration breads would need to be baked at higher temperatures and for longer times unlike my usual sandwich breads which I bake at 180-200 for 40 mins. This one I baked for an hour at 200, so we shall see. The bread looks beautiful from the outside and we will see how the inside is after a couple of hours as I did face some trouble in shaping (maybe added too much flour).
Looks good to me. The circular pattern and the corner areas with a finer texture are caused by the shaping method, which you said was hard because of the high hydration. I'd say well done, especially for the first effort.
The real question is whether your fellow bread-eaters like it this way...
You are a success! How’s the flavor?
You’re right that you can reduce the amount of yeast with cold fermentation. Usually, about 0.2–0.5% of the flour weight is used for a longer rise. This can help balance the fermentation process since the cold temperature slows down the yeast activity and gives more time for developing more complex flavors.