Greetings from Germany, Non-German
Hi there, I am new to sourdough actually new to bread baking. I have been baking very diligently over the the last two weeks trying to pin down a 73-75% hydration basic recipe using Bread Maths.
My loaves aren't bad but not brilliant either. The flours in Germany and mostly in Europe soft wheat and I am desperately looking for european equivalents of say King Arthur Bread flour, Bob's Red Mill Artisan flour etc etc.
Today I baked this loaf and it turned out quite nicely, baked it as a gift so no crumb shot. My question no matter how proficient I am at slapping and folding, stretching and folding, coil and folding, watching the bulk ferment, dough temping etc, my dough is always loose and wettish by the time I get to shaping for the banneton. I do manage to get it shaped, always shaping to get that tension but it is messy unlike most of the videos I have watched where the shaping part is a joy moment !
I have been using a combination of german bread flour with 13% protein, 55%, Manitoba Ora with 14%, 35% and whole wheat 20%.
Would the hydration issue be the soft wheat flour absorption rate ?
Any pointers (especially flour sourcing) would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
That is such a beautiful-looking loaf that I can hardly grasp that you are new to bread baking. Could you say what is not satisfying you about the recipe you are working on right now?
The protein numbers you quoted are the same as or higher than the US flours you listed. But the measurement method is different between the US and Europe. To compare with US values, reduce the Euro. ones by 14%. I don't think you need higher protein levels to make great bread, but it may be that your flours don't have added diastatic malt (or the equivalent enzyme) whereas the US flours do. That could make doughs made with US flour ferment more vigorously. Someone here on the site will know about that.
Loose, wet dough is likely to mean either that the hydration is relatively high, or that the dough was not worked enough during bulk ferment. You can shower the dough with a lot of flour, which can help during shaping. With a loose dough it's better to skip the step of making a preform and go right to final shaping. The preform in home baking only serves to let the dough relax before final shaping in case it is too tight and elastic, but that doesn't apply for a loose dough.
For a wet, loose dough I have been stretching the dough into a large thin rectangle first, then folding that, then rolling up the folded dough into a log or cylinder. If it's still too loose, I then roll that cylinder up along its axis. This produces a fairly taut stubby cylinder that usually holds its shape well enough.
I hope there is something useful in all of this!
TomP
Thank you for your kind words and for taking so much time to answer.
When you say reduce US values by 14% may I ask to what you are referring to ? Hydration ? The malt mention ... I have malt in my cupboard, why I don't know but I know I have malt somewhere in the house hahahaha.
I have tried preshape, I have tried practically everything in my power to nail it down. I jot down start time, rest time, steps, dough temps, when I send the dough to bulk and the end bulk time, even the rise (I always have one loaf dough in a see through measuring jug to numerically judge rise percentage).
I have analysed my steps, the methodology, the bulk fermenting percentage. I have done boule shaping meaning not a log shape but right away a round gathering of the dough before tension building, batard shaping as a batard but also as pre to boule. I get there but it is a messy and not a pleasure at all. And all this is with a small quantity, my bread recipe is with 300g in total producing 500plus g after baking. Frustrating.
Therefore, I think within all this, it is the flour. I would like to get my hands on hard wheat bread flour to really find out if this is really the case. Or I tune down the hydration from 75% to 69%. I might do that this weekend.
Thank you once again, I hope I get more feedback especially on where I can reasonable purchase hard wheat white BF in Germany. I am calling some online german millers today.
Kind regards, Babe
I mean that a protein value of, say, 14% according to European methods would be reported in the US as 14% lower, or 12.3%. That's because the European method is based on the dry weight of flour while the US method is based on flour with a moisture content of 14%.
You problem could be the flour. But the first step in remedying a loose, wet dough should be to go to a lower hydration. Drop it very low and see how the loaves come out, and how well the shaping goes. Then you can start raising it and finally arrive at a good compromise between the crumb properties and shaping the loaves. If you still can't get what you want, then start experimenting with different flours.
One thing I would suggest is to watch some videos on making glass bread (Pan de Cristal) - and then try making some yourself. Here's one:
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/pan-de-cristal-recipe
Since I made glass bread a few times I've never had a problem with handling any kind of wet, sloppy, even pasty dough. It will never be as challenging as glass bread!
BTW, as to using 300g of flour - many of my bakes are that size.
Please don't get stressed over all the details you have mentioned. Panettone bakers may need to but most of the rest of us do not. What's the most important is to learn to read your dough. Times, percentages, and all the rest are only guidelines and can vary from person to person, flour to flour, and even for the same person at different times. Some of my bulk ferments have tripled in volume, others doubled or less, and they will all bake up into delicious, attractive bread.
TomP
yes I am planning to lower the hydration just to see. 300g are mini loaves but so good to eat fresh bread up and not have leftovers.
I have already watched the pan de cristal hahahahaha, I tell you it's all consuming, this new hobby. Panettone is in the cards but I have to build a strong base understanding what it all takes first.
What is your hydration like ? And what were the results of triple volume BF if I may ask pls ?
Thanks !
I tend to use hydrations in the low 70%s for mainly white all-purpose (US) flour doughs. I will sometimes get tripling when I start the dough late so that it ferments overnight. With these more inflated BFs, I think the pores of the crumb tend to be more even. People who get a lot of large, irregular holes seem to use shorter bulk ferments, I think.
Using more whole-grain flour (and especially rye flour) tends to produce more pasty doughs and want different hydration.
If you have not been adding the salt during the initial mixing, then you will find that putting it in at the beginning will produce a tighter, more elastic dough.
Yes I did a 20% rye instead of whole wheat and I didn't like it all that much but rye seems to be very well liked. I add salt after fermentalysing. I'll try adding the salt together with the levain next dough. Thanks !
I’m new to sourdough myself and cannot comment on European vs US flour percentages, but am enthralled by the shaping of your loaf. It looks a bit like the shaping for panis quadratis. Would you tell me how you achieved the shape?