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Gluten-free autolyse, pre-ferment etc.

pascaleewers's picture
pascaleewers

Gluten-free autolyse, pre-ferment etc.

Hi,Starting to experiment with Gluten-free Sourdough. What I don't understand/cant find info about is whether it makes sense to autolyse, pre-ferment part of the dough with the sourdough etc. in other words is it better to feed the yeast all at once or to buy feed them step by step? or am I missing something else?Thanks in advance!

Abe's picture
Abe

But it is limited. Can't answer all your questions but will part with any advice I can give. 

1. Gluten free goes from perfectly proofed to over proofed in a very short amount of time. It might look ok while baking but then as soon as you take it out it'll deflate very quickly. Better to err on under than over proofed. 

2. You can do a preferment but the final dough should really be one step. It can be done similar to a normal dough but I had better results in a single proof then baking when ready. If you're using gluten replacements they tend to work well with a single rise. They don't have the same structure to support two or more rises and tend to not do well with a degassing and shaping. So once the preferment has been done (flour, water and starter - gluten replacement goes into the final dough) make the dough and go straight into the final proofing. 

3. Autolyse. As in (2) they really don't need it because of the different method. I find with gluten free starters they seem to hydrate very well and then over time they leak water. 

Hope this helps. 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I have done some GF but am not an expert. Abe's answers were great but I can add a little.

First of all, ask yourself what the purpose is of these things we do with wheat based doughs.

AUTOLYSE is done to fully hydrate the flour, esp a whole wheat dough that has all kinds of branny bits (or sticks and logs, as my husband calls them). Most GF flours don't have a problem almost instantaneously sucking up all the moisture. The trick, sometimes, is to get that ratio correct.

PREFERMENT  (any variety) is done for hydration as well as flavor development. Sometimes it is used to enhance the yeast population, as well. I've never used this for GF doughs and I would be hesitant. As Abe says, GF doughs go from fermented to over fermented very quickly. I would be afraid I'd end up with bread dough soup.

I have found that most people starting into GF baking (myself included) expect to use the same principles for making GF breads as are used making wheat- based breads.First mistake. The Second mistake is that they are trying to find a GF replacement that is JUST LIKE the wheat- based bread. Myseldf included. So far, the lessons I have learned is that only the very basic ideas/techniques of wheat- based baking can be used for GF breads and -so far- I have not found direct substitutes. The GOOD news, however, is that I have found some unique deliciousness in my limited repertoire of GF baking. Looking back-I would equate GF baking more like cake baking and handling than wheat-based dough handling. Once you get the hang of how the ingredients handle and some taste-adding (natural) methods, I think it is easier. 

Have some delicous fun!

pascaleewers's picture
pascaleewers

Thank you for your answers. As a celiac I've never experienced wheat baking so it is a complete world apart for me! My limited experience with GF bread making tells me that deflating, pre-ferment and most wheat-based techniques are most likely not needed but all the websites on GF baking include them. I wish I could find a comparison somewhere! or the energy and knowledge to do it myself! 

Abe's picture
Abe

Then progress onto sourdough. Here are two gluten free recipes. The first is for buckwheat with eggs as a binder. The second is with brown rice flour and sorghum (but they may be substituted) and uses psyllium husk powder! 

http://www.thebreadkitchen.com/recipes/gluten-free-buckwheat-loaf-recipe/

https://food52.com/recipes/82284-gluten-free-bread-recipe

Once you have gotten the hang of it you can then adapt them for sourdough. 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

What kind of product do you want to make-a sandwich loaf/bun? Wrap? Toasting slice for PB&J?

From the search box here on TFL: search celiac:

Gluten Free baking | The Fresh Loaf

Here are some of the posts I contributed to: 

We actually did a Community Bake on GF breads. Good info and recipes.

SOme links to good GF sites and also recipes:

Help with gluten free breads | The Fresh Loaf

Some help with sourdough GF:

Gluten Free SD starter | The Fresh Loaf

Have fun!

Community Bake - Gluten Free Bread | The Fresh Loaf

pascaleewers's picture
pascaleewers

I have been baking for nearly 2 years now, exclusively with psyllium husk; my favorite sources are the ATK books, Gluten-free Gourmand and the Loopy Whisk. 

Actually there are tons of recipes out there and it is hard to decide what is worth the effort or not, hence my questions earlier. 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Laura T,Ars pistorica,and sharonk are all people that did a lot of posting on GF but years ago. Some of their posts had priceless and were full of info. Unfortunately, most of them have disappeared. Sharon K went on to write a book/create a website and she scrubbed TFL practically free of any of her posts that had methods or recipes. Ars has moved on,also, and any links that go to his website are dead. Laura T has some great posts that can be found here on TFL.

Overnight Sourdough Rice & Teff Baguettes | The Fresh Loaf

GF 24-hour Sourdough Bread Recipe (glutenfreegourmand.blogspot.com)

Sourdough Starter Ready to use in 3-7 Days (glutenfreegourmand.blogspot.com)

She seemed to get some good reviews so her recipes might prove interesting.

Good luck!

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

So far as I have been able to reconstruct, Professor Calvel's autolyse process is a rest period which allows the water in the dough to be fully absorbed by the flour during which some gluten is formed (this is a process that is initially fast but after 20-30 min at room temperature is pretty much complete).  I am not a baker of gluten free products even though my better half is a gluten-free person. When somebody figures it out I will be happy to copy their work.  You might be THE ONE who is successful.  And I wish you luck. But starch does not take much mixing to fully absorb available water and since there is no gluten to form, waiting longer seems pointless. So I suspect that autolyse is not relevant to gluten-free bread.

If you are making a sourdough with gluten free flour, then there will be some lactic acid bacteria that are consuming sugars released by amylase enzymes from the starch. If you have the instrumentation you might try tracking the pH and total titrateable acidity of the resulting dough. If it produces CO2 there should be some measurable weight loss in the process of fermentation (a miligram scale is good enough to observe that process with reasonably good resolution).

More yeast, faster process; higher temperature (up to ~30°C), faster process depending on a lot of other factors. You have not specified your end point and I have insufficient experience to know what constitutes good gluten-free bread, so you are pretty much free to experiment wildly. 

Have fun. Eat well. Report back what you discover!

pascaleewers's picture
pascaleewers

Thanks!

My end point is how long the bread survive on the kitchen counter - last one disappeared before I could compare it with the next one! so it couldn't be so bad :)

Reading all your comments make me realize that I actually replace most of my whole grain flour with the starter. I have a lot of starter and been using the artisanal buckwheat bread from the loopy whisk (actually sorghum because my starter is sorghum) because that's the one I can do on automatic and feel I can most easily compare to. 

Mixing the sourdough with the whole grain flour may makes more sense if you are using little sourdough or using a lot more whole grain flour. 

I read somewhere that autolyse for GF flour would be to make starches more available through enzymatic reaction to the yeast & co. However thinking about it I need the water to build the psyllium husk. I don't know how well the psyllium husk wouldn't hydrate with the flour etc. 

In the end it could be that this parameters won't do much at the household level. Ive tried to to my single fermentation in the fridge, on the countertop, so far it made no difference. I leave in the middle east - so it's really hot but the AC is constantly on, still I think it is a cosy atmosphere for the yeast. I might get a try with mixing the remaining flours and psyllium before adding the sourdough, it would be a kind of autolyse trial. 

 

Abe's picture
Abe

"I read somewhere that autolyse for GF flour would be to make starches more available through enzymatic reaction to the yeast & co". 

Without knowing which gluten free recipes you already follow many have starch as an ingredient. Usually about a 3rd of the flour.