September 2, 2023 - 10:42am
Is proofing sometimes optional?
I have a local friend who only bakes sourdough, and always exactly the same process. I was chatting with him about an issue I experienced with a recent bake of 60% rye/40% whole wheat, with CLAS. After kneading, the dough doubled in just over an hour. I did a few SNF's to degass, shaped for the pans, and then proofed for baking. After 60 minutes it had risen maybe 50%. And maybe 65% by 90 min. I baked it then and it was of course a bit too dense.
He suggested next time I should just skip the proofing stage. Knead, move them into the pan, let rise, and bake. No need to degass/proof.
Is this realistic?
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He suggested next time I should just skip the proofing stage. Knead, move them into the pan, let rise, and bake
Isn't this - into the pan and let rise - exactly what proofing is? It sounds like you mean "skip the bulk fermentation", is that right? Maybe there's a question of the various meanings of the phrase "proofing". Usually I see it used for the final rise (whether in a basket, pan, or free-standing).
Several well-known regional or national breads go right into the oven after bulk fermentation and shaping:
- Altamura bread: bulk fermented dough is scaled, preformed, rested for half an hour, then final shaped and baked immediately.
- Portugese broa: fermented dough is scaled, shaped, and baked directly.
Some pan breads get their bulk rise in the baking pan, with no separate proofing step.
I would say that if the final rising step takes longer than the bulk ferment, then something is off - perhaps all the available yeast food has been used up, perhaps there has been too much starch attack on the rye, or who knows what else. If that situation can't be taken care of, then by all means shape the loaf and skip the bulk ferment.
Let's not be pedantic. That is exactly how I used it.
Thanks, that's what I was asking about, and what my friend was recommending. I've not encountered it before.
I see you're using CLAS. Can you give the whole recipe and method? CLAS uses a LAB starter (this isn't going to leaven the bread) + IDY. Not sure why the IDY wouldn't leaven then dough properly.
But a bit beyond what I'm doing here!
Abe, thanks for your interest. This is my 2nd iteration based on one of Chainbaker's recipes
How to Make an Amazing Eastern European Style Rye Bread
with some ingredient tweaks, no cold ferment, and high-altitude adjustments. I made the first one without CLAS and in a bread machine (Panasonic BT65P) and it was wonderful.
Adapted for CLAS:
- For the scald -
50g whole rye flour
28g Solod (fermented rye malt powder)
50g yellow corn meal (replaces potato mash)
9g caraway seeds
200g boiling H2O
- For the main dough -
230g AP flour + 125g H2O (autolysed ~45 min.)
170g whole rye flour (fresh-milled)
30g barley malt syrup
1 Tsp salt
1-1/8 tsp SAF instant dry yeast
150% Rye CLAS
125g CLAS = 50g Rye & 75g H2O
Method:
Tastes is excellent but the loaves are dense and "squat".
You have replaced mashed potato (hydrated) with cornmeal. Do you make polenta with it first (to the consistency of mashed potato) before using? You also did not reduce the rye enough to make up for the rye within the CLAS.
Try something like this...
IngredientsFor the scald –
50g (1.75oz) whole rye or white rye flour
30g (1oz) fermented rye malt powder
50g (1.75oz) polenta made to the consistency of mashed potatoes
10g (0.35oz) caraway seeds
200g (7oz) boiling water
For the main dough –
250g (8.8oz) white bread flour
150g (7oz) whole rye or white rye flour
125g (7oz) cool water
10g (0.35oz) salt
30g (1oz) barley malt syrup or other sweet syrup
5g (0.17oz) instant dry yeast or 6g (0.21oz) active dry yeast or 15g (0.5oz) fresh yeast
+ 125g CLAS 50g rye + 75g H2O
Also, for now, take out the autolyse. Good idea to try and solve it one step at a time taking out other variables. You have also altered the method. Try sticking to the 30 min plus a cold ferment.
: The cormeal definitely becomes mash in the scald!
: When I originally did this in the bread machine w/o CLAS, I added 15g H2O to compensate.This time the extra overall hydration needed came from the CLAS.)
: I started out with 145g rye in the main dough, but added another 25-30g during mix/knead. This is not by any means a moisture-starved recipe. It was quite wet and sticky, and difficult to handle. I have to question solutions that would make it even more so...
That is a possibility. But is it responsible for the final rise "running out of gas"? And if I follow mariana's suggestion of skipping/shortening the knead, then there won't be any opportunity for gluten to develop.
Yes, I'm expresssly doing this to skip the cold ferment. It worked the first time.
My experience with CLAS thus far is that the yeast action is not at all hindered, it is very happy with CLAS in the mix. I typically have to back off the yeast amount a bit when adding it to a recipe.
I plan on making this bread again in the next day or two with whatever adjustments seem most promising.
The mashed potato is hydrated before it goes into the scald. The cornmeal goes into the scald not hydrated. It might become a mash within the scald but the overall hydration is now less. This will make the final dough heavier.
You added CLAS which has 50g rye + 75g water.
You reduced the water by 75g from the final dough but you only reduced the rye by 30g. Now the final dough is even dryer!
What will make a big difference is making polenta first to the consistency of mashed potatoes. Then you don't have to worry about the hydration in the scald. Then adjust both the rye and water in the final dough taking into account the CLAS.
Rye needs the correct hydration and can be very dense if that's not taken into account.
I don't think there's any issue with the yeast running out of gas. It hasn't got time to be over fermented. In fact you're making it the bread even quicker than the recipe suggests. Plus, it's got added sugar for the yeasts to feed.
I just don't see moving 15g H2O from the main dough into the scald being a decisive factor in the single problem I experienced.
My notes from the first BM bake say:
Autolysed AP flour. Very wet
Mixed dough WAY TOO WET. Added 1 tbsp rye and 2-3 of AP. Still very sticky but manageable.
I bake at 7,000 ft., and I quite normally have to add a little H2O and significantly reduce yeast (33-50%) for a sea-level recipe to work. So to encounter one that is too wet and poops out on the 2nd rise is unusual.
I appreciate your input, but I will not be adding more H2O to this.
Quite similar to your bread; here's how I did it:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69830/20220129-backstube-zopf-flocken-sesam
Yippee
I generally use the terms outlined in the Bread Bakers Guild of America to identify the stages of fermentation.
FIRST FERMENTATION is the initial resting time after mixing used to develop flavor and strength in the dough. The length will vary, based on the formulation and type of bread being made.
AUTOLYSE is an optional step of the mixing process that involves a pre-mixing of all or a percentage of the flour and water in the formula. This pre-mix is just to the incorporation stage and is followed by a resting time of generally no less than 20 minutes and up to a few hours. The salt, yeast and any preferments are generally left out of the autolyse unless the preferment is liquid and therefore must be added to hydrate the flour in the final dough. The main benefit of an autolyse is improved extensibility during all stages of the baking process.
FINAL PROOFING is the last stage of fermentation before baking the bread that starts as soon as the bread is shaped and ends with baking. The goal is for the gluten structure to trap the maximum amount of gas produced by the yeast before the tolerance point is reached, after which point the dough would be over proofed, and the volume and structure of the bread would be negatively affected.
Cheers,
Gavin.
What you are asking about is called no-time dough method.
With CLAS, especially if you prepared a rye sponge with CLAS, bulk fermentation (the first proof) lasts only about 20min, to let gluten from the wheat portion of the dough to form and to let yeast to rehydrate and to wake up, then shape, proof and bake.
I have never heard about S&Fs being necessary in a 60% rye bread dough unless you add tons of dry vital wheat gluten to it... It does not even need to be degassed before dividing it and shaping it or panning it.
When such dough is baked in pans, you do not need to shape it. Just drop a chunk of dough into a greased pan, smooth the top with the back of a spoon moistened with water, and let it rise in pans before baking.
Well that's interesting, Mariana. So the 10 min of kneading was unnecessary?
The S&F's were done on a generously-floured table, mostly to make the very-wet dough more manageable.
Shaping in this case was just halving it for the two small pans.
Yes, such doughs do not need kneading (no gluten development because there is so little of it and there is too much interference for it to form strong continuous sheets of gluten), just mixing to homogeneity.
How long that will take depends on what you use. In a food processor it will take about 20 sec, while by hand it might as well take full ten minutes if there is a lot of dough. Mixers will be somewhere in between depending on their mixing speed.
I will significantly shorten the knead time when I make it again in the next day or two.
After autolyse, mixed everything together but the rye flour. It took quite a while (5 min?) to get it to combine well with the already-quite-stringy autolysed dough. Then mixed the rye in, and kneaded until it showed signs of cohesion (2 min?). Let it sit for 10 min or so, then moved it into the pan and let rise. In 80 min it had doubled. Baked @ 400º convection w/ steam for 15 min, then 30 min no steam, for 201º inside. Looks great, didn't collapse. Resisted temptation and will let it cool overnight. More manana.
This is the size and density that I was expecting. Nice cruchy, chewy crust, just-right density inside. Reducing/eliminating knead time did it. Thanks for the suggestions.
The cracking on the top might have been avoided had I poked holes in the top like the original. I tweaked the spice mix and lowered amounts, and love the taste. A couple comments:
: It's interesting that, at the same temperature, it took only 45 minutes of bake time vs 60 total for Chainbaker. I suspect my oven runs hotter than his at a given setting.
: I normally avoid all-aluminum tins but this one worked fine for this bake. Maybe with convection one doesn't need the btu storage capacity of steel?
Congratulations, Precaud! That is one very good looking loaf of bread. I am so happy that you have figured it out! I also envy you. I wish I had a slice of that right now. :)
mariana, your advice was spot-on!
Chainbaker sez this bread has long shelf life... I'll set a couple slices aside for you :)
:))))
Thank you for taking pictures of its crumb as well. It is very close to the original Belarusian bread that Chainbaker attempted to reproduce. Success, definitely a succesful bake!
and good to know!
I attribute that, at least in part, to CLAS. Everything I've baked with it has had a more consistent crumb structure. In fact, I think its main benefit is as a dough conditioner more than a taste enhancer.
I bake similar breads and I don't knead at all. I mix with a spoon until there are no lumps of flour left (maybe 1 minute) and load into pans. No gluten to develop here, just hoping for a good rise. Then I leave the bread alone, depending on temperature, for 4 to 8 hours and bake. The trick is to wait for maximum rise (there will be no oven spring with whole rye), but not so long that the bread collapses and comes out concave on top.
for the confirmation, Borqui.