New to Ankarsrum - how the kneading process should be like
I've been using Ankarsrum to make loaf bread with higher hydration (75%) for 1 month. Overall, I'm happy with the low noise level and how gentle it kneads the dough, and absolutely the outlook. I really want to fully understand the potential of this machine since I've heard so many good words about it even though there's also a learning curve. However, I've had a hard time adjusting my kneading process and it takes too long(40-60min). I only use dough roller so far.
Here is my process:
1. mix everything other than salt and butter, autolyse in fridge for 1-2 hour
2. Use 2-3 clock speed to develop dough gluten to rough window pane. And then add butter/salt.
3. Use 1-2 clock speed to mix in butter/salt. Increase speed to 3-4 until window pane. Sometimes I increase speed to 5-6 for higher hydration dough.
There are three major questions:
1. Does it impact the gluten development if the dough knife cuts into the dough ball? This happens a lot when the hydration is higher. I understand that the dough knife should be used when ingredients like butter is added to help with the absorbtion. However, sometimes the dough knife cuts into the dough and pulls the gluten. I tried to leave it alone as many suggested to let the machine do its work. However, the dough looks less smooth every time it happens and it actually makes the total kneading time longer. I think it actually tears the gluten. Thinking about the the stretch and fold when handing the dough, if the streach is more than what the dough can tolerate, the gluten will actually be torn. It's the similar concept here. In this case, how can I adjust to make this less happen? Otherwise, I have to hold the knife all the time and can't walk away. (It totally loses the purpose of the timer on the machine).
Video - https://youtube.com/shorts/6X_nsnS4uB8?feature=share
2. When should the dough be a ball? And when should the dough be a donut shape? My dough was originally a ball and then a donut at the final stage. Sometimes it's the opposite. I'm not sure which way it more efficient.
Video (donut at final stage) - https://youtube.com/shorts/IqKdUc8xQNc?feature=share
3. How to deal with the dough behind the dough knife? There are always part of the dough gets stuck behind the dough knife. I have to use scraper from time to time to clean it. Otherwise, it won't be fully kneaded and eventually those dough will cause pulling effect and thus make the knife cuts into the main dough.
Any suggestion on how to make the kneading more efficient is very appreciated! I know there are many posts and tons of helpful suggestions on TFL but I still haven't figured it out after 1 month. Thank you!!!!
Hi Qinsby,
What is the total weight of your dough?
You may be over-thinking this a bit. Bread dough is very resilient. Even after the machine kneading, the dough will build gluten and repair itself. The great majority of Ank users use the roller, but the dough hook is my favorite by far. Most of my doughs these days are intensely kneaded to achieve a very high gluten development.
You may consider developing your gluten more before adding the butter. When adding the butter do so in small increments and wait until it is fully incorporated before adding more.
There are a host of excellent bakers on the forum with lots of Ankarsrum experience. They may have other suggestions.
If I can help more, let me know.
Danny
Hi Danny,
Thank you so much for your suggestion! The overall weight of the dough in the video is 1lb. Usually I make 2lb but it's the similar behavior. I add butter when I can stretch the dough to thin layer but easy to poke through. Is it a good timing? I just really struggle with the dough knife cutting through the dough. From what you said, I want to believe it's just me not used to see how this machine works and I have to trust it.
I have another question from my testing today though. I usually autolyse 1-2 hours after mixing flour, water and starter in the fridge since it's very hot here. After I take the dough out fridge, it's about 50F. Can I immediately start to knead it in Ankarsrum? I notice the dough is quite stiff since it's cold and then then start to loose when dough temperature rises. However, due to this change, I can't tell if I need to add more water until it reaches certain temperature. Do you have any good suggestion on determine the bassinage?
Actually I haven't tried the dough hook. It sounds really fun! Let me try in another similar batch and update my finding here :)
Quinsby, as to the tearing, I don't think the knife is actually tearing the dough, instead, the gluten has not developed enough to get the dough to stick together enough yet, and that is why it is separating when it goes through the scraper.
If you are autolysing, I can't imagine why it would take more that 10 to 12 minutes at the most to develop a great window pane - at least that is my experience with whole wheat.
I don't think there is a problem kneading cold dough - I normally store my flour in the freezer, so it is fairly cold when it starts. I am not a big fan of bassinage with the Ank, I have never seen the need, even with high hydrations, I just put it all in, do a short mix ( a minute or two ) then cover the bowl for autolyse, then add the starter and salt, and turn it one , set it for the right time, then come back and see if it will pass the windowpane test. Note that some stop short of the windowpane to allow further development with one or two stretch and folds. Also, I am not sure why sometimes you get a donut shape and sometimes a ball, but I think the donut shape is more common with lower hydration.
Thank you for the comment Barry. Actually today I let the knife cut through the dough and it actually developed pretty good gluten structure as well. However, this behavior consistently happened through the kneading process, even a few minutes before the window pane.
I think my extra long kneading time is probably due to the high hydration with fruit yeast water(I don't use water). The fruit yeast water is acidic and makes the dough harder to achieve window pane. Therefore, I reduced hydration by 5% today and it's actually much faster to get window pane!
I'm not a fan of bassinage either. But it seems that Ank is very gentle and probably bassinage can work better with high hydration. I'll keep experimenting with it.
Glad to hear it is working for you - I think the Ank is just a really well engineered machine - true, it doesn't function like a KA, but that is both good and bad.
Since open crumb is not my goal, the dough is intensely mixed to maximum gluten development. Machine mixing takes a long time. Because of this heat is a major consideration. The dry ingredients are put into the covered metal mixing bowl and kept in the freezer overnight. NOTE - The starter/levain is left out and mixed with all other ingredients when the dough is mixed. The wet ingredients are stored in the refrigerator overnight also. This way the dough can be mixed a long time until thoroughly developed without overheating. The final dough is between 78-80F upon completion. This procedure produces panned bread with slices too large to fit them into the toaster sideways.
I'm contemplating getting an Ankarsrum so just want to get more info. How much time does it take for you to achieve window pane? My Cuisinart stand mixer is OK but I was never fully satisfied by its kneading ability.
Hi Bitcat,
Now I figured the most efficient way to achieve window pane for me is to autolyse with appropriate hydration for 1-2 hours. After that, it takes about 10-20min to get window pane depends if you add butter or extra water. It will take longer to get window pane if you autolyse higher hydration. For instance, I use Bob artisan flour, it's quite easy to autolyse with 70% hydration and add extra water when kneading. However, the kneading time is longer for 75%-80% hydration. Hopefully it helps.
I've owned an Ankarsrum (actually a used N26 Electrolux) for 6 to 8 years now. I'm quite happy with the machine as a general purpose stand mixer. I especially like it for mixing and kneading bread dough.
Using the roller and scraper, my usual kneading time after 20 min.autolaise, was about 15 min. sometimes a bit longer.
I've recently begun to look at spiral mixers, and have been impressed at how rapidly they develop dough. I even considerd buying one. Watching a spiral mixer work, it occurred to me that the Ank shared the bowl turning action of a spiral, the big difference being a spinning hook and a breaker bar. As I watched, I pondered how I could mimic the spiral action with the features of the Ank. While the Ank lacks the ability to turn the dough round and round, the turning bowl does move it, and the roller powered by the dough itself, spins and twists the dough. However, the main feature of the spiral that is missing with the Ank, is the breaker bar. I thought if I swing the scraper off the bowl wall toward the roller, it in fact could act like a breaker bar. I decided to experiment.
Reading complaints about some spiral mixers, I decided I wanted the scraper to be as close to the roller as I could get it. Inorder to do that, I needed to set the spring arm at about the "4 o'clock" position. Before doing that, I proceeded to mix some dough, rustic Italian I think, using the machine in the usual way. After autolaise, I went ahead with the experiment. I set the spring arm with the roller, started the machine, and by hand, held the scraper as close to the roller as possible. The dough, powered by the turning bowl, rotated the roller, which twisted most of the dough between it and the front edge of the scraper. The action continued quite smoothly and the dough began developing. After about 8 min. I had perfectly developed dough. I think the best I had ever developed. I was hooked!
Now manually holding the scraper next to the roller was time consuming and I wanted to do something about that. I decided to use a zip tie to hold the scraper in place. This worked very well. All that's lost is a zip tie every time I knead dough, and they are pretty inexpensive when bought in bulk. I used this method for a couple of more bakes, with continued success, but I did miss the wall scraping action of the scraper. I happen to have an N24 Electrolux as well as my N26. The N24 and earlier machines have a 10mm scraper shaft, rather than the 8mm currently used. The 10mm shaft is the same size as the Ank's hook. I realized I could put the N24 scraper in the hook hole, set it over the N26 scraper that was zip tied to the arm, and pretty much restore the bowl scraping action. I've used this set up several time with excelent results.
Since the old (10mm shaft) scrapers don't seem to be available any more, I bought a current replacement, and bushed it's shaft so it fits snuggly in the hook hole. This is now my kneading set up. The new process has cut my kneading time by at least half, with better developed dough results, as well. Thought some of you might be interested. Jim
Jim, that sounds interesting, a photo or two would be great. BTW, if you have a small jewelers screwdriver, you can pry the tab in the zip tie mechanism up, that lets you pull the end through the mechanism and reuse it.
Sorry, I don't have a camera so I can't post photos. Jim