Freshly milled whole wheat - reduce yeast, sugar, or rise time?
Hello,
I'm still trying to perfect my sandwich loaf. Today I milled some hard white/red berries for a loaf. I autolysed for 20 minutes just to verify the amount of water I'd need. Added everything and needed into a nice ball. I did sift a quite bit of the bran out but plenty remained because it's a pretty coarse sieve. This was utilizing an online recipe that I slightly adjusted.
There are three variables here at play. When I stuck the loaf into the oven it looked fine but it ended up coming out flat, so over proofed. I should've verified with a poke test... From now on I will.
In order to prevent this in the future, which of the three variables should I change while retaining as much quality of the bread as I can? I understand reducing one thing will always change the flavor profile some how, but I want a solid structure and a proper oven spring. I also don't want to waste any ingredients experimenting so I figured I'd ask here first.
Based on the fact it looked about the same 20 minutes after second rise, and 45 minutes after second rise, I'd presume the fermentation happened very quickly. I don't think reducing rise time to 20 minutes is a good option.
What do you think?
Thanks
I would reduce the yeast. I bake whole wheat sourdough pan bread, and I use a pretty small percentage of prefermented flour. And even then, I overproof if I'm not paying close enough attention.
I think increasing the sugar would slow down fermentation, but I like to avoid too much added sugar.
I've been getting a new starter going with the new source of freshly milled flour, I think it could be usable tomorrow. I wonder if it's time to make the transition to entirely using my starter for even non-sourdough breads, except for maybe non-loafy things such as pretzels or pizza dough, but even then I'm sure I could.
Today I used commercial yeast.
What % prefermented flour would you use for a 1-2lb typical sandwich loaf? I'm cooking in the Emile Henry loaf pan.
Strictly speaking, any bread leavened by sourdough would be considered sourdough.
I'm a bit of a purist and prefer to only use wild yeast. But commercial yeast still has its place. I wouldn't abandon altogether if you have breads that you like using commercial yeast.
My current understanding is that the acidity of the sourdough helps tenderize the crumb. This is useful for 100% whole wheat breads.
I use 4% prefermented flour for my whole wheat pan loaves. I don't use freshly milled flour, but I do use a local flour that I believe is milled shortly before shipping. I think you may be able to get away with using even less prefermented flour.
Alright, I think I'll keep using commercial yeast for a loaf until I get the yeast amount, sugar and timing correct and it isn't the height of half a loaf!
Then I can transition to my wild starter. When I first got going I ordered a "sourdough starter kit" online. No idea what was in it now, I'm sure I could check in a moment but it's just funny to think about. For my new starter I put yeast and water in a jar and let it sit for a day...
That thing was already going full speed the first day, I guess the freshly milled organic flour contains quite a bit of goodies the yeast enjoy. For tomorrow's loaf, I will try reducing the yeast by 1/4 - 1 tsp., not sure yet, and perhaps increasing the flour 1/4 - 1/2 a cup. Even at maximum rise today it wasn't as tall as I'd like.
Edit: for tonight's loaf* I have the night to myself :)
You might want to search for 100% whole wheat bread on this site. Take any advice I give with a grain of salt. I still have a lot to learn.
Are you using a digital scale? This could help you dial in the best amount of commercial yeast to use for your loaf. It's possible that using teaspoons may not give you enough precision.
Yes sorry, I have already begun my second loaf...
So far I have calculated:
375g hard white berry (some bran sifted)
150g hard red berry (some bran sifted)
335g water added for 1hr autolyse
1 tsp sugar
1 1/4 tsp yeast + #g water
11g salt after incorporating yeast
I guess I will update this as it happens!
You will probably want to increase the hydration. Whole wheat flour soaks up a lot more water than white flour. I typically use 82% on the low end to 88% on the high end, and I still have a relatively stiff dough. I've seen whole wheat pan loaves that use a hydration of 100% (and more.)
Yes you're right, I'm at almost 65% for autolyse and it's hard as a brick. Whole wheat + freshly milled, I just forget to adjust things like water and the main issue of this thread, the super quick fermentation! Hopefully tonight I will have a workable recipe. I'll be updating my recipe post as I proceed.
Update: it turned out better but it's still flat on top. I've been doing a relatively short first rise followed by a longer second rise as per the recipe. Whenever I make it again I will be doing the opposite which is far more conventional.
Update 2: I managed to get a loaf that didn't fall last night! I used the poke test to find out if it was ready. The problem is since the second rise is so quick, it's not very tall, like a normal "sandwich bread". Is there any way to tackle this problem during 2F or is this what I should expect with freshly milled whole wheat?
2F needs more time for a higher rise, but any more time and it will be over proofed. What am I missing here?
You really do need to read about how to handle WW-it is a lot different than handling a dough made with AP or bread flour.
HYDRATION: WW needs more than AP flour but mostly it needs time to absorb the water. Every bag of flour has different hydration needs so there is no magic formula for exactly how much to add for each bake. This is when a baker skill comes in. Make the same recipe about 20-30 times and you will have it figured out. Keep notes.
TIME: WW needs time to soak up the water into the branny bits. A WW dough can seem almost like a slurry or a soft, sticky mess of a dough perhaps with a watery ooze but if you let it sit (30 min, 1 hr, overnight in refrig), the dough will turn into a soft, tacky (like a post-it note) dough that will bake into a soft,flexible sandwich loaf.
WINDOWPANE: A crucial step to developing a nice crumb, whether in a lean or enriched loaf. especially important in a WW dough. Anything to enhance developing the starchy gel component-tang zhong, rye flour or soft flour addition, etc. Knead to windowpane-even with a WW dough.
Txfarmer doesn't post here anymore but her posts were wonderful. HERE is a great post for you to read re: WW
Peter Reinhart has a 100%WW sandwich loaf made with a biga. It can be adapted to natural levain. Use the search feature but HERE is one link.
Good links in THIS post.
HERE is another.
Some more BASICS here.
So get some reading in. Choose a recipe and get a notebook. Make the same loaf multiple times changing only 1 thing. It sounds tedious but is actually deliciously fun!
Have some delicious fun and be prepared for a learning curve.
I don't know if can do much more after all the reading and video watching I've done (Ell's Everyday Wholegrain Sourdough). At this point it's experimental but I also don't like to waste ingredients. I'd rather just keep asking. So far so good with all the things I've asked, they've helped me personally.
and that is why I'm asking about the final issue I'm having. The end size of the loaf after the second rise, not the second rise itself (which is mostly related to the poke test and knowing when to bake), not the quantity of dough I'm using in pounds, but the size of the bread once baked after a quick second rise.
I don't understand if using less yeast would make it take more time before it's ready to bake, but leave the size unadjusted? Or would using less yeast, making it take more time, and also cause it to rise to a larger final shape?
I autolysed, I added more water to form a higher hydration, I added a bit more salt to ensure the loaf didn't fall, I kneaded for 10 minutes, I baked at extremely high temperatures with steam.
I have been able to make larger, sandwich sized whole wheat loaves aplenty before I switched to freshly milled flour.
It's hard to summarize what I'm trying to describe for some reason. I just want a larger loaf after second rise, but I can't seem to figure out the variables when using freshly milled flour. I'm not entirely sure the yeast is related to the size of the end loaf as much as it is its proof, and just when it's ready to bake. If I use less yeast and allow it more time, I don't think that will necessarily increase the size.
I can verify the below because I have used a similar weight of flour in my usual whole wheat bread recipe and the bread becomes gigantic.
TL;DR : bread size not large enough final rise but is proofed and ready to bake.
The learning curve is not fast. I get it.
Less yeast: Longer rise time, better flavor. pH can also change and along with enzyme formation, it can degrade the gluten strands. Again, it's a balance-gluten strong enough to hold together, weak enough to stretch long for rise.
More hydration: Can allow dough to be softer so it can stretch and raise higher. Too soft and it will rise and fall. Too stiff and it can't rise-it is a balance.
Windowpane: Holds air in the bubbles. Too stiff and they break easily. Too soft and they pop.
Moderate oven temp. I didn't notice but this last reply you mentioned a very hot oven. WW generally requires a lower temp-375F- and a little longer bake. Steam can be used. That might be the next variable to try.
Patience is the most neglected ingredient! While developing a recipe, it is essential for success.
Howdy K! I also use a portion of freshly milled flour for some of my multi-seed bakes and once I started using a fermentation jar (check out Benito's posts on this subject, here on this site, but essentially taking a small piece of dough and placing it in a very small jar and marking the starting point) I started getting MUCH better results. I think the combination of WW flour with the added variable of it being freshly milled makes everything a little trickier. The dough became much easier to judge when fermentation was getting to the 'sweet spot' once I started using the jar. I don't ever use the poke test any more because what's going on in the jar tells me everything I need to know. I found out I was actually under-fermenting these loaves rather than over. My recipe also includes some honey and seeds, which I think was counter-balancing any quickened fermentation that would normally be taking place from the freshly ground wheat berries. The aliquot/fermentation jar is a simple, easy step and has been a game-changer for me since it most accurately reflects what is going on for that particular dough (given all the multitude of variables possible from bake to bake). Maybe give it a try and see what happens!
Thank you I will look into it immediately.